Probable Colony Sites

Martian Republic · 2005-04-06 17:20:43

Martian Republic
Now I have proposed that the US goverment should nationalize The Federal Reserve system and eliminate the debt of 300 to 400 hundred trillion dollars of worth paper and generate one to two trillion dollars of new credit.
What you are asking to do is all the bonds that are held will be defaulted. It is hardly in the trillions of dollars but it is Billions. And a very good percentage of this is held by various international banks of which the US goverment has borrowed money from and has given these bonds to as collateral. With a lot of Dollars being held as foreign currency reserves in various countries as well. Let me tell you what will happen if some idiot ever decided that they could do it.
1) Defaulting these bonds and loans would instantly make the banks holding these loans to loose all the money they have lended in good faith. Many may well collapse and it would certainly result in a monetary crisis the world has never seen. Many goverments would have to bail these banks out and it would hurt when the world went into a recession that has never been seen not even in the likes of the wall street crash.
2) The various countries holding Dollars would dump them as they would be weakened it would only take some itchy financial advisor to start it or even a computer currency market. Some countries would love to do this China would, it would basically make the dollar worthless.
3) America would find itself incapable of buying anything outside the USA unless it pays in money other than the now hyperinflationing Dollar. Electricity, Oil, Materials would all stop as they could not be purchased.
4) With this a lot of people will become unemployed the goverment will be unable to pay its employees (this happened to the USSR) Hyperinflation would basically mean that barter was the real means of purchase for the averadge citizen. There would be no water or lights, Heating would be provided by burning what you can.
5) American property would be seized outside the USA as compensation by those goverments at the actions of the USA, it would be done to alleviate the problems these goverments have after the reckless action of the USA. Worst would be that as the United States goverment has really little property outside the USA it would be American firms that would be in effect all nationalised. These corporations in the USA would recieve no compensation and even the biggest would likely collapse or have to "downsize drastically"
6) Since it is friendly goverments to the USA that really have the banks that would be defaulted against and that it is friendly goverments that have large American owned buisnesses in it the USA would quickly find itself with few friends even the staunchest ally would not forgive the USA for its actions.
This is just a taste of what it means to default on those loans and bonds. It would be inexcusable for this to happen and for the American people it would be a disaster if not for the world. Certainly it would knock the western world out of its premier spot on this planet.

Grypd,

I said derivitives and I did not say bond. The derivitives are basically a gambling debt by the financial houses are doing like in Wall Street and those big banks. I repeat that these three big banks in America which are Chase Mannhatten, City Bank and Bank America along with Wall Street have about 40 trillion dollars of derivitives. That this 40 trillion dollars is worthless paper and needs to be thrown away as worthless paper. Now worldwide there about 300 to 400 trillion dollars of derivitives owned by financal houses and big banks worldwide. This paper is also worthless and can't be saved either.

Now as to bonds. Most of what you are saying I can agree with, but the US Governmen is in debt to about six trillion dollars and most of that is in bonds. Now this debt in bonds needs to be treated differently and put off to the side and dealt with later. We will need to nogotiate with other countries as to our bond debts and work it out over time a solution and we can't just canceled that debt. The US Government is responsible for those Government bonds, but there not responsible for those derivitives and it is those derivitives that should be canceled out. Since this would effect the world, then we would need an economic summit with the rest of the world to setup a new economic system to replace the old economic system.

Larry,

Grypd · 2005-04-06 17:41:25

But derivatives are based squarely on something and this something is mostly a Bond or Share and it is bet that the value of this share will go up, if it does not you loose your money. Many small people bet on this and so do many financial institutions across the world. What you do is to gain ownership of a share or bond and hope it gains in value but if it does not you still own that bond or share. Also many corporations play the lottery that is derivatives.

If you pull the plug on derivatives you can only do this by announcing the Bonds will no longer be paid back. You have defaulted on the Bonds value and you have hurt a lot of people playing the lottery when the owners of the Bonds loose there money. And since a lot of financial institutions are in the derivatives trade quess what you default on the Bonds they have purchased, and so goes my post above.

Martian Republic · 2005-04-06 18:21:48

But derivatives are based squarely on something and this something is mostly a Bond or Share and it is bet that the value of this share will go up, if it does not you loose your money. Many small people bet on this and so do many financial institutions across the world. What you do is to gain ownership of a share or bond and hope it gains in value but if it does not you still own that bond or share. Also many corporations play the lottery that is derivatives.
If you pull the plug on derivatives you can only do this by announcing the Bonds will no longer be paid back. You have defaulted on the Bonds value and you have hurt a lot of people playing the lottery when the owners of the Bonds loose there money. And since a lot of financial institutions are in the derivatives trade quess what you default on the Bonds they have purchased, and so goes my post above.

