Paperless Mars

Phobos · 2002-08-02 20:34:16

I found it odd that Zubrin mentioned that there would be plenty of books loaded in the hab to provide leisurely reading material to the crew. I can't see a lot of non-essential paper reading materials being brought along simply because books would add a lot of mass. My Shakespeare book alone would probably require it's own rocket launch. Instead I think something like personal digital assistants that could download reading material from Earth would be a better alternative. I think Mars could turn into the first genuinely paper-free human society being that books not only add mass, but also require precious space to store which will be at a premium on Mars. It's also better to just download what you want to read from Earth rather than wait months for your books to arrive. Imagine the shipping charges!

A.J.Armitage · 2002-08-02 20:46:25

It's also better to just download what you want to read from Earth rather than wait months for your books to arrive. Imagine the shipping charges!

Or you could just print them on Mars.

HeloTeacher · 2002-08-03 04:38:57

If you are going to bring that much paper (heavy) then just bring the books.

A paperless NASA seems like quite the oxymoron!! :-)

The way to reduce mission mass is to completely rethink our ideas of what we need vs want, and to place ourselves in the new environment conceptually as we do it.

Josh Cryer · 2002-08-03 05:03:31

Phobos,

I found it odd that Zubrin mentioned that there would be plenty of books loaded in the hab to provide leisurely reading material to the crew.

Just curious, where'd he say that? I assume in his book Case for Mars? Unfortunately I have not had a chance to read it. That is an odd thing for him to say.

[...] books would add a lot of mass.

Yup. And books themselves are non-essential. And space faring people are going to have to adapt to not using things they're accustomed to using. That includes toilet paper

clark

[...] digital assistants that could download reading material from Earth would be a better alternative.

Definitely, and it's not hard to imagine digital assistants many times more durable than a book.

[...] Mars could turn into the first genuinely paper-free human society [...]

Not sure I totally agree. We may rid ourselves of paper made from wood pulp (it's really inefficient to use in space anyway), but we'll never be rid of paper. It's just too dang useful. I suspect by this time, OLEDs would have made a big enough impact in our society that the digital assistants you speak of would be paper.

Interestingly, we may revert back to using scrolls for books! Given that paper OLEDs would roll up quite efficiently. We'd only need one of them to view any book that's been scanned in. And they'd be about the size of a fat marker.

(Note: when I talk about paper, I'm talking about thin sheets of flexible material.)

It's also better to just download what you want to read from Earth rather than wait months for your books to arrive. Imagine the shipping charges!

Yeah, well, I'm a big supporter of this way of thinking. The less we ship to Mars, the better. Nothing is free, and every non-essential item is waste.

A.J.Armitage,

Or you could just print them on Mars.

With what wood? We're going to have to do away with wood pulp products... growing trees for wood pulp is totally out of the question, considering the ammount of energy and time required to do it vs. the ammount of time and energy required to create higher level technology. If you're going to make something on Mars, it has to be cheap.

HeloTeacher,

The way to reduce mission mass is to completely rethink our ideas of what we need vs want, and to place ourselves in the new environment conceptually as we do it.

Yeah, exactly. And that is the reason we go to Mars. Not for freedom, or some other political motivation, but for the experience. To live in a new environment. To accept new challenges. To be renewed culturally...

Bill White · 2002-08-03 12:41:44

I recall reading about new technologies using an 8 1/2 x 11 - or whatever - piece of flexible plastic that feels somewhat like thick paper. By applying electric current - words can appear - be erased - and replaced with others.

Like an "Etch a Sketch"

except these pages can be bound into books.

As for TP - author Michael Crieghton - sp? - I mean the guy who wrote Andromenda Strain -

wrote a "time travel" novel about going to the 14th century where the gentry used fine linen. In the novel, the linen was thrown away, but on Mars it could be laundered. . .

Pat Galea · 2002-08-03 13:24:39

I found it odd that Zubrin mentioned that there would be plenty of books loaded in the hab to provide leisurely reading material to the crew. I can't see a lot of non-essential paper reading materials being brought along simply because books would add a lot of mass. My Shakespeare book alone would probably require it's own rocket launch. Instead I think something like personal digital assistants that could download reading material from Earth would be a better alternative. I think Mars could turn into the first genuinely paper-free human society being that books not only add mass, but also require precious space to store which will be at a premium on Mars. It's also better to just download what you want to read from Earth rather than wait months for your books to arrive. Imagine the shipping charges!

Easily 90% of my reading is now done on my Palm. News stories, articles from the web, long posts from forums, books; I just drag 'em all onto the Palm. It's always available wherever I am, so I can catch up on odd bits of reading whenever I've got a spare moment. I'm effectively scavenging bits of 'waste time' that I'd otherwise have spent being bored, and recycling them into something genuinely useful.

So yeah, I can easily believe that this will be the way forward. It's already great, and further improvements in the technology and resources will make it that much more useful.

Pat Galea · 2002-08-03 13:27:08

To live in a new environment. To accept new challenges. To be renewed culturally...

Don't forget: To boldly go...

