What kind of social system will be on Mars

Ian · 2005-04-30 11:42:27

What kind of social system will be on Mars? Will it be Communist, Capitalist, or Socialist? What kind of society will form on Mars?

MarsDog · 2005-04-30 13:10:52

There will be the official Earth supported settlers, regimented and controlled.
Taxed and governed, the worst parts of socilalism, capitalism and feudalism.

Unofficial Hermits, Pirates, Gold Panners, and Social Outcasts will have a good time.

Add a few cyborgs and Mech Warriors for entertainment.

Leifur · 2005-04-30 18:35:10

Of course it should be capitalistic, the others have long since proven themselves to be evil...

Creating a new society on Mars, and then doing all the same mistakes of socialism like we have done here on Earth, it would make the effort pointless.

Commodore · 2005-04-30 19:59:36

Given that the traditional social welfare issues on Earth will be dwelt with on Mars as a simple manner of survival, theres no reason why everything else can't be traditional capitalism.

It will be a major selling point for settlement in space.

Martian Republic · 2005-04-30 20:48:20

What kind of social system will be on Mars? Will it be Communist, Capitalist, or Socialist? What kind of society will form on Mars?

If we ever to build a Martian colony, what kind of society will they develop?

If any one of the three choices that we were given as choices to choose from, which was, Communism, Capitalism or Socialism. The is answer is simple, there will be no Mars society if those are the only choices.

The reason is, these three choices are not valid working economic system that can function in space. Those system can barely function here on earth and before they collapse under there own corruption. Anybody that tried to setup a society under one of these three system mentioned, will ultimately fail in there effort to setup a Martian colony. Unless we or they do come up with a functional economic plan or system, then it won’t even be an issue what kind of society they will have. The question will already been settled, there won't be one, because the choices given are hopelessly flawed and can not be redeemed for any kind of society on Mars.

Larry,

srmeaney · 2005-05-01 08:25:00

Commonwealth. It is the inevitable evolution of all systems of Government that progress towards the improvement of the right of the individual to an equal share of the responsibility and benifits of citizenship in a civilization.

Dook · 2005-05-01 09:30:58

If any one of the three choices that we were given as choices to choose from, which was, Communism, Capitalism or Socialism. The is answer is simple, there will be no Mars society if those are the only choices.
The reason is, these three choices are not valid working economic system that can function in space.

Really? How so? Under communism the Russians have been successful in space. Under capitalism the Americans have also been successful. With their superior technology the Nazi's very well could still be around today and have been even more successful in space then either of the others if they wouldn't have invaded their neighbors.

Martian Republic your conspiracy fears never hold up to the facts.

Dictatorship (Pharoah's, Kings, Emperor's, Emir's...) is responsible for the governance of humans for most of our history yet humans prospered.

The economic system on mars will reflect the society that colonizes it. It will take hundreds of years for it to evolve into something different but, by then, earth economic systems will have evolved as well.

srmeaney · 2005-05-02 06:14:33

Sorry Dook,
They all started wars and built their civilizations on the plundering and destruction of other nations. Even Gengis Khan slaughtered the Aristocracy & middle class of Persia and took home all the artisans to build his empire.

Commonwealth is yet to venture down that Path.

Dook · 2005-05-02 11:50:21

It's just different in name only. So you have a Prime Minister and we have a President. It's the same thing.

You routinely point out the faulty history of others (NASA, USA...) yet you ignore the faults of your own country.

Glass houses and rocks.

Commodore · 2005-05-02 16:51:33

Those who live in glass houses should change their clothes in the basement.

MarsDog · 2005-05-02 18:29:48

Initially, the settlements will be military law governed.

As the communities become less Earth dependent, each will have a governing council, similar to a small village. Some, perhaps along the line of religious communities, or ecological farming societies.

Dook · 2005-05-02 19:38:55

You are straight out of a science fiction book. You think mars will be exactly like the movie "Total Recall".

And I always find it amuzing that you use the word "will" as if you personally declared it.

MarsDog · 2005-05-02 22:25:00

And I always find it amuzing that you use the word "will" as if you personally declared it.

English is my second language. We all imagine and (day) dream.

Will have to do a search on Total Recall.