Grypd,

Derivatives are neither Bonds or Stock and nor do derivatives use them for collateral either. Derivatives have no collateral nor do they have anyone promising to make them good either like a government or company or anything or anybody else for that matter. A derivatives is a bet that one currency will do better than another currency and if your right, you make money, but if your wrong, you loose money, but there no guarantee either way and there no guaranteed value to your derivative either.

So why engage in them if this is so and they are so volatile?

Remember the Asian Crises?

George Soros ran a run against those Asian counties and rifled the value of there currencies using the derivatives.

What did George Soros get out of this deal?

Oh, about 1.5 to 2 billion dollars!

That all he got out of it.

That why they engage in such risky investment like that, you can get such a high rate of return on your investment. Actually, it stealing, but they call it an investment.

Larry,

srmeaney · 2005-04-06 20:50:24

Mars Republic, You forget one thing, you can form credit on that scale. You are dealing with a loan borrowed against futures. Different from regular futures that are as a result of commodities which fail due to weather, or disease, these Futures that get a result at the same rate that the loan is used in the development of the resource. The problem is that as the credit is directed into the earth economy to build the value of infrastructure on Mars for the processing of Minerals and therefor incresing the value towards and beyond the futures with a value determined by what is ultimatly processed, the only thing that will end profitability is a catastrophic failure at the support level. There would have to be an economic failure of Earth. And considering that the growth produced by the contracts would be impossibly huge,
that failure would need to be of the same magnitude and effect as the 'end of oil supplies on earth' event. An event that would probably occur five years hundred years in (if we located every oil body on the planet that is yet to be found and sucked them dry). This would require those who profit from these contracts to look at producing their own hydrocarbons. To keep their own economy going, they would need to look at a possible conversion to Acetelyne engines. This is a Hydrocarbon that can be manufactured.

Martian Republic · 2005-04-06 22:27:06

Mars Republic, You forget one thing, you can form credit on that scale. You are dealing with a loan borrowed against futures. Different from regular futures that are as a result of commodities which fail due to weather, or disease, these Futures that get a result at the same rate that the loan is used in the development of the resource. The problem is that as the credit is directed into the earth economy to build the value of infrastructure on Mars for the processing of Minerals and therefor incresing the value towards and beyond the futures with a value determined by what is ultimatly processed, the only thing that will end profitability is a catastrophic failure at the support level. There would have to be an economic failure of Earth. And considering that the growth produced by the contracts would be impossibly huge,
that failure would need to be of the same magnitude and effect as the 'end of oil supplies on earth' event. An event that would probably occur five years hundred years in (if we located every oil body on the planet that is yet to be found and sucked them dry). This would require those who profit from these contracts to look at producing their own hydrocarbons. To keep their own economy going, they would need to look at a possible conversion to Acetelyne engines. This is a Hydrocarbon that can be manufactured.

I understand the creation of credit and how to use it in both a private banking system and public banking system. I would outlaw futures beside outlawing of derivatives. About the only things that I would leave in the stock market is the government bonds and the corporation stock. The present private banking system and stock market is designed for transferring wealth from the poor to a few wealthy people and to penalize the vast majority of both the American people and also the hole world population too. So just about everything you have to say about this private banking system and there investment policies, I will probably would agree with you on most of it.

But, having a public banking system under government control where the government generates credit and how they should use it. I understand a Hamilton National Banking System of generating credit investing in infrastructure, tax write off, low interest credit, etc. But, even then, there is still a limit to how much credit that you can produce and you don't have an unlimited amount of credit that you can produce, because it will be inflationary if you generate too much credit. I understand in borrowing from the future and I even know a few trick that you don't even know. Like writing off some of the credit that we originally created or put a time limit on it where it goes to zero value after a certain period has elapse. Hamilton called it self-extinguishing debt. But, generating over two trillion dollars of new credit to restart the US Economy and generating another one trillion dollars per year for say fifty years. That would be 52 trillion dollars. With that kind of credit, the United States can finance building levitated national train system inside the entire United States, build several city's, overhaul the electric power companies, Water system, etc. We would be able to put together a super size space program of putting a permanent base on the moon and even build a city on Mars.

