Political Potpourri III - The next round.

BWhite · 2005-03-22 13:56:05

Is being in a "persistent vegetative state" the same as being dead? Reasonable people can differ, in my opinion.

Who decides if Terri Schiavo is in a "persistent vegetative state" or PVS?

No good will come from this case no matter what the final result.

Palomar · 2005-03-22 13:59:15

Does anyone else find this oddly amusing? We now have Senate Democrats saying that judges are too powerful, once a common charge from the Right and Republicans looking to the judiciary to further their objectives, a time-tested Democrat method of imposing their will. Both sides are calling for the very things they once claimed to despise.
Whether a donkey or an elephant, everyone's an ass today.

*Yes, which is precisely why some of us get fed up and figure "what's the use"? It's SO tempting to become apathetic. Not in cases like Terri's; no, I'm referring to the constant wrangling between the parties.

I'm -up to here- with it.

--Cindy

Shaun Barrett · 2005-03-22 18:44:39

Hmmm.
As more and more information comes to light (at least for me), the complexion of the case changes.

I thought Terri's family were to foot the bill for her ongoing care, not the taxpayers. Apparently not true.
All credible authorities seem to think she's in a PVS. Her responses are brainstem activity only.
There's no insurance policy (motive for skullduggery).

I'm tending toward euthanasia in this instance, though allowing Terri simply to die of neglect seems cowardly. If she is to die, something it seems likely she would have wanted for herself in these circumstances (not proven, but likely), then let's grasp the nettle and do the job properly.

BWhite · 2005-03-22 19:30:02

I have not read this http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/Wolfs … t.pdf]full report but it was written by a doctor appointed by Governor Jeb Bush to investigate the Schiavo case and apparently is an official government document. (Perhaps he is a PhD)

More comments as I find time to read it.

= = =

The report is very thorough and very professional. There has been no rush to judgment here and no one has been denied the opportunity to present their position (except Terri)

One comment: Jay Wolfson, selected by Jeb Bush to prepare a report for the Florida governor, explicitly rejects any allegation that Michael Schiavo has been acting for financial motivation.

7 or 8 years ago - - before all the money was exhausted on medical care - - he offered to sign away what money remained so any allegation that he was after the money could be satisfied. No money remains today.

= = =

What should be done?

The hell if I know. ??? I do not know what is best.

However, Michael Schiavo does appear to be the victim of a continuing smear campaign.

Edited By BWhite on 1111542691

BWhite · 2005-03-22 20:15:02

Another good non-sensationalist source of information on the Schiavo case is here:

http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infop … opage.html

There are no villians in this story.

The facts of this case are terribly sad, but they are not hard to understand. There's really nothing to be confused about, and as best I can tell, nothing's been overlooked by anyone. Terri's situation has arguably received more judicial attention, more medical attention, more executive attention, and more "due process," than any other guardianship case in history. Terri's family has had the benefit of excellent legal representation as well as the Governor's own top-notch attorneys, all of whom have scoured the case for ways to assist the effort to keep Terri's feeding tube in place.

Edited By BWhite on 1111544138

Palomar · 2005-03-23 14:17:46

http://et.tv.yahoo.com/celebrities/2005 … vo2/]Thank You Patricia Heaton!

*Thank god for people like her (to be honest, I didn't know who she was until I read this article...we don't watch many current network TV shows):

Patricia feels that Terri's life should be respected. "I think we have to be so careful about taking somebody's life," she says. "I think we've gotten to the point in society where you kind of have to prove your value. We're getting to the point where it's being said that it's okay to dispose of you."

I completely agree. Mel Gibson, Pat Boone and Randy Travis are speaking out, too. And the Vatican issued a statement yesterday, saying depriving Terri of food and liquids is nothing short of capital punishment.

****

Now look what Michael Schiavo (Terri's "husband") says:

But Terri's husband told the "Today Show": "This is Terri's wish,"

PROOF? Where's your legal document proving that assertion? Or is it simply YOUR wish?

just like it is a wish of everybody in this country,"

Oh really? Now you're not only speaking on behalf of your wife, you also purport to speak on behalf of "everybody in this country," huh?

"This happens to people every day."

I can hear the yawn in his voice. Cold-hearted <choice expletives deleted>

--Cindy

BWhite · 2005-03-23 14:29:26

Okay, I have changed my mind.

Let's put back the feeding tube and have a trial on whether that poor woman's cerebral cortex has turned to fluid. Whether there is any brain function beyond the brain stem.

Frankly, I now believe a televised trial concerning all of the medical science relating to her condition would be very beneficial for all of us.

Palomar · 2005-03-23 14:38:56

Terri Schiavo has not received any nourishment since the tube was pulled Friday afternoon. By late Tuesday, Terri's eyes were sunken, her skin was parched and flaking and her lips and tongue were parched, said Barbara Weller, an attorney for the Schindlers.
Doctors have said she could survive one to two weeks without the feeding tube.
A lawyer for Michael Schiavo said he was "very pleased" by the initial appeals court ruling.

