Going to Mars - Am I the only one?

RobS · 2005-04-11 15:51:18

This has certainly become a bizarre thread, with people denouncing and excluding people in order to "protect" people and ideas, such as the "sanctity of life" (whatever that is; presumably not the Catholic concept?)

I am not a Catholic, but among the many hats I wear to earn a living is instructor of religious studies (I may has a
Masters in planetary geology, but I have a doctorate in history of religion). One does not need to understand a particular religion to respect it or join it. I have taught courses on the historical Jesus, contemporary Islam, and an "intense" introduction to Buddhism (none of them about my own religion, by the way; I am a Baha'i). Religion is a powerful thing and therefore can be used for either good or bad; when you think of the inquisition, don't forget Mother Theresa. In that sense, religion is like a few other powerful things: science, money, and sex, for example. You can't live with them sometimes, without them at other times.

Mars will have religious people. It will also have nonreligious people. If it is indeed the open society people advocate, it might have a lot of religious people, for the simple reason that the only good way to destroy religion so far known is to align it with government (that's what happened to religion in Europe; it was associated with the nineteenth aristocracy and other entrenched power groups, and when they were defeated, religion lost its power and prestige). In a free market (like the US) it can do quite well (or less well, but still reasonably well, as in Canada). If you want to make it really strong, sometimes the best thing to do is suppress it (consider religion in Poland under Communism, though in the USSR it partially aligned/collaborated with the Communist party and thus was discredited). I doubt the Vatican will ship priests to Mars in the first decade or two, but eventually it will pay; so will Mormons and others, simply because it will give a group prestige to have followers on Mars, and it will excite the faithful if converts are found there.

-- RobS

P.S.: I should add that the list of workers welcome on Mars makes some sense, but if there are ten million people there, don't forget manicurists, undertakers, dog and pet beauticians, lawyers--there will be divorces to handle--accountants, tax preparers, and everything else a modern service economy has! If the people are not poor, they will need every service needed now, and maybe a few more (spacesuit repair people, astrologers able to calculate horoscopes based on Mars [horror!] etc.).

Palomar · 2005-04-11 16:03:39

*Well I'm a Mod.

And if Mods aren't welcome, I'm not welcome.

(And no, I won't be wearing tie-dye!) And if you don't like my psychedelic posters, put your shades on. :laugh:

Rob S: This has certainly become a bizarre thread, with people denouncing and excluding people in order to "protect" people and ideas, such as the "sanctity of life"

Looks like a bit of the old "creating god in one's own image" thing...except it's Mars we're talking about.

--Cindy

Planet@lien · 2005-04-11 16:53:52

Open an air lock and space the lot of them. Most of the real Mars colonists will be people with years of mining experience. Not a bunch of zealot parasites.
The first preist to crack open a bible and preach tyranny, despotism and the evils of independent thought will fall down a very deep hole.

I'll have to go with him too. We wouldn't want to start a fight over religion on another planet. Think if some zealot got into the base. Blow open the dome and we are all dead!

This could be dangerous, although we can't just have athiests go there......

Planet@lien · 2005-04-11 16:54:45

Open an air lock and space the lot of them. Most of the real Mars colonists will be people with years of mining experience. Not a bunch of zealot parasites.
The first preist to crack open a bible and preach tyranny, despotism and the evils of independent thought will fall down a very deep hole.

I'll have to go with him too. We wouldn't want to start a fight over religion on another planet. Think if some zealot got into the base. Blow open the dome and we are all dead!

This could be dangerous, although we can't just have athiests go there......

Planet@lien · 2005-04-11 16:59:22

oops.......... Sorry about that, I thought i didn't post the first post, then i posted again!!

Planet@lien · 2005-04-11 17:03:30

Anyways, lets stop arguing about religion! There is two things you can never win at. And that is religion and politics, now lets get back to the main topic.

Who wants to go to Mars. If so post below!!