Your always talking about building for the future, which I agree with, but you also have to have a functional economy for today too which make that credit worth something. Like about 90% of that credit that your generation will be use to building up the infrastructure of the productive sector of your economy and use the other 10% to do the kind of work that your talking about doing. You can’t just generate credit and spend it all for some future benefit and have nothing to trade with for other nations on earth. That just not going to happen. So you have to have a funtioning economy to work from to advance your space program and bring it into existance.

Larry,

Grypd · 2005-04-07 07:28:08

I understand the creation of credit and how to use it in both a private banking system and public banking system. I would outlaw futures beside outlawing of derivatives.

So you realise that it is the basic system of international and goverment buisness. Credit allows a company with a good rating to borrow to buy what it needs and then repay later when its money comes in. Without such a fluidic system a company would have to wait until it actually had its profit set down and could not take advantage of a good deal when it finds one.

About the only things I would leave in the stock market is the goverment bonds and the corporation stock

So how do people make money on something that will now have a set rate and will be worth less due to inflation than it was purchased on. This is what the derivative trade uses as one of its main items that shares and bonds will go up in value as people wish to purchase them. If they cannot be traded against then what use are they. So why buy them.

But, having a public banking system under goverment control where the goverment generates credit and how they should use it.

So letting civil servants basically run the show and a red tape heaven it would be too. And what could they invest in. That is how banks make money so they can pay interest, so getting customers to put there money in. Some pet senators project. That is certain to happen and with a likehood of 100% till the point it becomes the norm. It will start with a good cause till it is a vote buying standard. And all the time people will stop investing in anything belonging to the USA.

But, generating over two trillion dollars of new credit to restart the US Economy and generating another one trillion dollars per year for say fifty years.

So What you really are saying is to default on all those bonds and debts owned by banks and goverments outside the USA. And remember this what is a Dollar worth, There are more dollars in circulation than what was called the gold standard actually represents. And the Gold in Fort Knox is actually nothing like pure. A Dollar is only worth as much as the world believes it to be. If the USA decides then to show the fiscal stupidity of defaulting on all those bonds then it would get stung when people treat the Dollar as a worthless currency. To generate credit you must have something to base that credit on. Dont say the word of the USA it has already by defaulting proved to have none. So all this credit you now state you have would be worthless and it would be based on a dollar that is basically worthless and in a country in hyper inflation.

That would be 52 trillion dollars. With that kind of credit, the United States can finance building levitated national train system inside the entire United States, build several city's,

Sorry, had enough writing this down. As stated where would this credit come form what would it be based upon and who would buy it. And with a country where the Dollar is now worth about parity with the afghanistan Affra just try buying something or paying out wages. ( the Affra is worth 48 Affras to one Dollar). You would find that a lot of what was once American owned would now be foreign owned and like what occured to the USSR a case where the goverment and state authorities could not pay its employees or even garauntee food transportation.

We live in a world Larry where we are so interconnected that there is little room for grand economic experiments and our financial markets are what has been created over the centuries to the point we are pretty stuck with them here on Earth. One of the reasons I want to go to space is that we now have a place where we can try a different economy one which is more natural and better for people. But on Earth we cannot do it without highly possibly cripling ourselves. And having a lunar and asteroid and Mars economies trading with each other would make the Earth change itself especially if we went out of our way to ensure that we in space made sure we did it right in the firstplace.

