God the know it all;

Dook · 2005-04-06 07:17:10

Oh, I know this one...
Good energy (souls) return to God, replenish the source, making what was good even better.
That would explain why there is a hell, if there is. I've always had a hard time believing in hell, much more than believing in God. Why would God abandon immortal energy? But if that energy formed from matter and decided, chose to be bad then God certainly wouldn't want it.
So if that is true then there is a real battle going on in the universe. Good vs evil. I wonder what happens if God loses?
If there is a God, and it sends people to hell, or heaven, why does it allow innocent children to suffer so a few souls can be saved?

God doesn't send people to hell, they go there on their own. How can God accept souls like the popes and Charles Manson together? You choose your fate, don't blame God for your or some other persons choices.

Why does God allow bad things to happen to good people? God created it all but he is not involved in anything after that. If God were involved with the decisions we make then we would be robots, and not responsible for our actions. Everyone has complete free will. Choose good, choose evil, it's all on you.

clark · 2005-04-06 07:28:48

God doesn't send people to hell, they go there on their own.

So god is not merciful? A brief time in the mortal coil can equal eternal damnation? Why would God be so harsh, considering that mankind is an imperfect creation?

Why does God allow bad things to happen to good people? God created it all but he is not involved in anything after that. If God were involved with the decisions we make then we would be robots, and not responsible for our actions. Everyone has complete free will. Choose good, choose evil, it's all on you.

That's all fine and well, but my point was that some people choose to be bad, and act out against those who are innocent. Why does god allow others to suffer so a few can be saved, or to choose between good and evil? Isn't it wrong that millions of children suffer so people can be given the choice to be good or bad?

Trebuchet · 2005-04-06 09:23:50

So god is not merciful? A brief time in the mortal coil can equal eternal damnation? Why would God be so harsh, considering that mankind is an imperfect creation?

I believe you're misunderstanding... the idea is that hell is a conscious choice picked by the person themselves.

That's all fine and well, but my point was that some people choose to be bad, and act out against those who are innocent. Why does god allow others to suffer so a few can be saved, or to choose between good and evil? Isn't it wrong that millions of children suffer so people can be given the choice to be good or bad?

The idea is, again, that free will is held inviolate, possibly because if there is no free will life would merely be a puppet show on a vast scale, Brave New World with God as World Director.

BWhite · 2005-04-06 09:46:34

So god is not merciful? A brief time in the mortal coil can equal eternal damnation? Why would God be so harsh, considering that mankind is an imperfect creation?
I believe you're misunderstanding... the idea is that hell is a conscious choice picked by the person themselves.
That's all fine and well, but my point was that some people choose to be bad, and act out against those who are innocent. Why does god allow others to suffer so a few can be saved, or to choose between good and evil? Isn't it wrong that millions of children suffer so people can be given the choice to be good or bad?
The idea is, again, that free will is held inviolate, possibly because if there is no free will life would merely be a puppet show on a vast scale, Brave New World with God as World Director.

I believe the foregoing is a rather accurate description of official Catholic theology. :up:

= = =

IMHO, God will allow some of us to enter hell becaue he loves us too much to take away our free will. Universal salvation is possible, just not very likely because of pride.

= = =

What if Lucifer sought to repent? Now there is a question. I am drawn towards saying God would forgive even Satan if the repentance were sincere.

Remember the prodigal son story?

clark · 2005-04-06 09:47:13

I believe you're misunderstanding... the idea is that hell is a conscious choice picked by the person themselves.

And they pick, consiously, eternal damnation? Here is the problem with this thesis- you have opposing viewpoints that all dictate what God's law are, basically, what choices you may exercise that will lead to hell. No where does God enlighten us, clearly, for all time, for all people, for each individual, to know which set of rules they should follow to determine their appropriate choices. It's a giant guessing game where, evidentily, the wrong guess equals eternal damnation. So in essence, you have a bunch of people believeing different things, and many of them following a set of rules they think are God's laws, but they could be wrong, but yet still believe they are doing what god wants, and because they guessed wrong, they are punished. My god, God plays a fair hand of poker here!

The idea is, again, that free will is held inviolate, possibly because if there is no free will life would merely be a puppet show on a vast scale, Brave New World with God as World Director.

I understand, so in order to have 'free will' God created an exsistence built upon the suffering of innocent millions so people have the opportunity to choose to be good. Millions suffer so one can be saved. Does that sound just?

clark · 2005-04-06 09:52:31

IMHO, God will allow some of us to enter hell becaue he loves us too much to take away our free will. Universal salvation is possible, just not very likely because of pride.

IMHO, God does no such thing. It's not free will if you are punished for exercising that free will. Punishment for the exercise of choice is a human concept, not a godly one.

