Provide the Moon with atmosphere - oxygen one

karov · 2005-05-03 01:28:32

There were lot of talk about terraforming the Moon, but having in mind the geological characteristics of this body and the weak gravity this may occur to be very hard job.

But innitially we could provide it with say 100 miliBars of pure O2 atmoshere. These 100mB of O2 are the same as the partial presure of O2 in the Earth`s atmosphere on 5 km. altitude - i.e. brethable - there are permanent settlements on such hights in the terran mountains.

The O2 could be extracted via pyrolising the lunar rocks - where the oxygen is primary constituent by percentage. The resulting free metal aluminium, iron, titanium, etc. silicon would be use for constructional purposes on ground or in orbit. The O2 would be just waste like the biogenic O2 on Earth. On the Moon it would be technogenic.

Deatails later.

karov · 2005-05-03 05:07:58

The Earth has 5x10exp18 kg of atmosphere. For 1/10th surface pressure provision by pure O2 ( having 1/6th surface gravity and 1/16th surface area) we need about 2x10exp17 kg of O2 liberated from the rocks.

The Moon crust composition: Crust composition
Oxygen 43%
Silicon 21%
Aluminium 10%
Calcium 9%
Iron 9%
Magnesium 5%
Titanium 2%
Nickel 0.6%
Sodium 0.3%
Chromium 0.2%
Potassium 0.1%
Manganese 0.1%
Sulfur 0.1%
Phosphorus 500 ppm
Carbon 100 ppm
Nitrogen 100 ppm
Hydrogen 50 ppm
Helium 20 ppm

The oxigen is trapped mainly in silicon and aluminium componds with very strong covalent bonding, but subject of pyroilothic brake up. The lunar regolith and crust could be cushed to constituent elements which to be literally distiled using on=ground solar furnaces. The solar furnaces can be made as relativelly suimple euipment using solar powered self-replicating system. The silicon for photovoltaics, the aluminium , iron and titanium for construction purposes...

Releasing the oxygen from several cubical kilometers of regolith/crust would provide all the 100 mB O2 atmosphere necessary.
Advantages of the "oxigenated" Moon:
-atmosphere for aerobraking of other usfull stuff ( carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen) for further terraforming if decided.
- free oxidizer for variety of chemical power machines - cars, tractors, airbreathing jets.
- aeorbraking of earth-launched shuttles...
etc.

The necesarry CHN for further terraforming may come from the outer Main asteroid belt in form directly of plastic solar sails/parachutes -- also exponentially produced by SRS.
NO matter what kind a Moon with atmosphere is better than without.

Palomar · 2005-05-03 07:50:00

*I'm sure you're aware that the Moon's surface gravity is only 0.17? Good luck with attempts at maintaining an atmosphere there.

--Cindy

SpaceNut · 2005-05-03 10:03:44

So we will create the first magnesphere using solar cells, nuclear reactors and super conducting cables to make a field store enough to hold it in place...

dicktice · 2005-05-03 11:21:49

She's right, of course. But beneath domes suitably filtered for UV, and below surface, the Moon is an ideal alternative place to settle, given all that oxygen potential. Deeper down, I wonder what we'll find in the way of mineral ores. Straight down, a hundred miles and more?

BWhite · 2005-05-03 11:43:44

*I'm sure you're aware that the Moon's surface gravity is only 0.17? Good luck with attempts at maintaining an atmosphere there.
--Cindy

Atmosphere? How about some mood candles and new curtains?

[This post will auto-edit to something less trollish within 4 hours]

Palomar · 2005-05-03 11:54:14

*I'm sure you're aware that the Moon's surface gravity is only 0.17? Good luck with attempts at maintaining an atmosphere there.
--Cindy
Atmosphere? How about some mood candles and new curtains?
[This post will auto-edit to something less trollish within 4 hours]

*Ha ha. I'm going for lava lamps and beaded curtains.

On Mars. Fah on the Moon.

--Cindy

Shaun Barrett · 2005-05-03 17:56:07

I agree with those who raise the problem of Luna's 0.17g. It occurs to me that many people underestimate the longer-term difficulties of this problem.
I once read somewhere that the Moon might retain an atmosphere for some 3000 years, which seemed to be a reasonable length of time and might make the creation of an atmosphere there worthwhile. Then, as some of you may remember, I had an argument with someone (the name escapes me, apologies) about the ability of Earth to retain hydrogen. In the course of that argument, I was obliged to investigate how long gases are retained in different gravity wells. My own investigations led me to the conclusion Luna would be lucky to retain an atmosphere for 300 years, never mind 3000!
I think the Moon would lose its air almost as fast as we could create it.