Martian Republic · 2005-04-07 10:58:13

I understand the creation of credit and how to use it in both a private banking system and public banking system. I would outlaw futures beside outlawing of derivatives.
So you realise that it is the basic system of international and goverment buisness. Credit allows a company with a good rating to borrow to buy what it needs and then repay later when its money comes in. Without such a fluidic system a company would have to wait until it actually had its profit set down and could not take advantage of a good deal when it finds one.
About the only things I would leave in the stock market is the goverment bonds and the corporation stock
So how do people make money on something that will now have a set rate and will be worth less due to inflation than it was purchased on. This is what the derivative trade uses as one of its main items that shares and bonds will go up in value as people wish to purchase them. If they cannot be traded against then what use are they. So why buy them.
But, having a public banking system under goverment control where the goverment generates credit and how they should use it.
So letting civil servants basically run the show and a red tape heaven it would be too. And what could they invest in. That is how banks make money so they can pay interest, so getting customers to put there money in. Some pet senators project. That is certain to happen and with a likehood of 100% till the point it becomes the norm. It will start with a good cause till it is a vote buying standard. And all the time people will stop investing in anything belonging to the USA.
But, generating over two trillion dollars of new credit to restart the US Economy and generating another one trillion dollars per year for say fifty years.
So What you really are saying is to default on all those bonds and debts owned by banks and goverments outside the USA. And remember this what is a Dollar worth, There are more dollars in circulation than what was called the gold standard actually represents. And the Gold in Fort Knox is actually nothing like pure. A Dollar is only worth as much as the world believes it to be. If the USA decides then to show the fiscal stupidity of defaulting on all those bonds then it would get stung when people treat the Dollar as a worthless currency. To generate credit you must have something to base that credit on. Dont say the word of the USA it has already by defaulting proved to have none. So all this credit you now state you have would be worthless and it would be based on a dollar that is basically worthless and in a country in hyper inflation.
That would be 52 trillion dollars. With that kind of credit, the United States can finance building levitated national train system inside the entire United States, build several city's,
Sorry, had enough writing this down. As stated where would this credit come form what would it be based upon and who would buy it. And with a country where the Dollar is now worth about parity with the afghanistan Affra just try buying something or paying out wages. ( the Affra is worth 48 Affras to one Dollar). You would find that a lot of what was once American owned would now be foreign owned and like what occured to the USSR a case where the goverment and state authorities could not pay its employees or even garauntee food transportation.
We live in a world Larry where we are so interconnected that there is little room for grand economic experiments and our financial markets are what has been created over the centuries to the point we are pretty stuck with them here on Earth. One of the reasons I want to go to space is that we now have a place where we can try a different economy one which is more natural and better for people. But on Earth we cannot do it without highly possibly cripling ourselves. And having a lunar and asteroid and Mars economies trading with each other would make the Earth change itself especially if we went out of our way to ensure that we in space made sure we did it right in the firstplace.

Grypd,

This is the third time that I told you that we are not going to cancel Government bonds.

Canceling Government bonds aren't even on the table.

Derivatives have no moral right to exist in a financial economy and are they regressive and adds debt load without providing any goods or service to people who are being fleeced by those derivatives. Derivatives actually only have one purpose and that is to collect money for the person that generating those derivatives and taking it away from other people. For that reason along, derivatives should be outlawed by all government for the good of the vast majority of the world population. As a matter of fact, those people in Southeast Asian country that George Soro ripe off in the Asian crises and undid ten years of economic progress so George Soro could make 1.5 to 2 billion should be considered criminal act and outlawed international from ever happening again. You basically are defending thievery when you are defending derivatives and there existence. That kind of Wall Street investing, has no place in a healthy economic system. In the 19th Century they were called the Robber Barons.

We are talking about two types of banking system and your still stuck on the private banking system and how they work. In a private banking system they are selling the idea that money is wealth and the credit they create and becomes debt is also wealth. If the US Government take over the private banking system, your afraid that nobody is going to buy credit or the debt and pay interest on it. You think that the creation of debt selling of that debt to American, US Government or sell it on the world market and the charging interest on that debt is how you create wealth. Well, that not true. All that does is transfer wealth and does absolutely nothing for creating wealth. You giving some individuals or group of people the right to enrich themselves by having the right generate debt and sell it to you and then charge you 5% to 21% for the right to own that debt. Now if you consider that a good, OK fine.

But, under the US Constitution, only the US Government has the right to generate credit, coin money and regulate value of that money, set terrify, etc. Is the Government of the United States going to sell the credit that it just signed into existence like Federal Reserve does because it a private bank? No! No, were interested in the US Government generating credit for the purpose of charging interest on it and for the purpose of collecting money for those banks. We want the US Government to have that right to generate credit, because want to use that credit without it haven been flush through those banks first. We want the US Government having the power to build infrastructure inside the United States without having to raise taxes to finance it. The infrastructure inside the United States is collapsing and tax base inside the United States is also collapsing and some state have had there tax base collapse by 40% or 50% or more. So we can't raise taxes to pay these important infrastructure projects that we need to have built either or we will accelerate the economic collapse. So were going to generate some credit like FDR did to finance building these infrastructural project like subway, super trains, power plants, NAWAPA and other water project. Company like GM are at risk of going bankrupt and other major manufacturing. But with these new contracts on the table, they will have to stop laying off people and start higher people so they can get those contracts to make some money instead of going bankrupt. On this kind of government investing there a 3 to 1 or 4 to 1 return on there investment. The US Government will be getting 3 or 4 times as much as they put into the US Economy coming back to them. Beside have an economy that is growing and being productive instead of having one that is collapsing. Now for our space program we would like to take about 10% percent of that generated credit by the US Government to be dedicated to NASA and a New Space National Mission of some sort. We are just going to burn off about 10% of that credit without trying to get a return on it. Why would I do that? Because, we not trying to make money the way a business does. We are looking for a Kennedy Moon Mission with a return on our money of 14 to 1 of our money invested in that project. That 14 to 1 return on our money is coming from those spin off technologies as a result of us building our moon base and/or manufacturing facilities on the Moon. Then we will privatize the manufacturing facilities and mining companies, but let NASA keep those power plants, life support system, the water, the main complex, etc. Then we will go round two with the next generation of credit and develop and buy the next generation of space ship, shuttles, manufacturing facilities, space station for the purpose of next generation of spin off.