*Is Michael Schiavo visiting Terri during the death process? Is he watching "her wishes" being fulfilled? Or is he hiding behind the locked door of his home?

By all means, this is the woman he claims to have loved, to be only looking out for *her* best interests, to have gone on all these years seeking to fulfill *her* wishes.

He should be there, each day and for at least an hour straight, until she dies.

Right?

--Cindy

P.S.: http://www.michnews.com/artman/publish/ … tml]Heaton, Gibson, Travis, Boone & Galley speak up for Terri Schiavo.

Australian-born recording artist Wayne Galley, who wrote an inspirational song entitled “Terri’s Song” among others on his “LIFE” CD on behalf of Terri Schiavo

BWhite · 2005-03-23 15:41:39

Like I said, put the tube back in. If she dies on Good Friday, we will be having a civil war by Easter.

Put the feeding tube in then let a thousand scientists study her brain.

= = =

Would anyone describe Terri Schiavo as lucid?

Tom Delay http://www.time.com/time/nation/article … 0.html]did!

Edited By BWhite on 1111623623

Palomar · 2005-03-24 14:50:23

*Well, regardless of which side of the Sciavo battle you're on, or if you're not, here's an update:

Ten people arrested yesterday for trying to get inside the hospice and give Terri water.

Supreme Court won't hear the case.

The last resort is Jeb Bush taking complete charge of the situation, taking custody of her as Gov. of Florida, which he can do ... but WILL he do it? One issue he faces is whether the public will consider him as over-reaching his authority and power, should he do so. He won't be running for FL Gov again, but apparently has a White House bid in mind.

Strikes me as beyond real that it only took Timothy McVeigh less than 10 minutes to die, but it could take 2 weeks for Terri.

-*- -*-

On a different but related note: White evangelical Christians were polled. 68% oppose Congress and Pres. Bush's intervention in this matter.

What is up with that?? Aren't they the ones always pushing FOR a faith-based government? A theocracy of sorts? Don't they believe God appoints all world leaders? NOW when gov't officials DO step in, they've got a PROBLEM with it?

Well dad, you were right...don't bother trying too hard to figure people out, you'll go nuts trying. :bars:

--Cindy

P.S.: Bill -- no, Terri isn't lucid. But her autonomic nervous system is still mostly/totally functional and she does seem responsive to tactile stimulation, voices, etc. Probably not a definite recognition along the lines of "Oh, that was mom touching my arm" or "That's Nurse Jones' voice"...but she's not entirely brain dead; again, her ANS is functional.

I'm very curious to see what Jeb Bush will do.

Palomar · 2005-03-24 15:07:00

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s … r_s_book]A fad? The development of something more sinister?

*And a novel about war between Turkey and the U.S. is a best-seller.

"Turks think they are being exploited. They are angry with the demands of the European Union and United States. But those who anger them the most are Kurdish nationalists," he wrote. "Turks who think they're are being stabbed in the back read Hitler. That is a ... very dangerous development."

Okay...those folks have a problem with Turkey being a member of the EU, so they're gobbling up a book written by a European. :hm:

My dad was right.

--Cindy

(Don't tell me, I already know: Somehow it's the U.S.'s fault Turkey joined the EU. Yep.)

BWhite · 2005-03-24 15:08:54

Frankly, I hope Jeb Bush does send in the marshalls and for the next 12 months we have a continuing public forum on how the brain stem works and whether this poor woman's cerebral cortex has utterly withered away.

I also think this case could make great precedent for the idea that state governments owe a duty to keep people alive. Universal public medical care is a great idea. If the state "should" keep Terri alive, there are thousands or millions of other people who are lucid, and can talk, but lack money for medical care.

As for the polls, in my opinion, most people believe she is already "dead" in every meaningful sense. That is why they answer the polls they way they do.

But lets give her one more chance. Jeb Bush should intervene and then we can have neurologists and other doctors appear on every talk show imaginable and we can decide whether is she really alive or not.

= = =

PS - - A movement is developing to send Bill Frist photos and videos to request that he diagnose various other conditions, since he is so talented at video medicine.

"Dear Senator Frist, here is a photo of my mole. Is it cancer?"

= = =

PPS - The silence of all the other "usual suspects" is deafening.

Palomar · 2005-03-24 15:12:27

*You're exaggerating, Bill.

Spare me the hyperbole.

--Cindy

BWhite · 2005-03-24 16:31:22

I think we need to fund more http://www.timesargus.com/apps/pbcs.dll … ES07]brain injury research.

A http://www.neuroskills.com/index.shtml? … ml]further resource.

http://www.neuroskills.com/index.shtml? … html]Based on this I would like to know whether these types of tests were done on Terri Schivao.

Should the state be responsible for paying for tests like these for all brain injury patients?

= = =

PS - - It appears these tests use MRI technology which is problematic for Terri Schiavo as there are metallic based implants in her brain. An MRI machine can cause these implants to move around causing even more damage and I recall some evidence that the implants can damage the MRI machine itself.