By arguing for hell, you implicitly argue that life is an exercise in self restraint. Why? What is the puspose of God creating us, in all our choices, for the sole purpose to see if we can keep our arms and legs inside the vehicle at all times?

BWhite · 2005-04-06 10:46:18

IMHO, God will allow some of us to enter hell becaue he loves us too much to take away our free will. Universal salvation is possible, just not very likely because of pride.
IMHO, God does no such thing. It's not free will if you are punished for exercising that free will. Punishment for the exercise of choice is a human concept, not a godly one.
By arguing for hell, you implicitly argue that life is an exercise in self restraint. Why? What is the puspose of God creating us, in all our choices, for the sole purpose to see if we can keep our arms and legs inside the vehicle at all times?

Punishment is a human concept, not divine. I agree. Related, I also believe that those priests and pastors who say "Behavior A or Behavior B earns a ticket to hell" are gravely mistaken.

Hell is not punishment for past deeds. It is a consequence of choosing to fashion, shape or make one's own soul in a particular manner. John Keats wrote about this place being the "vale of soul making" - - and afterwards we live with the soul we made.

God puts no one in hell. We go voluntarily under our own power, so to speak, as a natural consequence of who we allow ourselves to become.

And the doorway to hell will be found in a very different location than the location most ministers and pastors loudly point to in public. I have long wanted translate the Good Samaritan parable into a 21st century context, with a televangelist, a GOP Congressmen and a gay rights activist. :;):

Ian Flint · 2005-04-06 10:52:48

And they pick, consiously, eternal damnation? Here is the problem with this thesis- you have opposing viewpoints that all dictate what God's law are, basically, what choices you may exercise that will lead to hell. No where does God enlighten us, clearly, for all time, for all people, for each individual, to know which set of rules they should follow to determine their appropriate choices. It's a giant guessing game where, evidentily, the wrong guess equals eternal damnation. So in essence, you have a bunch of people believeing different things, and many of them following a set of rules they think are God's laws, but they could be wrong, but yet still believe they are doing what god wants, and because they guessed wrong, they are punished. My god, God plays a fair hand of poker here!

You took the words right out of my mouth.

clark · 2005-04-06 10:55:32

Ugh... you sound like a certain Italian Professor I know, and argued with about this stuff. He is Roman Catholic too, in your vein, as it were. :laugh:

So if you believe as such, why fall in with the structure that does little to highlight this aspect?

Basically, this boils down to a philosphy of, "you made your bed, now lie in it." Which to me makes sense in a just god, who dosen't judge- he dosen't need to. We ourselves become our own judge, living with the eternity of the memory of our choices.

Thus, absolution comes from self-forgiveness, the hardest thing for any individual to achieve.

BWhite · 2005-04-06 10:58:25

And they pick, consiously, eternal damnation? Here is the problem with this thesis- you have opposing viewpoints that all dictate what God's law are, basically, what choices you may exercise that will lead to hell. No where does God enlighten us, clearly, for all time, for all people, for each individual, to know which set of rules they should follow to determine their appropriate choices. It's a giant guessing game where, evidentily, the wrong guess equals eternal damnation. So in essence, you have a bunch of people believeing different things, and many of them following a set of rules they think are God's laws, but they could be wrong, but yet still believe they are doing what god wants, and because they guessed wrong, they are punished. My god, God plays a fair hand of poker here!
You took the words right out of my mouth.

The biggest heaven? The smallest hell? I believe heaven will prove far more populated, with a far more diverse crowd that the self-righteously religious currently believe, and preach.

Cobra Commander · 2005-04-06 10:59:02

This "soul fashioning" argument as a dodge for the free will/eternal damnation problem, aside from being a bit contrived to start with suffers from another verifiable fatal flaw.

In my experience, most people don't know what they want and don't know why they do half the things they do. Free will itself is largely illusory, requiring (somewhat ironically) a supreme triumph of will to overcome inherent behavioral tendencies. Tendencies presumably hardwired in by the God that punishes us for his mistakes/sadistic programming.

Silly superstitious monkeys.

Edited By Cobra Commander on 1112806807

Ian Flint · 2005-04-06 11:00:40

Hell is not punishment for past deeds. It is a consequence of choosing to fashion, shape or make one's own soul in a particular manner. John Keats wrote about this place being the "vale of soul making" - - and afterwards we live with the soul we made.

That's a good point, but I must disagree with one part.
"this place being the 'vale of soul making' -- and afterwards we live with the soul we made."
What is so gosh darned important about this life? You (or Keats) infers that there is absolutely no improvement of the soul after death. The afterlife is static? If it is, then I 'pray' for atheism to be correct.