Now as to canceling debt not only in the United States, but also worldwide. Your not going to salvage 400 trillion dollars of worthless paper and that all there is to it. The present economic system is finished and it can't be saved. The only choice that we have to make is whether you choose to sacrifice hundred of million or even billion of people worldwide in an attempt to save this bankrupt economic system. If we choose to save this bankrupt economic system, then you can forget about going into space, because if we are sacrificing hundreds million or even billion to save this bankrupt system, then going into space is going to have a very low priority on the human consciousness. Like anything that bankrupt, we need a government judgment against it and put it into Chapter 7 bankruptcy reorganization and setup a new economic system to replace the old bankrupt one. Obviously the US Government is going to have to negotiate with other nations so that they can participate in this reorganization process too, because it affect them too.

Larry,

Grypd · 2005-04-07 14:41:50

You still have to answer me what would you base this credit on and who would value it. A Dollar is only as worth as much as the economic community think it is and this value is given at what the international community believe is the strength of the American economy. And the use and trading of derivatives gives a lot of this value by trading on what the Dollar will be worth.

Derivatives are based on something and Bonds are a good example who would buy a bond if it was not for the derivatives market. Actually no one. Derivatives are needed to finance and give interest to a bond otherwise they are a loan that has to be paid back by a goverment somehow and if you generate credit you will be coughing it back to the investors.

The derivatives are a means to an end do they need to be better regulised yes but if there was to be too much that it would seriously impose on them then our whole planets economy would suffer.

Martian Republic · 2005-04-07 18:54:30

>>>You still have to answer me what would you base this credit on and who would value it.<<<

That credit is base on the word of that United States and that when the US Government says that it worth this much, then they obligate themselvies to make it worth what they say worth. Also if the US Government is investing in the productive physical economy of the United States, they will have goods and services that will be generated by there credit, that will also help to convence people that the government word as to what that credit was worth is actually worth what they say it was. Also the US Government will set a fix exchange rate so people like George Soro can't stage a run on the US Dollar for short term profits.

>>>A Dollar is only as worth as much as the economic community think it is and this value is given at what the international community believe is the strength of the American economy.<<<

There are twp things that supposdly give the dollar it value. The word of the Federal Reserve System which is a private bank and the exchange rate between other currencies from other countries.

>>>And the use and trading of derivatives gives a lot of this value by trading on what the Dollar will be worth.<<<

Derivatives are not a foundation for anything, but is fiat money that has no real value.

>>>Derivatives are based on something and Bonds are a good example who would buy a bond if it was not for the derivatives market. Actually no one. Derivatives are needed to finance and give interest to a bond otherwise they are a loan that has to be paid back by a goverment somehow and if you generate credit you will be coughing it back to the investors.

The derivatives are a means to an end do they need to be better regulised yes but if there was to be too much that it would seriously impose on them then our whole planets economy would suffer.<<<

Derivatives are basically generated debt that shoved into a finantial economic system. Derivatives like cancer to heathy finantial economic system. Like cancer eats away at a healthy body and makes it sick weak and causes it to die, so do derivatives do to a healthy finantial economic system.

This is the forth time I have told you, it was the Government that generated the credit and not the investor or banks that created that credit. I not those bank nor those investor that are holding that newly generated credit, but it the US Federal Government that holding that new credit.

"WHAT THE MATTER WITH YOU"!

"THIS IS THE FORTH TIME THAT I TOLD YOU THAT IT THE US GOVERNMENT HAS THE CREDIT, NOT THE BANK OR THE PRIVATE INVESTOR"!!!

When the banks generate that credit, they set the rule by which you borrow that fresh money or credit, but when the US Government Generates that credit, they set the rule by which that new money or credit is use for and the terms. It the US Government that holding that credit and not those investors that are holding that credit. That credit in Uncle Sams hot little hands and not in those investor hot little hands.