Leifur · 2005-05-03 02:53:29

Initially, the settlements will be military law governed.
As the communities become less Earth dependent, each will have a governing council, similar to a small village. Some, perhaps along the line of religious communities, or ecological farming societies.

There is one thing I wonder about such local government aproach, wich I am also fond of, that is, how will we get borders between those towns and communities? It could be dangerous if two compeeting communities would lay claim on the same plot of land outside their general dome, for maybe increased acriculture and such, that could result in war.

I beliewe we must give those communities some kind of system of creating property rights in a capitalistic way, that is what you use or terraform or something like that you get the property of to reduce the probability of war. But thus we will essentially have communities compeeting for land and then in all aspects they will be like companies in a market.

And as those that will go to Mars will have to pay a lot of money to get there, there will be a lot of investment in such communities, so I beliewe they will be just run like companies, at least many of them.

Palomar · 2005-05-03 05:28:38

*Hi. We had many interesting discussions in this regard in 2002 and 2003 especially.

Combing through the old threads in this folder might yield up additional thoughts of interest, points to consider, etc.

Some of the contributors to those threads might not be active New Mars members anymore, but most of us are probably still here.

Just thought I'd mention it.

--Cindy

Martian Republic · 2005-05-03 19:27:22

If any one of the three choices that we were given as choices to choose from, which was, Communism, Capitalism or Socialism. The is answer is simple, there will be no Mars society if those are the only choices.
The reason is, these three choices are not valid working economic system that can function in space.
Really? How so? Under communism the Russians have been successful in space. Under capitalism the Americans have also been successful. With their superior technology the Nazi's very well could still be around today and have been even more successful in space then either of the others if they wouldn't have invaded their neighbors.
Martian Republic your conspiracy fears never hold up to the facts.
Dictatorship (Pharoah's, Kings, Emperor's, Emir's...) is responsible for the governance of humans for most of our history yet humans prospered.
The economic system on mars will reflect the society that colonizes it. It will take hundreds of years for it to evolve into something different but, by then, earth economic systems will have evolved as well.

I stand by what I said!

Both Communism and Capitalism are based on looting somebody, some nation or stealing from the land or some other type of theft. The problem with both these kinds of systems is, they looted the physical economy until it collapses, steal from the land or corrupt it or pollute the land and at some point you will have a complete break down of the economy of that country or the ability to farm because of the polluted land.

Unless we can put together an economic system that puts more into the system than it take out of the system, then there will be no Mars society on Mars.

“PERIOD”!

“END OF DISCUSSION”!

Larry

Cobra Commander · 2005-05-04 05:49:09

Both Communism and Capitalism are based on looting somebody, some nation or stealing from the land or some other type of theft.

How do you define theft? Stealing from another nation or from one's own population is one thing, "stealing from the land" is quite another. It seems you are saying that any system that makes use of natural resources is "based on looting" and worthless.

Unless we can put together an economic system that puts more into the system than it take out of the system, then there will be no Mars society on Mars.

Only you can't actually do that. Everything comes from something, you can't just "create" wealth out of nothing. Not if want any sort of stability anyway.

So in essence you're saying we need an economic system that puts in more than it takes out but doesn't take anything from anywhere to put in? ???

If that's the case, I've got this free energy machine. Unlimited infinite power for nothing, it even has a cool perpetual motion whirly thing. I'll sell it to you for a thousand dollars.

Martian Republic · 2005-05-04 12:20:13

>>>Quote
Both Communism and Capitalism are based on looting somebody, some nation or stealing from the land or some other type of theft.

How do you define theft? Stealing from another nation or from one's own population is one thing, "stealing from the land" is quite another. It seems you are saying that any system that makes use of natural resources is "based on looting" and worthless.<<<

Stealing from other countries is what the United States has done in Africa and Iraq. In Africa we did our stealing through trade and monitory policies. In Iraq we did our stealing though invading and conquest at gun point. When it stealing from the American People, it people Like Kenneth Lay or Enron doing the stealing and some times referred to as "ROBER BARONS"! This is Capitalism when it come to stealing from people.