In addition, that 0.17g makes longer-term settlement there problematic from a biological point of view. Even Mars' 0.38g probably precludes new Martians from ever visiting Earth and may even have in-situ drawbacks we're currently unaware of.
It's hard to imagine humans remaining healthy in 0.17g for very long (I'm prepared to be corrected on this) and I'm quite sure they'd never be able to return to good ol' Terra Firma.

Low gravity is a very real problem I think many of us tend to ignore. ???

karov · 2005-05-04 02:15:24

Yes, Low gravity is VERY seroius problem, both for atmosphere retention and for keeping the orthopedic status of humans intact. But I think that for these two bad conseqencs we have cure in scientific, if not in technological terms.

1. The atmosphere could be kept from dissipation by force. Without solid sheet roofing that could be achieved as many times pointed via specially configured artificial magnetosphere.
The atmosphere gases are ionised in order to be hauled with greater than the escape velocity. The same tech as the M2P2 propulsion could be implemented on planetary-size scale. The opportunity to run a circular superconducting cable along the lunar equator or better across the poles is many times discussed. This cable serves also as planetary energy storage device and transport highway. Diverting modest energy flow from the solar plenty through the atmosphere retention system is something that has biospherical analog on Earth - the biomass keeps the non-equilibrium O2 level high for billions of years. It is not necessary even to push every trying to escape atom straight down, we need may be just a way to decelerate and crumple them infront the moon, which to sweep them back via its orbital motion.

2. The medical issues of low G for humans -- there is way to manipulate the bones nano-mechanically to keep their strenght without the everiday 1 G strain.

These problems are surmountable using means which have further economical sence , than only providing the necessary effect. Giving the Moon atmosphere is sound in economical aspect since the oxygen would be just local manifacture of metals and silicon waste product. The 100 mBars of oxigen could be even produced during the extraction of the necessary materials for global lunar rail-way + power + atmosphere retention system`s materials.
With only one step - introducing Self-replicating manifacture on the lunar surface, which to de-oxigenate the rocks using solar energy, we could transform the entire body in habitable ultra-industrial park.

The same way as Lovelock`s Gaia Earth possesses homeostatic behaviour for keeping the global terran conditions in life compatible frame, the lunar "Selena" ( name it!) - design technosphere can make and keep it within livable range of conditions.

In Earth-moon`s L3 point we could deploy several millions of km2 of solar cells. L3 is better than the others cause the Earth is permanently hiden by the lunar mass from use of this enormous energy for harmfull purposes. To L2 and L3 a orbital elevators can be built using existing materials ( glass wiskers from the moon soil for example).

benlinliu · 2005-05-04 04:32:21

the sun`s light would decompose O2 to O, then O will escape, so no possible to maintain a atmosphere on the moon.

My mather-language is not English, so I can not post article easily now, I shall try to do this easilier in future.

I have proposed a plan how to get and home on Mars, I shall translate into English, and post in the foru.

This is my first post on the forum.

Shaun Barrett · 2005-05-04 17:32:59

A warm welcome to New Mars, Benlinliu.
Don't worry about the language problem.
I think your English is good and your meaning is clear enough.

Shaun Barrett · 2005-05-04 18:18:36

Hi Karov!
I don't disagree in principle with your reasoning on planetary engineering. We differ only in terms of technological feasibility, time-frame, and maybe the desirability of the schemes you describe.
You think big! You describe a time when investment in spa

SpaceNut · 2005-05-04 21:32:33

Would O3 (ozone) have the same problem? Also orbiting solar panels used to generate electrical fields to repel escaping gas or to ionize it, would that help?

Commodore · 2005-05-04 22:58:07

Your going have a hard time getting a Earth like atmosphere with the volitiles (or lack there of) on the moon.

Your going to want to bring in astroids for the others.

On a side note, would it be possible to bring in as astroid slow enough to not make a big mess?

I saw a show on the discovery channel about how ships are brought right onto Indian beaches to be scrapped, and thought it would be a novel solution to the problem of low/no g astroid mining. Of course it would only be practical for small ones, probably less than a kilometer around, but its not like were going to run out of those anytime soon. Plus this way you get much more of the wanted resources in one place, instead of blasting it everywere.