Phobos · 2002-08-03 22:21:18

Just curious, where'd he say that? I assume in his book Case for Mars? Unfortunately I have not had a chance to read it. That is an odd thing for him to say.

In the paperback version of the book I found it on page 129 in the Killing the Dragons chapter under the human factors sub-chapter. I'll quote directly what Zubrin said:

"During the interplanetary cruise phases of their mission, they [astronauts] may share some of the GI's boredom, but this burden will be greatly lightened by a hefty on board supply of books, games..."

I recall reading about new technologies using an 8 1/2 x 11 - or whatever - piece of flexible plastic that feels somewhat like thick paper. By applying electric current - words can appear - be erased - and replaced with others.
Like an "Etch a Sketch"
except these pages can be bound into books.
As for TP - author Michael Crieghton - sp? - I mean the guy who wrote Andromenda Strain -
wrote a "time travel" novel about going to the 14th century where the gentry used fine linen. In the novel, the linen was thrown away, but on Mars it could be laundered. . .

Those sheets seem to be a gray area. I'm not sure you can really consider them paper being that they're more like thin computer screens that you can program. I guess you could have one or two bound volumes of these sheets that you could download writing into and then when your done reading just erase the writing and download something new. I guess you could do the same with a paperbook but it'd be a pain erasing all of those paper pages and then inscribing a new book in them.

So yeah, I can easily believe that this will be the way forward. It's already great, and further improvements in the technology and resources will make it that much more useful.

I think that paper books as we know them will be rarities sometime in the future also. Some colleges are already beginning to sell versions of textbooks that you can just download into an electronic device.

Don't forget: To boldly go...

Ah yes, I love the ring of that.

A.J.Armitage · 2002-09-12 20:13:45

Josh;

With what wood? We're going to have to do away with wood pulp products... growing trees for wood pulp is totally out of the question, considering the ammount of energy and time required to do it vs. the ammount of time and energy required to create higher level technology. If you're going to make something on Mars, it has to be cheap.

Dude... hemp, dude.

Adrian · 2002-09-13 16:47:27

Just a few quick random points:

While I do see us heading towards a paperless office, I don't think that it'll be what people expect - we'll certainly use flexible touch screen displays of course, but beyond that I wouldn't want to say much. There was an interesting psychology study done showing that a seemingly untidy and cluttered desk scattered with papers actually holds a great amount of information to the desk's owner - the spatial organization of the papers provides clues as to the importance and immediacy of different documents.

For example, a stack of papers on a far edge might mean that they aren't very important, but a single piece of paper right at the front implies that it is something important. Indeed, they said that the worst thing you can do to someone else's desk is to tidy it

RobS · 2002-09-14 01:09:39

It may very well be that an early piece of equipment to take to Mars will be a paper recycling unit, capable of chopping up old paper and making new paper from it! Paper is indeed pretty valuable. Computers have increased demand for it, not decreased demand. Indeed, a PBS special said the World Trade Center towers fell because of the fires the jet fuel started--the jet fuel all burned up in a few minutes--and that the fire was mostly office furniture and paper! If there had been truly paperless offices, the towers might still be there!

-- RobS

Josh Cryer · 2002-09-15 11:56:38

Sure, the usefulness of wood pulp paper is amazing. Especially toilet paper.

But considering the energy requirements... I can't imagine it being worth it. A portable device, that is easy to clean, would have a very long battery life (nuclear batteries last 100 years), and would last many times longer than paper with the same kind of usage, would definitely be ?cheaper,? than paper that is constantly being recycled, for a short term convenience.

Granted, I appreciate the idea that desks set about a certain way could be good, psychologically. But I don't see how anything would be much different with newer technologies.

Consider this: I look at my desk now, and I certainly don't see any papers. Well, there's a motherboard manual sitting on the top of my computer, because I was checking some BIOS settings, but that's it. Everything else is digital. I have a stack of CD-Rs, still yet to be used. And another stack of already burnt. They're labeled accordingly, and I can easily go to a certain stack and pick out my Windows 98 backup CD. Or, say, a DVD rip of Pitch Black (interestingly, whenever I watch that movie, I pretend the characters are on Mars... because the landscape does look very Mars-like). Is my behavior any different than if I was looking for papers? Not really.

When I think about it, the only difference I see is efficiency.

sethmckiness · 2002-10-01 09:21:39

With the Advent of Tablet Computers I think That they 'could' be the next format for books, about the perfect size and will probably be the most succesful form of computer yet. Was going to get a PDA but am waiting til Tablets get more like my laptop. http://www.viewsonic.com/products/table … ad1000.htm Yes, there is ruggedized versions that are better sealed and shock resistant. but they are more in the 4-5000$ range

AltToWar · 2002-10-01 19:41:24

Just a few quick random points:
While I do see us heading towards a paperless office, I don't think that it'll be what people expect

There is a quote i once heard:

"We will have paperless offices when we have toilet paperless bathrooms"

I think the author of the quote means that both our culture and out law system are currenly paper dependant. It will be quite a while before that change happens, even if the technology is present to make it a realty.