Go to this web site read out there rigging the stock markets and the money supply.

http://www.financialsense.com/editorial … /0403.html

Larry,

srmeaney · 2005-04-07 19:31:51

That is why the Mars Colony sites will be mining sites with only small amounts of imported materials for construction. That means underground cities where the Mine is an extension of the City.
Ten million people living in a hollowed out planet.

That means Olympus Mons.

Grypd · 2005-04-08 13:25:24

That credit is base on the word of that United States and that when the US Government says that it worth this much, then they obligate themselvies to make it worth what they say worth. Also if the US Government is investing in the productive physical economy of the United States, they will have goods and services that will be generated by there credit,

Why would a foreign investor believe the Goverment of the USA.

There are twp things that supposdly give the dollar it value. The word of the Federal Reserve System which is a private bank and the exchange rate between other currencies from other countries.

Currently the Dollar is going down in value to most other currencies as people equate the USA as a faltering economy. If under your plan in the future you really have no control to do what you plan as it is the world in general that actually values the Dollar and if you do things which the world does not like you will get stung as in the Dollar becomes increasingly worthless

Derivatives are not a foundation for anything, but is a fiat money that has no real value.

They have value to the people who use them and rely on them to finance there buisness or to buy the fertiliser they need to grow there crops in the hope the harvest is great and the prices go up. Most trading of derivatives is based on this.

This is the forth time I have told you, it was the the Goverment that generated the credit and not the investor or banks that created the credit. I not those bank nor those investor that are holding that newly generated credit, but it the US Federal Goverment that holding that new credit.

Definition of credit = It is a financial term that refers to the granting of a loan and creation of debt.

So the USA Goverment creates this credit where does the money come from. Who invests in the USA to do this, You are creating an imaginery fund pot that is supposed to provide money if not then you are expecting people to invest in the USA to create this fund what surety do you give them and what if you default. You are creating a situation where the goverment simply prints money to pay for something and that causes only one thing devaluation of that currency.

"WHAT THE MATTER WITH YOU"
"THIS IS THE FORTH TIME THAT I TOLD YOU THAT IT THE US GOVERMENT HAS THE CREDIT, NOT THE BANK OR THE PRIVATE INVESTOR"

Thats easy its due to you never answering me, where does the money come from. Simple question, one you avoid.

Of course you could do this by saying that the USA would become like a bank and loan money to pay for construction of those things you want but then the Goverment would be paid back by those companies and those comapanies would own what they build and the right to charge what they like to use them. So in effect a privatising issue. Of course to spend trillions would basically result in no money in the USA Goverment to spend on anything else.

Remember what the Goverment has to spend is what it gets in taxes and earnings like issueing licences etc to do things. Spend more than this and your country is in deficit and it borrows money to pay for this with the intention to pay it back. As a countries debt grows through poor fiscal management then more and more of its money goes to servicing that debt. This is what is happening to the third world countries do you think they would love to be able to turn around and say we no longer have a debt we actually have X amount to spend each year just by say so.

Palomar · 2005-04-08 13:32:18

*Somebody bump the needle, huh? The record got stuck.

Oh...and I think you meant fourth time.

--Cindy

Martian Republic · 2005-04-08 20:00:49

*Somebody bump the needle, huh? The record got stuck.
Oh...and I think you meant fourth time.
--Cindy

No, actually I meant fifth time that I said it.

I suppose that I could tell him a fifth where that money or credit going to come from.

Second thought, I think I will just give it up.

Larry,

srmeaney · 2005-04-08 23:42:06

This is why it will be Space Commonwealth with the Nations of the Earth acting as the Bank, the Contractor, ect. The loan will be unique because it will be based on money that doesnt yet exist. It will need to be written against the value of what is out there which is pretty much infinite.

Grypd · 2005-04-09 05:17:17

right after our telling off by cindy...

To decide where we are going to create a colony on Mars is actually too soon. Unlike the Moon where there are places that have real advantages we dont have the knowledge yet of where these places are on Mars. Of course being near a source of water is an essential but it might be that we find an aquifer which would be even more useful as it would be a power source on a planet where Solar and wind are relatively a poor source of power.

And we also have other needs like maybe putting our first base on the equator so that we get an advantage on liftoff. Still I can quarantee that at the moment we do not have a definite plan for the first colony and I think we wont make plans for any colony until we have sent a manned expedition or two to Mars.

But that is for the future and our needs on an expedition like this will become more settled. By this I mean we will have a good idea what we actually need to have to create a functioning colony.

srmeaney · 2005-04-09 06:48:26

That is why survey data will be critical. It is going to be very hard to find, geological stability. We cant just land on a glacier and set up a base and expect it to be there fifty years later. That is not a long term option. Neither can we set up at the bottom of the Vallis Marineris and Not expect land slides.