Stealing from the land, has several aspects to it. When you farm the land, you have to take care of that land and re-enrich that land so you don't ware it out or deplete that land. When you farm the land, you take nutrients out land in the fruit, vegetable that you take off the farms. Those nutrients are minerals and other things. In Capitalistic system we have now, you won't put those nutrients back, because it cost too much and can't make a living doing that. In the Old American System, you took care of the land and you did what ever you needed to do to preserve that land and even make it more production to produce more farm goods without destroying that land. In the present Capitalistic system we are also polluting the land mercury, toxins, herbicide’s, other heavy metal, etc, because it cheaper to pollute than it is to clean things up. Under the present Capitalistic system we are literally tearing up the land and making it unusable to us. One example is trip mining to get coal. Although we need the coal and we should mine the earth to get it, in the Hill Billy Country West Virginia and area's they are tearing off the tops of mountains and throwing it into the valleys with there waist being caught in holding ponds.

>>>Quote
Unless we can put together an economic system that puts more into the system than it take out of the system, then there will be no Mars society on Mars.

Only you can't actually do that. Everything comes from something, you can't just "create" wealth out of nothing. Not if want any sort of stability anyway.<<<

Actually, the United States more or less use to have an economic system that use to do that, but yes I do know how to go back to a system like that.

>>>So in essence you're saying we need an economic system that puts in more than it takes out but doesn't take anything from anywhere to put in? ???

If that's the case, I've got this free energy machine. Unlimited infinite power for nothing, it even has a cool perpetual motion whirly thing. I'll sell it to you for a thousand dollars. <<<

No, I'm not saying that we would not be taking resources out of the physical world for our own uses. But what I am saying is, while we are taking those resources, we also have to be doing something positive to that land so that we don't destroy it either and even over time even improve that land. Which we are not doing under the present Capitalistic System, because it too expensive to do it. So they choose to rape the land of all it resources and we will suffer the consequences later.

Larry,

Cobra Commander · 2005-05-04 12:37:32

Stealing from other countries is what the United States has done in Africa and Iraq. In Africa we did our stealing through trade and monitary policies. In Iraq we did our stealing though invading and conquest at gun point.

<shakes head in bewilderment> Yeah, we're stealing so much from Africa and Iraq. How profitable it's been.

When it stealing from the American People, it people Like Kenneth Lay or Enron doing the stealing and some times reffered to as "ROBER BARONS"!

Don't leave government off that list, I've had far more stolen from me by the duly elected authorities than by street thugs and robber barons combined.

And that ain't capitalism. Further, some of it can be traced directly or philosphically back to one Franklin D. Roosevelt.

Stealing from the land, has several aspects to it. When you farm the land, you have to take care of that land and re-enrich that land so you don't ware it out or deplete that land.

Sure, as it applies to farming. But you can't do that with mining, for example. The best you can hope for is that after the land is mined clean it can then be used for something else, which is frequently done already. We build condos on landfills! Much of your objections in this regard seem to stem more from technology than from economic systems.

It's really not my intent to come across as overly hostile, but you haven't done an adequate job of explaining coherently how this scheme of yours would work. Distorted references to the economic policies of FDR and vague ideas about not "raping" the land don't suffice.

There are alot of very smart people on these boards and from what I've seen none of them have discerned what you're getting at. I don't think it's us that's missing something.

BWhite · 2005-05-04 13:05:02

>>>Quote
Both Communism and Capitalism are based on looting somebody, some nation or stealing from the land or some other type of theft.

As I recall, Gorbachev once said that capitalism and communism were exact opposites.

One system was man oppressing his fellow man and the other system was the reverse.

Martian Republic · 2005-05-04 16:47:21

When it stealing from the American People, it people Like Kenneth Lay or Enron doing the stealing and some times reffered to as "ROBER BARONS"!
Don't leave government off that list, I've had far more stolen from me by the duly elected authorities than by street thugs and robber barons combined.
And that ain't capitalism. Further, some of it can be traced directly or philosphically back to one Franklin D. Roosevelt.
Stealing from the land, has several aspects to it. When you farm the land, you have to take care of that land and re-enrich that land so you don't ware it out or deplete that land.
Sure, as it applies to farming. But you can't do that with mining, for example. The best you can hope for is that after the land is mined clean it can then be used for something else, which is frequently done already. We build condos on landfills! Much of your objections in this regard seem to stem more from technology than from economic systems.
It's really not my intent to come across as overly hostile, but you haven't done an adequate job of explaining coherently how this scheme of yours would work. Distorted references to the economic policies of FDR and vague ideas about not "raping" the land don't suffice.
There are alot of very smart people on these boards and from what I've seen none of them have discerned what you're getting at. I don't think it's us that's missing something.