Josh Cryer · 2002-10-01 22:47:14

I don't think all of society will ever make a leap away from paper usage. I just think those in space will use less conventional, more practical forms of paper (using plastics, etc). I know, it probably annoys people when I use words so loosely, but I honestly don't see much of a cultural difference between people who use higher technology tablet-like devices, and those who use wood pulp paper. They are both invocations of technology, and they both probably use about the same ammount of resources when you take into account long term viablity. A tablet that is usable and reusable for 5-10 years, would probably eat the energy required to recycle the same ammount of paper to pull off the same duty.

When you think about it, the cost of, say, a tablet isn't all that much. They are just made of hydrocarbons, a few metals, and silicon. All you need is a manufacturing process that quickly and cheaply assembles those bits coherently. Is such a process foreseeable? I'd say so.

Palomar · 2002-10-29 16:49:19

*Perhaps what Dr. Zubrin had in mind were mini- or micro-books. I've seen Christian bibles, in their entirety, which could fit in the palm of your hand, or even smaller; the smallest was perhaps 2 x 2 inches, and thick of course. The print was very small, and came with an accompanying magnifying glass.

Yeah, it'd be a pain in the posterior to read everything that way. For the astronauts going for the first couple of times to Mars and back, it may be a viable alternative...unless, of course, the hosting space agency is willing to spend more money out the kazoo to provide EVERY crew member with a computer or electronic notepad or whatever. It may even be a viable alternative for the earliest settlers. Said book could be bound like a spiral notebook, so that the pages completely separate from one another, allowing the little book to lay as flatly as possible, and set under a free-standing magnifying glass with attached paper pincher [which would keep the book open and avoid hand/wrist strain in keeping it open manually].

I know, I know...sounds kind of silly. But it came to mind. ::shrugs::

--Cindy

RobS · 2002-10-29 21:08:46

I think the reference to books in the Hab in the Case for Mars may partly reflect the time: the book was written in the early 1990s before ebooks. Or it may reflect the fact that people will always want to read books, and astronauts will have a personal mass allowance for their own possessions, which no doubt will include some books.

-- RobS

Palomar · 2002-10-30 09:00:41

I think the reference to books in the Hab in the Case for Mars may partly reflect the time: the book was written in the early 1990s before ebooks. Or it may reflect the fact that people will always want to read books, and astronauts will have a personal mass allowance for their own possessions, which no doubt will include some books.
-- RobS

*Agreed.

I prefer books to any online-reading; I'm sure I'm not the only one. The headaches and eye strain from computer screens can be terrible.

--Cindy

soph · 2002-12-09 17:26:15

i like the idea of a 15" or so computer screen, with a slot, possibly a cd/dvd drive...you could record a book to a cd, put it in the drive, perhaps select the font, type size, even add music to the book. theres no reason to think this wouldnt work. ive built computers before...all you need is a power source, a motherboard, chip, and an i/o cable. a normal computer is about 30 watts, and we're not talking that much power here.

so, you could bring MANY more books for a fraction of the weight. maybe put a word processing program on the "computer" and a keyboard for thoughts, diaries etc, and add an external hard drive. youd be able to read more easily than a normal book, and you'd only need, say one per person, maybe two, in case of breakage. this would weigh only a few pounds. meanwhile, you get music, movies, etc. these could be portable, maybe plugged into an outlet too.

separate computers (PC's, laptops are nice, but cant compete) are necessary too. and they should be top of the line. games are a good feature, but there are so many important uses for computers.

imho, id like this kind of a "book" on earth too

Roark · 2003-02-07 20:10:40

Has anyone considered the possibility that Zubrin did not necessarily mean physical books but that his intended meaning was most certainly books in a digitalized form? eBooks were definitely something on the horizon in the mid 90s.

soph · 2003-02-07 21:33:35

Roark, look up just one post

Roark · 2003-02-08 22:55:19

There is also the problem of computer errors occuring in deep space due to the Sun's particles streaming by. A good system would utilize a mainframe shielded from radiation and several tablet PC's with wireless networking. Some kind of stronger error checking could be developed to fix errors which occured during wireless transmission between the tablet PCs and the mainframe. The mainframe could also download news and maybe even favorite websites on a regular basis from Earth, so our fearless space explorers would have plenty news articles to read as well as the numerous books, movies, etc. There are tablet PCs on the market right now with 20GB hard drives and wireless LAN capabilities for $1500. Imagine what will be available in 10-20 years?

soph · 2003-02-09 10:03:56

why bother having a wireless lan? Have a network hub and have them plug in to the central server, which can perform its own error checks, once a day to get the news and everything. much cheaper, and data rate is faster.

Josh Cryer · 2003-02-09 14:57:02

Yeah, but then you have wires to deal with. You can make high bandwidth wireless lans if you needed to.

soph · 2003-02-09 15:06:42

Wired lans are 10x faster, and all you need is a few wires and a hub. Not really much to deal with if you plan intelligently. It's also pretty much immune to funkiness in transfers due to external factors. A thunderstorm can interrupt a wireless LAN.

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