A permanent Base will require massive Radiation shielding(rock), Minable resources (rock with useful stuff mixed in) and more living quarters than we can send (caves and tunnels cut in rock, aka Mines). Basicly once we get past a hundred at any given site, we need an underground city based on the mining and processing of major resource bodies.

90 million miles and two hundred thousand years just to live in caves...again.

err...what do you mean lift off? Once we get there, it has to be to stay. Sure we will probably need a vehicle to ship valuable things home like Paladium so the Zero-G lab on the ISS can produce perfect paladium lattice rods for cold fusion reactors and stuff, but other than that, why would we waste resources on bringing people back? This is the greatest Adventure, not a tourist trip.

Grypd · 2005-04-09 08:39:59

A permanent Base will require massive Radiation shielding(rock), Minable resources (rock with useful stuff mixed in) and more living quarters than we can send (caves and tunnels cut in rock, aka Mines). Basicly once we get past a hundred at any given site, we need an underground city based on the mining and processing of major resource bodies.
90 million miles and two hundred thousand years just to live in caves...again.

Not really a decent radiation protection can be done with just the use of about 6 feet of sandbagged dust plus the walls of the habitat.

We can dig a trench place our permanent facility in and simply cover it with martian soil. Plenty of radiation protection there certainly enough to protect the people living there and giving them earth like protection from cosmic radiation.

And we still live in caves, just what are houses but artificial caves

err... what do you mean lift off? Once we get there, it has to be to stay.

Well yes but, If we use a NEMF to do transport back and forth to any vehicle entering Martian space it will be economically cheaper than using vehicles that are launched from Earth and are one way shots. This improves transport between Earth and Mars and we will still send people who will want to return to Earth, maybe by undiagnosed problems that cannot be dealt with on Mars. Of course an NEMF will not really be an option for a Martian first colony but if we use cyclers then it will come and we may as well build for it.

Another advantage to being at the equator is that we benefit from the maximum amount of light that can fall on Mars and use it for solar panels. But even these will be poor energy supplies, But unlike other places in the Solar system Mars actually is a bit energy poor in sources where we can use.

Martian Republic · 2005-04-09 09:52:48

This is why it will be Space Commonwealth with the Nations of the Earth acting as the Bank, the Contractor, ect. The loan will be unique because it will be based on money that doesnt yet exist. It will need to be written against the value of what is out there which is pretty much infinite.

No! No! No! You don't totally understand the process either. You understand some of it, but your missing critical points too.

Most people on this board think that developing space is a private business concern and/or private investment job to complete. They think that the Government is the problem when it comes to developing space and that it the Government that restraining there actives. In fact, without Government investment and building infrastructure, there will be no development of space by private companies or investors.

You take the opposing extreme viewpoint or setting a financial house with the right to generate credit, but with no productive capability in it. Completely within itself to generate money and credit to finance building in space. Now we don't have a Space Commonwealth, but we have something similar already in existence. It called the World Bank, which is a rough approximation of what your talking about creating. World Bank is privately owned bank by other private banks which have stock holder. I personally don't like the World Bank or the Federal Reserve System because it violates the sovereignty of a nation. And I would not like your Space Commonwealth for the same reason. We don't want private bankers dictation economic policies to the individual government of the world and setting economic policies of those individual countries. We don't want to have a corporate or banker owning an American President like George Bush which is setting either the internal or external policies of the United States. Like George Bush’s external policies to promote those corporate and bankers policies which is why we have invaded other countries in the world. George Bush internal policies which were to defend there interest by raiding Medicare and is currently trying to run a raid on Social Security for the financial welfare of those bankers. The Space Commonwealth as you describe it, will be a continuation of these policies even if you could get it started, which is questionable. Your Space Commonwealth will look like George Bush's America under NAFTA and after George Bush's souring of most of our industries to other countries. The US dollars dropping like a rock. The trade imbalance between the rest of the world and the United States is 600 billion dollars and climbing. Twenty years ago when the United States use to manufacture there own goods and service we had a balanced in our trade with other countries and even had a surplus trade balance. Your Space Commonwealth produces even less than the United States does right now. Matter of fact, it produces absolutely nothing in the ways of physical wealth, so you Space Commonwealth will be all imports and no exports to other countries. So you will have to run a several trillion dollars worth of trade deficit per year for thirty or forty years or even longer to be able to get to those resources and in the mean time your going to be running up trade deficits. Your Space Commonwealth currency will drop like a lead balloon from 50 thousand feet in the air.