Actually, when FDR took over as President of the United States, those banker were financing both Mosulini and Adolph Hitlers rise to power. Those same bankers being the Morgans, Rockefellows, etc. were also planning to assassinate or over throw FDR.

If there had never been an FDR, the United States would now be a fascist state and maybe even under the boot of a Nazi Germany, because they would have one World War II without an FDR America. It was FDR massive infrustructural Project like rural electrification, dams & power plants on four major rivers and the re-industrializing of America that provided the industrial capacity to out produce the enemy when it came war materials like air planes, tank, ship, etc. Without FDR massive infrustructural Projects, the United State never could have built all that stuff to fight World War II. For example, the United States build 25,000 air planes of one type or another and we built two or three thousand ships. Without the ability to build stuff like this, we would have lost World War II and that a fact. Also over 50% of the American population was unemployed when FDR entered office and only about 5% were unemployed when he died. So FDR must have done something right to cause that to happen.

Larry,

Martian Republic · 2005-05-04 17:02:14

>>>Quote
Both Communism and Capitalism are based on looting somebody, some nation or stealing from the land or some other type of theft.
As I recall, Gorbachev once said that capitalism and communism were exact opposites.
One system was man oppressing his fellow man and the other system was the reverse.

Gorbachev is partly right and partly wrong in his statement. Both system has it own small group of people controlling everything, but they do it slightly differently.

For example:

Communism and Socialism are basically the same thing except Communism is done under force where Socialism is little more voluntary. They control the society in a Communist state through state control over everything.

Capitalism as most of us know it, is also a controlled system. Now most of us don't recognize it as such, because they don't carry a national flag like Union Jack or Star and Strips or Communist hammer or Sickle. Most of Capitalism control by a few individuals is done through bank, the stock markets, interest, loans and most people don't recognize that there being control or stolen from either.

Larry,

Alexander Sheppard · 2005-05-04 18:39:17

I don't really think it makes any sense to speculate on this. We don't even know what kinds of life forms are going to end up colonizing Mars. It could easily be the case that by the time colonization gets into full swing, the dominant form of life is some kind of modified human, or AI.

Dook · 2005-05-04 19:07:24

Martian Republican:
You claim the US stole something from Africa? Look again silly rabbit. The US gives more total foreign aid (Government monetary aid, Red Cross, US Church organizations, World Health Organization, personal gifts, US Center for Disease Control, I can go on and on...) than any country in the world with much of it going to Africa.

When people in Africa are starving we are there. We gave enough grain to fill a warehouse and their stupid leaders let it rot and refused to distribute it because it was genetically modified to provide more nutrition per serving. They said "We don't have the scientists to tell us if this is okay to eat." That's Darwinism at work.

We stole something in Iraq? Really, what? You have some real proof other than your usual links to conspiracy websites that say "America is bad."

If our capitalist economy is so bad then why did we pass all the other countries, many thousands of years older than ours, economies in a flash and grow to be the largest.

Your claim that we grow food on land and don't replace the nutrients and minerals is ridiculous. You obviously haven't heard of fertilizer. If what you say was so every crop would fail, but they don't because the farmers are smarter than you are.

clark · 2005-05-05 20:03:22

Make something from nothing? Isn't that the whole point?

Why the fuss?

Communism, Capitalism, Socialism, Facism (bow to the beneveloent Pro-consul), Left-ism, Right-ism, FEM-inism... whatever.

Whatever the take, whoever goes, however they go, they're going to have to put in more than they can take.

Unless of course you just strip mine the place. But it seems that is rather pointless given that if you could do that, you might as well just mine the asteroids, right?

So... peace? : :laugh:

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Re: What kind of social system will be on Mars

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