This 'static afterlife' is one concept that I just find preposterous, yet many religions proclaim it to be true. If there is an afterlife, then there must be a chance for change. Otherwise, the universe will be filled with billions of Dilbert souls -- stuck in a lousy cubicle for eternity. Even if it is a heavenly cubicle, it is still a cubicle.

BWhite · 2005-04-06 11:01:14

Ugh... you sound like a certain Italian Professor I know, and argued with about this stuff. He is Roman Catholic too, in your vein, as it were. :laugh:
So if you believe as such, why fall in with the structure that does little to highlight this aspect?
Basically, this boils down to a philosphy of, "you made your bed, now lie in it." Which to me makes sense in a just god, who dosen't judge- he dosen't need to. We ourselves become our own judge, living with the eternity of the memory of our choices.
Thus, absolution comes from self-forgiveness, the hardest thing for any individual to achieve.

A free thinking, Roman Catholic American = oxymoron squared. Okay, fair enough. Your point? :;):

More seriously, where else can I go? The Calvinists?

= = =

Yup. Self forgiveness is the hardest thing to do, just as lies told oneself, are the worst variety.

clark · 2005-04-06 11:02:41

In my experience, most people don't know what they want and don't know why they do half the things they do.

I don't know why I want the things that I want, and I don't know what I'm doing half the time.

BWhite · 2005-04-06 11:04:37

This "soul fashioning" argument as a dodge for the free will/eternal damnation problem, aside from being a bit contrived to start with suffers from another verifiable fatal flaw.
In my experience, most people don't know what they want and don't know why they do half the things they do. Free will itself is largely illusory, requiring (somewhat ironically) a supreme triumph of will to overcome inherent behavioral tendencies. Tendencies presumably hardwired in by the God that punishes us for his mistakes/sadistic programming.
Silly superstitious monkeys.

Yup. Good points.

I envision "free will" being more like a birthday candle in a maelstrom rather than a mighty oak tree we are all innately given.

Nuturing genuine free will is damn difficult.

Victor Frankl writes, however, that we are always free to choose the stance we adopt towards our circumstances and he exemplified that by providing useful psychological counseling to his concentration camp guards.

BWhite · 2005-04-06 11:06:01

Hell is not punishment for past deeds. It is a consequence of choosing to fashion, shape or make one's own soul in a particular manner. John Keats wrote about this place being the "vale of soul making" - - and afterwards we live with the soul we made.
That's a good point, but I must disagree with one part.
"this place being the 'vale of soul making' -- and afterwards we live with the soul we made."
What is so gosh darned important about this life? You (or Keats) infers that there is absolutely no improvement of the soul after death. The afterlife is static? If it is, then I 'pray' for atheism to be correct.
This 'static afterlife' is one concept that I just find preposterous, yet many religions proclaim it to be true. If there is an afterlife, then there must be a chance for change. Otherwise, the universe will be filled with billions of Dilbert souls -- stuck in a lousy cubicle for eternity. Even if it is a heavenly cubicle, it is still a cubicle.

I agree, Ian. But how else will the Pope keep the masses in check? :;):

clark · 2005-04-06 11:07:34

Here Ian, let me fashion your heaven:

God is this mighty roller coaster operator. We each get in our own buggy, and off we go on the magical ride called life. It has ups and downs, turns and twists. We can make them steeper, or shallower, longer or shorter- it all depends on our taste. At the end of the ride, we come through a long tunnel, and we disembark. We get to keep the memories of our ride, and some of us are sick from the ride, some of us are too busy telling others what a fantastic trip it was to get back in line for another, and yet others are already jumping back in the line for another go.

The only decision we get to make is how long we want to remember the last ride on the rollwer coaster... or, how many more rides we want to add to our collection. It's all up to us.

just remember to enjoy the ride.

Cobra Commander · 2005-04-06 11:12:33

just remember to enjoy the ride.

F**kin' a.

Trebuchet · 2005-04-06 11:35:21

The biggest heaven? The smallest hell? I believe heaven will prove far more populated, with a far more diverse crowd that the self-righteously religious currently believe, and preach.

I'd change that to "the obnoxiously religious".

As far as the heaven/hell thing, the folk saying about "The path to hell is paved with good intentions" is grossly misleading. Even if you don't have a fricking clue what the hell you're doing, why, or what you should be doing, so long as you're acting in good faith and realize that god forgives, you're safe for the afterlife. I think Catholics and the Orthodox christians have a doctrine called invincible ignorance or something like that which defines it more clearly.