Now you had the right idea about credit, but we have to have a functioning economy to use that credit internally or otherwise that credit is useless to us. You can't go to some desert island and be the only person there and say now I'm going to generate my own credit and build great things. It doesn't work that way. But we can take a broken economy like the United States is right now and repair it by getting out of NAFTA, protect what ever is left of home industries that are still inside the United States. Now we use your credit idea in America to restart economic process and have a functioning economy and off that functioning economy we invest some of our surplus that been generated to build that space economy. But, you not going to do that in reverse order by building that space economy and then add that to a broken economy here on earth. That is not going to happen and you can forget that idea. And if you intend to hang on to that idea, your in pure fantasy world if you believe that you can do it in reverse order as to how I laid it out and how it needs to be done. Most people on this board don’t understand economic principle and how an economy is suppose to function.

Larry,

MarsDog · 2005-04-09 14:32:43

Equator, around 30 degrees East has both warmth and water.

That is where I would look to buid the first settlements.

RobS · 2005-04-09 15:51:26

I think we can make very nice, spacious housing on
Mars with a fair amount of light and windows. You just want to use wide overhangs to reduce cosmic radiation.

For example, let us imagine an apartment building ten meters wide and thirty meters long set inside an airtight dome. I won't say how big the dome is; it doesn't matter, the important thing is that inside the temperatures and pressures are fairly terrestrial. The buildings will be constructed after the dome is set up and can be built according to fairly ordinary techniques (steel frames, wall board, brick or vinyl siding; though possibly the buildings will be airtight as well for emergencies).

The building has a flat roof with a three-meter overhang on each side. Thus the roof is sixteen meters wide and thirty long. it is flat, is covered by 1-2 meters of soil, and has a garden for growing food. Flowering vines hang down the sides to make the garden area pretty.

On either side of the apartment building is a courtyard twelve meters wide; three meters of overhang from one building, six meters of grass, trees, and flowers, and three meters of overhang from the other building. The courtyard is "park" for recreation. Apartments have windows opening on the greenery. But since the outer edges of the building get more radiation than the interior, there are no beds near the windows; they're farther inside.

This would be a very attractive arrangement and would create a low radiation environment.

-- RobS

Grypd · 2005-04-09 15:51:35

We also have to plan in what will happen to such a colony in the future. The likehood of that water is its in the form of a perma frost and if we construct a colony on such a site and it then is under the influence of a slightly warmed Mars as a result of terraforming then we could have real engineering problems.

Even without the terraforming then we may still have problems as the colony will heat the soils under it and we could still get subsidence or worse as the permafrost melts.

Personally im not sure if this will be a problem but then again it is best we work out what might be and get fixes.

Martian Republic · 2005-04-09 16:56:48

We obviously would want to do a geological survey of the area so we would know that we are building our complex on bedrock, so we would not have a foundation problem. But, we would want to pick a place on Mars that we will be able to make a good soil for future plants and also near water and as many of the any other resources that might be available on Mars too. Being close to most of the resources that we need would be plus and would be very helpful for our first colony. After we had a colony of sufficient size, they could either build the transportation grid to the natural resources or build a small colony where those resources are and ship it back to the main colony. As far as the passive radiation shielding by putting dirt over the top of the complex, we could also generate a magnetic field or other such field on a local basis to also shield our complex too. But, we would also want a lower under ground section too kind of like a storm seller for emergencies of either losing our dome or radiation shielding either passive or artificially generated ones. That way we could guarantee a certain amount of safety and preeminence for our settlement.

Larry,

srmeaney · 2005-04-09 22:06:57

They need a colony they can expand without importing more building Materials from earth. Colonization requires a limit on the number of Habitat modules in favour of resource targeting and exploitation. If the survey probe says here is everything we need to build and sustain a million colonists, then that is where we send the temporary housing. Just until they can build what they need to expand population support to the million.
It is also easier to live in an underground tunnel than it is to build dome after dome from resources that will be needed for other things.

It just means that that the colonists will more likely be people with years of mining experience and technicians rather than some scientists and a few lab assistants.

That is part of why Olympus Mons is at the top of the list compared to Vallis Marineris.

As Pictures are as good as a thousand words, and certain persons keep refering to the idea of a city of millions on Mars as sci-fi fantasy, Anyone interested in a word-drawn image send your email to seanrobertmeaney@bigpond.com.au

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