Mad Grad Student · 2005-04-11 17:14:47

99.99% of all religion is just fine. It's perfectly harmless stuff as long as people keep their beliefs to themselves and we can all universally agree on where exactly we need to draw the line on moral issues such as protecting life. Mars will almost certainly have a very frontier environment as it is first settled, and for the most part people have been able to settle frontiers throughout human history without stepping on each others toes too much. People get into trouble when you start cramming a bunch of them together for decades on end and let the shadier parts of the human psyche ferment more than civilization should responsibly allow.

Doubtless the first Martian colonists will be hard working. They'll have to be. This is not something we have to worry about because only the most driven, inspired, workaholic type people will even consider going live out the rest of their lives on a foreboding alien planet. They will work ridiculously hard patching holes in greenhouses, filling out quotas in agricultural production, and finding new resources to harvest. People who tend to work hard also play hard. Religion is one way that some people do this. As long as it's religion on the level of neighbors getting together to find deeper meaning in their lives on Sundays, then sitting around for afternoons relaxing together maybe playing a bit of football, then going in and and working like crazy on Monday, where's the problem. As long as you can keep the lynch mobs and suicide bombers out, I don't see what the problem is. Fortunately, the KKK and Al-Qeda types only form the tiniest fraction of all religious people.

As for the question of how many people go to Mars, I can't imagine it being more than maybe 2,000-5,000 people per colony, with maybe 10 to 20 colonies on the planet. Colonists are going to have a very tough time adjusting to the planet, and there will undoubtedly be many factors and difficulties that pop up that we can't even imagine today. It's asking a lot from people to ask them to live their entire lives inside a few big soda cans and plastic greenhouses, and I have serious questions as to whether or not we're psychologically up to the task. These issues are not as inconsequential as many space advocacy groups like the Mars Society make them out to be. I have no doubt that there will be some people living on Mars perminately, even with little more than today's technology, by the end of the century, but I can't imagine that millions and millions would jump at the chance to live on the red planet. We'll get there, but not in droves. At least not at first.

RobS · 2005-04-11 23:16:49

I'm not sure why you say 2-5k people per colony, 10-20 colonies total on Mars. Because Mars starts out with no transportation system, aircraft don't work well, clearing a good road system will be expensive, and spacecraft are inherently expensive, there will be a tendency to put down one central settlement at a geographically advantageous location and build it up a lot more than any other place. In other words, there will be a tendency for Mars to develop one big city, not a bunch of villages of equal size, because the transportation network will limit the efficiency of the latter setup. And clearly there is no inherent size limit on a city. The largest ones on Earth have tens of millions, not 2,000 to 5,000 people. The bigger the city, the more efficient it tends to become.

And why only 10-20 colonies total? This is a world the same size as all of Earth's dry land. Mars will have as many settlements as economics allows. If there are strategic resources scattered about, there will be settlements to exploit them and transport them. There will be a tendency to put a central university, research hospital, arts facility, administrative center, etc., all at the central outpost, and once it gets bigger it'll have more services (better child care, bigger stores, more restaurants) so people will prefer to live there over life in the "boondocks." Smaller settlements will then need some sort of reason to exist; maybe they can mine something unavailable to the central city; maybe they do specialized research, such as on an active volcano, the polar caps, or a frozen sea that can't be done at the central city; etc.

The other unknown variable is ethnic. Mars could have an American settlement, a Chinese settlement, a European settlement, etc. But even then there will be a tendency to locate them all a few kilometers apart, rather than hundreds or thousands of kilometers apart, so that someone can drive over quickly in an emergency (or run through a pressure tunnel between domes). Possibly Mormons, or Wahhabis, or Tibetan Buddhists will chose to start their own, more remote settlements. But that depends on the economics of transportation; one-way tickets will have to get down to a million or two dollars per person before specialized groups start to show up and create their own settlements.

Another tendency is what could be called "homesteading." At what point--if ever--will the technology get cheap enough to allow individuals or small groups to go off and create their own homesteads houses or hamlets? Most such efforts will also be carried out a few kilometers or tens of kilometers from a big settlement, in case of depressurization, a heart attack, or some other emergency.