Robert M. Blevins · 2005-05-04 23:31:45

The moon is never going to have an atmosphere, due to the low gravity.

People working on the moon for the long term will have to move their main operations underground, due to the possiblility of solar flares.

They will work on the surface, too, but live underground. It's the cheapest and most reliable way to provide shielding.

To answer the question about the asteroid: Maybe. Remember, it takes seven months or about to reach Mars traveling at a pretty good clip. Slow the rock down too much and it could take a LONG time to reach lunar orbit...

karov · 2005-05-08 05:19:30

Your going have a hard time getting a Earth like atmosphere with the volitiles (or lack there of) on the moon.
Your going to want to bring in astroids for the others.
On a side note, would it be possible to bring in as astroid slow enough to not make a big mess?

Just use small "asteroids".

Moon has the oxige in bigger plenty than Earth, locked in the rocks. We`d need carbon, hydrogen and nitrogen introduced. Diverting an asteroid/comet in direct hit in unprocessed state of the material is not necesary.

Imagine, small ( ~1 litre) plastic bags with thick ( 1-2 cm) polyethilene walls filled with amonia. The hydrogen is in the plastic and ammonia, no excessive oxigen cargo as if we haul predominantly water containing comets....

The plastic-amonia micro-cometary "shells", could be mass produced in the closer Outer system, an accelerated via rotatonal "slingshots" to several dozen of km/s in order to be able to be directed and to encounter the Moon directly without to be necessary to maneuvre additionaly.

Totally would be necessary about 10exp17-10exp18 pieces of ammonia bags...

Energy source - the rotational energy of the very mined body + mainly superconcentrated via solar-sail material soletas sun`s energy. To achieve sufficiently fast productivity of slingshots, solar-mirrors, shells... the way is to use again SRS, like the Dyson`s AstroChicken.

Assuming rate of duplication of the major CHN-delivery system`s components on the sound 1 year per turn, we`d need only several decades for all the stuff to be processed, packaged and delivered to the Moon, Occasional mishits to the Earth, are negligible with ~1 kg bodies...

karov · 2005-05-13 02:30:02

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7365

here you see, a patented design for centrifugal propulsion of small projectiles. The speed of the balls depends entirely on the energy source you have in hand. In this version the "bullets" are spaced in flight ~8.5 mm from eachother.

Imagine bigger wheels ( with radius up to the theoretic seiling line of material strenght) , firing 10 cm wide balls of 1 cm thick strong plastic walls filled with amonia ( say, 0.5 kg shell in total). Accelerated to 40 km/s and with fire rate such so the balls in flight to be spaced one from eachother on one diameter distance -- only one such rotational machine slingshot would provide 100 000 kg of CHN material per second or >3x10exp9 tonnes per year. We`d need only 10exp5 machine slingshots to provide the Moon for terraforming with the proposed between 10exp17 and 10exp18 pieces of about half kg or 1 kg ammonia bags in just one year term.

Striking as micro-comets the ammonia bags will fully desintegrate within the provided 100 mBars of pure oxigen atmosphere during their aerobraking, such way causing no harm to the surface.

The oxigen could be released via partail pyrolysis of the surface regolith and rocks via lasering of extensive parts of the landscape. For example again a system housed in L3 in order the Earth to be guarantied out of harm. The system`s laser could beam the whole surface moving like the electron beam in TV set - turning the entire hemisphere in glass + aluminium and silicon field. With good tech the purified aluminium and silicon could remain under surface to be preserved from re-oxigenation, although the aluminium oxide layer protects the aluminium bodies from burning out.

To be released 100 mBars of oxigen on the Moon, we`d need to pyrolize at least 6000 kg of oxygen per square meter. That means about 14 000 kg of rock per m2 or ~7 m3 of rock per m2. The complete pyrolyzing via intense laser beam of the central 10 000 000 km2 spot of the "Dark" side of the Moon to a depth of about 20 meters will give us the 100 mBars of O2.