As far as the bit about 'heaven being static', I've heard the theological theory advanced that when you die, you don't go to a 'permanent' heaven, so to speak, but basically spend time from then until the End of the World ™ observing things and being left free to make your choice. The literally apocalyptic events of those last days is supposed to make the existence of god quite clear to whatever people are left on Earth (1) so they can make an informed choice. The people in heaven don't need that (if an avowed atheist like flashgordon dies and ends up in some waiting-room type heaven like that, I'm assuming he's rational enough to change his opinions on the existence of God, for instance), but they still get to make their choices.

After that... well, there's something about a new heaven and a new Earth, and being free from death... so I suppose that annoying light-speed barrier wouldn't be a problem anymore. Anyone up for a grand tour of the universe? Only lasts a few billion years...

(1) An interesting thought: Revelations is a great story for the end of the world - you have sinister plots, a giant beast with ten heads ruling the world, and other plot elements that seem like the mutant offspring of Orwell and Kafka, but most of the events seem to be limited to Earth. Someone should tell Falwell and his crowd, perhaps we can get a boost to Mars colonization. (An interesting side note is that the bit about 'the rapture' in the Bible says that the believers were gathered from all over the earth and and also 'the heavens' (in the sense of 'outer space'). Unless this was referring to God picking off an astronaut or two in orbit, those people with the bumper stickers are a bit premature)

Ian Flint · 2005-04-06 12:03:47

New bumper sticker --

In Case of Rapture
Can I Have Your Space Ship?

Cobra Commander · 2005-04-06 12:16:59

Regarding rapture, I've always thought of it like this. What does it mean that God calls the faithful to him or however it's packaged. Presumably they go to Heaven. Well, that's what happens when you die. So, basicly a bunch of people die really fast.

Plague, my friends. When the super-flu comes rejoice, for salvation is at hand.

Or hole up in the woods with a bio/chem suit, a month's worth of rations and a pile of ordnance. Whatever suits you.

Edited By Cobra Commander on 1112811439

Palomar · 2005-04-06 12:28:39

Regarding rapture, I've always thought of it like this. What does it mean that God calls the faithful to him or however it's packaged. Presumably they go to Heaven. Well, that's what happens when you die. So, basicly a bunch of people die really fast.

*No. In evangelical/fundamentalist circles, they believe people will be taken up into heaven physically -- alive during the Rapture; they will be going about their daily routines and will suddenly be caught up in the heavens, transported physically like the prophet Elijah of the Old Testament.

What they figure happens to the physical flesh-and-bone body afterwards is anyone's guess (considering all other points of belief have a body-less soul/spirit inhabiting the heavenly realm)...that point isn't outlined much.

--Cindy

Cobra Commander · 2005-04-06 12:36:07

*No. In evangelical/fundamentalist circles, they believe people will be taken up into Heaven physically -- alive during the Rapture;

I know what they believe, but the core idea of that belief lends itself to a more rational explanation if one accepts the existence of the God behind it all in the first place. Afterall, God "kills" people all the time. How many times have we heard someone was "called to the Lord" or some such nonesense at a funeral? Right, God ran 'em over with a truck so they could get to Heaven right now. If God can do it on a small scale, surely the Rapture would just be a scaling up of the same method, would it not?

I enjoy tweaking them on this point among others whenever the opportunity arises.

Of course if one were disturbed enough one could also then argue that killing the faithful is doing God's work, but that still accepts the underlying premise held up by the established religions.

Palomar · 2005-04-06 12:42:55

*Well, I can only relate what my parents' denomination and similar churches believed. Many of them don't believe God had/has -anything- to do with death, decay, destruction whatsoever.

God = everlasting Light and Life.

Satan is the cause of death, decay and destruction.

Pure dualism. And "ne'er shall the two meet."

::sigh::

I've read some interesting philosophies which have tried to reconcile these opposites, but likely most others here have read some of those as well.

As for me, I'm an agnostic who appreciates Taoism.

--Cindy

P.S.: I thought you meant you understood the Rapture to mean "the Raptured" must physically die during the event.

Dook · 2005-04-06 15:02:41

A child may need to be told many times to share their toys with others or to not hit others but what does an adult really need to be told? Do you need to be told that you should not kill? That you should not take what is not yours? Do you really need to be preached at over and over again that you should not lie?

I believe we all know right from wrong inside and we should find the choices to make on our own.

You forget to bring enough money to work to pay for your lunch but you find $5 in the parking lot next to a co-workers car. Do you keep it thinking that it was God sent or do you at least ask your co-worker if they dropped something? If you kept the money, no one would know but you. Can you make the right decision on your own as though God were watching and testing you?

Making the right decision means that you denounce selfishness the most evil of all sins. It is a giant step.

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