-- RobS

Michael Bloxham · 2005-04-12 00:28:15

Y'know what should be the top priority of a martian civilization? Education. We cannot encourage ignorance. If the people are smart, they won't care for religion or politics. Educated people can govern themselves. Who was it who said that?

srmeaney · 2005-04-12 04:34:01

That is why I suggested the Space Commonwealth. That way everyone is educated before they go.

GCNRevenger · 2005-04-12 05:19:31

Y'know what should be the top priority of a martian civilization? Education. We cannot encourage ignorance. If the people are smart, they won't care for religion or politics. Educated people can govern themselves. Who was it who said that?

I don't know, but that sounds a little like Karl Marx

RobS · 2005-04-12 15:11:09

Education is immensely important, especially if Mars is to be able to pay its way. A highly educated population is more likely to be innovative, and Mars will have to innovate if it is to produce things Earth will buy inspite of the high transportation costs.

But don't think that education will eliminate ignorance and bias; some educated people have incredibly glaring prejudices. And don't think it will eliminate religion; there are many highly educated religious people. As a teacher of religious studies, I assure you that there was many very intelligent and educated people interested in different aspects of religion.

-- RobS

Palomar · 2005-04-12 15:32:03

Education is immensely important, especially if Mars is to be able to pay its way. A highly educated population is more likely to be innovative, and Mars will have to innovate if it is to produce things Earth will buy inspite of the high transportation costs.
But don't think that education will eliminate ignorance and bias; some educated people have incredibly glaring prejudices. And don't think it will eliminate religion; there are many highly educated religious people. As a teacher of religious studies, I assure you that there was many very intelligent and educated people interested in different aspects of religion.
-- RobS

*More than 1 Apollo-era astronaut professed a belief in God. IIRC, one of them has taught Sunday School classes for years. Didn't Einstein believe in God?

I'm an agnostic (as most long-term New Mars members know).

As for "some educated people have incredibly glaring prejudices." Yep. Hitler's top henchmen were intelligent, had high IQs. Goes to prove intelligence -isn't- synonymous with wisdom.

Custer (West Point graduate hot-shot) refused to listen to the advice and warnings of battle-hardened generals and lieutenants (who had little formal education). And why should? He knew everything, was superior to them...(whoops).

And I'll forego a few examples of medical doctors I've worked for.

Going back to Planet@lien's question: By the time they get a manned mission to Mars underway (at the rate things are progressing), I'd be too old. I'm just hoping to SEE a manned mission to Mars.

--Cindy

Dook · 2005-04-12 15:39:06

What's the time frame for all these thousands, even millions of colonists that you all believe we are going to send?

I don't see anything more than a small crew until we have an atmosphere and the ice has thawed to create whatever oceans and seas it can, then a slow settlement of scientists to study the planet and skilled workers to repair and work on the life support equipment, domes, vehicles, farms, and terraforming equipment.

With each extra body on the planet you must also increase food, oxygen, CO2 removal, water, living space, and waste processing. Sending thousands quickly would mean hundreds of deaths quickly. Millions = pure insanity.

Palomar · 2005-04-12 15:45:45

*I agree, Dook. I don't anticipate a mass exodus from Earth to Mars which others apparently foresee somehow. The cost, the perils of interplanetary flight, building infrastructure on Mars, supporting a growing population, etc., etc. Not to mention the number of people scared to death to even fly on an airplane, let alone get into a spaceship. And nevermind the number of people who would absolutely refuse to even consider being without the conveniences, luxuries and creature comforts of Earth life.

What I do foresee is a couple of science colonies initially established, and a slow trickle of newcomers. Colonization will be a carefully graduated process, based on many factors (some mentioned above, some yet unforeseen and of course yet to be contended with).

But of course I could be wrong (though I doubt it).

--Cindy

Martin_Tristar · 2005-04-12 16:24:20

However, over the next fifty years of exploration on the Martian surface the landing sites that are explorer sites will turn into outposts for scientists and one or two will convert into settlements greater than 50 personnel, the start of colonization.

We can live in Dome or multi-dome environments with alot of plant life to provide the human centric environment required. At the same time we would start a terraforming process for the whole planet. Other activities would be to explore the planet including building remote relief sites unmanned but could substain human life (like forest cabins ) thus could allow expansion of the human explorers across the surface.