The energy reuirements to do this could be estimated roughly from the opposite reaction energy yield - the burning of Al in O2 to Al2O3.

karov · 2005-05-20 03:30:07

http://www.space.com/news/050519_moonrox_challenge.html

http://www.universetoday.com/am/publish … ml?1952005

The begining of what `I`m talking about, folks.

karov · 2005-05-20 04:52:48

And more ( from http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-b … ...key=AST ) :
=============================================
Abstract:
"Oxygen was identified as the most important product of initial lunar materials processing efforts. A source of oxygen on the Moon provides an alternative to the costly transport of propellant to the Moon or to low earth orbit. Pyrolysis, or vapor-phase reduction, involves heating a feedstock to temperatures sufficient to decompose the constituent metal oxides and release oxygen. The process relies on the vaporization of metal oxides in the form of reduced suboxides or atomic species. The reduced species must then be condensed without re-oxidizing, yielding oxygen in the gas phase. The feasibility of obtaining oxygen from common lunar minerals was demonstrated using solar furnace experiments. These results are discussed together with chemical equilibrium models which were extended to include the multicomponent oxides used in experiments. For the first time, both experiments and theoretical models dealt with the complex oxides that make up potential lunar feedstocks. Two major conclusions are drawn from this preliminary work. First, unbeneficiated regolith is a suitable feedstock for pyrolysis. Second, the process can operate at moderate temperatures, circa 2000 K, which could be supplied by direct solar or electrical energy. In addition to these advantages in choice of feedstock and energy source, the pyrolysis process requires no chemicals or reagents, making it an attractive process for lunar oxygen production. "
=============================================

Only 1700-1800 degrees Celsium are sufficient to pyrolyse the regolith to extract oxigen. This rules out the necessity to hover giant multi-dozens-of-thousands-km2 solar cells collectors, and to beam terawatts of energy down from the L3 point.

Actually very simple design, very elegant and fast reproducing robots could cover the lunar surface to utilize all the ~2x10exp16 watts of falling on the one hemisphere ( i.e. continously all the time solar energy), to concentrate it via solar furnaces, to use the aluminium and titanium and iron and silicon left for self-construction and reproduction, and only for everal decades with very modest rate of replication to emit all the necessary oxigen for >100 mBars thick O2 atmosphere. Less than 100 years of atmospherization time, seems good for atmosphere retention measures to be deployed ( artificial signer magnetosphere).

Earthfirst · 2005-09-13 18:42:12

World house are best for the moon.

Earthfirst · 2005-09-13 18:45:48

I had posted a longer post about worldhouses but when I submited it it did not post, so I dont fell like writing the big long post out again, but a was a great idea at the time .

VTTFSH_V · 2005-09-13 22:49:19

Before you consider if an atmosphere would be sustainable on the moon, it is desirable to know something about meteorology.

The moon is about 100ºC at noon, and about -173ºC at night. Now say an atmosphere was introduced. The cool air would want to sink, causing high pressure, and the warm air would want to rise, causing low pressure. But because of the major temperature differences, you would have insane pressure systems at both extremes. Since an atmosphere always works to restore equilibrium, air moves into low-pressure areas from the high-pressure areas (always in that sequence). This is more commonly known as "wind." So, on the moon, the air would be RUSHING to low-pressure zones, madly trying to maintain equilibrium in such largely different pressure zones. Such an atmosphere would be very turbulent and therefore very unpleasant in which to live.

On the moon, we should stick to enclosed atmospheres.

Earthfirst · 2005-09-14 14:40:27

On the moon if it had a atmosphere such temperature extermes would be not common. The moon gets the same solar inslation as the earth does, so the same heating. The month long day would really heat up the day side, but the air and water would provide a heat flow to the cool night side. Very wendy but if large water ocean would help to stop excessive heating by providing a heat sink, which be released during the month long night at that site.
A world house would solve the problem of too long days and night by shading out the sun by the roof, and just use lighting on the underside of the roof to provide a 24 hr day/night cycle. solar cell on top of the roof provide the power of crouse.
Small bodys light the moon need phisical structures to hold in their air and to protect from ersion by the solar wind. Worldhouse work great on a small scale like a small city to covering the entire planet or moon with a roof. This is the best terraforming method for small bodys of the solar system.

VTTFSH_T · 2005-09-14 21:15:29

You do realize that the water would boil at noon since the boiling point is 100 degrees C. At night, the water would freeze since the freezing point of water is 0 degrees C. The whole idea of putting an atmosphere and water on the moon are very horrible ideas.

karov · 2005-09-16 05:52:27

You do realize that the water would boil at noon since the boiling point is 100 degrees C. At night, the water would freeze since the freezing point of water is 0 degrees C. The whole idea of putting an atmosphere and water on the moon are very horrible ideas.

It is very horrible that you apply this simple everiday logic in very horribly complex theme... Please read very horribly carefully the past threads about terraforming the moon, about the slowrotating bodies, the low gravity and atmosphere retention, and will learn much.

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