All this depends on the infrastructure around manned and unmanned cargo transports and mineral resource mining on the moon and asteroids and more. The most important resource is people that you could depend on for the development, exploration and innovation of the space infrastructure and colonies on the lunar and martian surfaces.

Fledi · 2005-04-12 16:32:56

It won't be easy in the beginning, I guess many on earth will laugh at the "idiots" who exchanged the comfort of a life on earth for those harsh conditions.
But once the basic infrastructure is in place things will begin to improve and more people will choose to leave earth.
The two most important factors for the speed of this process are IMO launch costs from earth and the efficiency of recycling and living off the land on mars.
Oh and it would help greatly if we had something really valuabe to exchange like gold or glass perls.

srmeaney · 2005-04-12 18:01:00

What's the time frame for all these thousands, even millions of colonists that you all believe we are going to send?

If its a million-ten million colonists, try a time frame of a thousand years.

That requires of the World a heavy lift capability beyond where we are now. Mars was always going to require more than we have to give.

As to all those people you felt were not in the Mining industry, There are towns on this planet that consist of those people, and whose task is to support the industry of Mining. Yes Doctors and Nurses, Geologists, and Technicians, Materials Engineers, Electricians, Electrical Engineers, all these people provide the necessary support for a major mine to function safely and efficiently. They are about 33% of the real population of a mine & support town. The miners, engineers, plant operators comprise just over 50%, The rest are non critical personnel who are not employees of the Mine. They might own and operate a Bar, a shop, or even be the priest, or the Police and they comprise 17% of a mining community population.

And two thousand years of rowing up a river of blood squeezed from your victims is not a religion, its a crime.

GCNRevenger · 2005-04-12 20:26:45

"And two thousand years of rowing up a river of blood squeezed from your victims is not a religion, its a crime."

Excuse me?

Grypd · 2005-04-13 03:47:37

As to all those people you felt were not in the Mining industry, There are towns on this planet that consist of those people, and whose task is to support the industry of Mining. Yes Doctors and Nurses, Geologists, and Technicians, Materials Engineers, Electricians, Electrical Engineers, all these people provide the necessary support for a major mine to function safely and efficiently. They are about 33% of the real population of a mine & support town. The miners, engineers, plant operators comprise just over 50%, The rest are non critical personnel who are not employees of the Mine. They might own and operate a Bar, a shop, or even be the priest, or the Police and they comprise 17% of a mining community population.

What makes you consider we will be sending so many miners? By the time we are ready to go to Mars we will be almost completely automated in our approach to mining. Australia and South africa are showing the way to this. Probably we will need to send more technicians and plumbers to Mars than miners, even Mechanics will be more needed to keep the machinery up to standard. Personally I believe there will be little similarity between mining towns and martian colonies.

And two thousand years of rowing up a river of blood squeezed from your victims is not a religion, its a crime

Eh??? Just to add that this century that Pol Pot, Hitler, and Joeseph Stalin where all Aethiest and in sheer numbers of victims then..... You cannot blame religion for everything. And even the worst excesses ie the Spanish Inquisition where by Goverments with the church following the official line.

GCNRevenger · 2005-04-13 06:03:51

If you are going to be running a mining base, the majority of the crew needed will be chemical engineers and telerobotics operators, with some mechanical engineers for maintaining stuff. You won't need many actual miners in suits outside.

Martian Republic · 2005-04-13 06:19:12

Besides, for every mining town you could show me, I can show you several more towns based on farming, lumber, manufacture, etc. Matter of fact, there a hole lot more towns based on other things other mining. Matter of fact, two hundred years ago, over 50% of the US Population were farmers. But, I’m not suggesting that a major portion of the Martian population will be farmers though.

Larry,

GCNRevenger · 2005-04-13 12:03:06

Martian farming will be a big deal, and it stands to reason that such farms would be best built on flat, low-lying land near the equator. Preferably near any underground frozen ground water probobly, and not near mountainous regions where you would want a mine. Lower altitudes would be ideal for Nitrogen extraction from the Martian atmosphere too.

If ground water isn't available on Mars, then you'd also need a water ice harvesting base near the North pole... Mars will probobly be connected by rail lines eventually for cargo.

srmeaney · 2005-04-13 18:27:39

If you are going to be running a mining base, the majority of the crew needed will be chemical engineers and telerobotics operators, with some mechanical engineers for maintaining stuff. You won't need many actual miners in suits outside.

You are talking about an Open cut Surface mine where you dig up the regolith with robots and then the robots give the material and the other robots give that to another machine so it can turn the material into something useful. Both the Engineering jobs you point to can be done by technicians. Underground is different. Especialy if you are going to live there.

Martian farming will be a big deal, and it stands to reason that such farms would be best built on flat, low-lying land near the equator. Preferably near any underground frozen ground water probobly, and not near mountainous regions where you would want a mine. Lower altitudes would be ideal for Nitrogen extraction from the Martian atmosphere too.

Considering a deep mine will get you your Nitrogen, even the Farms can be underground. You see they invented this magic in a glass thingy that makes the spectrum of light a sun would produce so you can grow plants in a dark room. It will be easier if the Agriculture is on site that way we dont have to send half way around Mars to get dinner.

You raise a valid point though. If we are going to support a mining effort out in the Asteroid Belt, It is going to be supported and resupplied from Mars. That Means you will need a Space port devoted to the production and Export of food.
As far as meat production goes it may well be Rat Burgers, Snail stew, Fried frogs legs, and steamed fish.

Even with such a nasty menu, I'd still consider going.

"I'm Sorry Billy. The other Astronauts voted to eat the Lab Animals when the Vegetarian Party took control on Earth and ended the supply of Beef. If it is any consolation, Hammy Hamster took one for the team."

RobS · 2005-04-13 21:18:52

I have no idea why mining will naturally get you nitrogen. We don't know for sure that Mars has nitrate deposits. We know the atmosphere has nitrogen, and that's plenty for agriculture.

As for underground agriculture, I see these problems:

1. Plants need a LOT of energy; on the earth they get about a kilowatt per square meter, twelve hours per day. To feed someone, you need probably about fifty to 100 square meters, so you need 50 to 100 constant kilowatts of light for farming. It makes no sense to make it with electricity; you're better off using the natural sunlight that falls on Mars. Mirrors systems to convey that quantity of light to underground facilities are very complex and expensive. Very simple reflector systems can increase the natural sunlight that surface facilities receive quite easily, but not underground facilities.

2. All that energy goes in as light and gets converted into heat, which then has to be removed from the greenhouse. A surface facility can radiate a lot of that energy straight into the Martian atmosphere; the rest can be exchanged with the atmosphere using an air conditioning type unit. An underground facility would need even more heat removal.

3. The Martian atmosphere provides plenty of shielding against cosmic radiation and normal solar proton output; plants will not be effected by the radiation that gets through. As far as I know, even a solar storm is sufficiently attenuated by the atmosphere for plants. In fact, the Martian atmosphere provides more protection than the radiation shelters planned for spacecraft.

4. Surface facilities will suffer from reduced agricultural output during the dust storm season. That means the greenhouses have to be perhaps 25 or 30% larger than otherwise, to make up for the part of the Martian year when plants grow slowly and some won't grow at all because of the attenuated sunlight (the equivalent of about an hour a day on the Earth's surface). But even so, surface facilities will have to be cheaper than underground ones.

5. As for growing food for export to the asteroid belt and even the moon or low earth orbit, I'd put the greenhouses on Phobos and Deimos, if the problems of agriculture in microgravity can be solved. The food would be grown in a place where the delta-v to move it is minimized. The moons would provide substantial radiation shielding, carbon dioxide, water, and possibly nitrogen. Fertilizers could be hauled up from Mars more cheaply than food, since much of the fertilizer would be recycled. There would be no problems from dust storms. Possibly solar flares would reduce food production at certain times, but I don't think they would reduce it much; plants can handle hundreds to thousands of times the radiation dosages that humans can handle.

-- RobS

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