Edited By BWhite on 1111704129

Palomar · 2005-03-25 15:12:52

http://cagle.slate.msn.com/news/TerriSchiavo/]Political cartoons re: Terry Schiavo

*Check out the one on the bottom of page 7, by Scott Bateman. I heard a reference to that on the news the other day, but didn't catch all of the facts.

-*-

One humorous cartoon: GOP & Dems, Nick Anderson.

--Cindy

BWhite · 2005-03-25 17:39:16

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mp … 87387]Baby Sun

BWhite · 2005-03-25 18:38:12

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7295706/]Iranian arms spree

Think maybe they are making preparations, for something?

My fear is that Russia (lesser extent China) will smuggle some high-tech weaponry. Bagging a B-2 or two would be a PR coup in the 3rd World.

Again, my concern arises from US leaders who intend to rush in recklessly without prudence.

BWhite · 2005-03-25 20:05:54

http://www.baynews9.com/content/36/2005 … l]Contract on Michael Schiavo - - Tom Delay and Bill Frist - - by saying Terri Schiavo is lucid - - share responsibility for this.

BWhite · 2005-03-26 12:27:07

Bennett seems to be showing alarming signs of irony. I have always found that irony among the lower orders is the first sign of an awakening social consciousness. -- Henry Carr in Travesties

I learned three things in Zurich during the war. I wrote them down. Firstly, you're either a revolutionary or you're not, and if you're not you might as well be an artist as anything else. Secondly, if you can't be an artist, you might as well be a revolutionary... I forget the third thing. -- Henry Carr

http://www.courttheatre.org/home/plays/ … shtml]Link

Edited By BWhite on 1111862916

Palomar · 2005-03-29 08:11:01

*I have a question.

Why does the media differentiate between "soldiers and Marines"? I saw a news item a few days ago regarding "2 soldiers and 1 Marine" having been killed in Iraq that day.

Just wondering.

--Cindy

BWhite · 2005-03-29 10:38:01

Dog, meet http://billmon.org/archives/001785.html]tail.

The truth is that the Bush administration is now captive to the Shia coalition, not the other way around – just as earlier administrations became captive to a series of South Vietnamese presidents, from Diem to Thieu, who stubbornly refused to sacrifice their own narrow interests to serve an American-made strategy for winning the war (or, in the end, for losing it gracefully.)
As in Vietnam, the United States now has absolutely no choice but to continue financing and supporting its Iraqi clients, even if they behave in ways that are contrary to U.S. interests or desires – by imposing Sharia law, for example, or moving closer to Iran, or purging the Iraqi security forces of Iyad Allawi’s paleo-Baathist allies, or even double crossing the Kurds as soon as the ink is dry on any power-sharing deal. In the end, there is literally no place else for the Americans to go.

Cindy, the Army and the Marines are distinct branches of the military with unique customs. A Marine is a Marine, hence more than just a soldier.

Edited By BWhite on 1112114342

SpaceNut · 2005-03-29 12:20:11

Will this ever answer the question.. ?
Schiavo's husband plans autopsy; Parents say they, too, welcome it once Terri Schiavo passes away

As Terri Schiavo began her 12th day without food or water on Tuesday, the feud between the brain-damaged woman's parents and husband escalated when the latter requested an autopsy once she dies in order to prove that she could not have recovered.
George Felos, the attorney for husband and guardian Michael Schiavo, said the chief medical examiner for Pinellas County, Dr. John Thogmartin, had agreed to perform an autopsy before her remains are cremated.
He said that Michael Schiavo, who has convinced courts that his wife told him years ago she would not want to be kept alive artificially under such circumstances, wants definitive proof showing the extent of her brain damage.

Oh by the way if it were up to me, He would have also been required to fast until she passed as an equal measure to get at the truth. This is just wrong..

Palomar · 2005-03-29 13:06:27

Will this ever answer the question.. ?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7293186/] Schiavo's husband plans autopsy; Parents say they, too, welcome it once Terri Schiavo passes away
As Terri Schiavo began her 12th day without food or water on Tuesday, the feud between the brain-damaged woman's parents and husband escalated when the latter requested an autopsy once she dies in order to prove that she could not have recovered.
George Felos, the attorney for husband and guardian Michael Schiavo, said the chief medical examiner for Pinellas County, Dr. John Thogmartin, had agreed to perform an autopsy before her remains are cremated.
He said that Michael Schiavo, who has convinced courts that his wife told him years ago she would not want to be kept alive artificially under such circumstances, wants definitive proof showing the extent of her brain damage.
Oh by the way if it were up to me, He would have also been required to fast until she passed as an equal measure to get at the truth. This is just wrong...

Cindy, the Army and the Marines are distinct branches of the military with unique customs. A Marine is a Marine, hence more than just a soldier.

*Okay, thanks Bill.

Hi SpaceNut: Regarding Terri Schiavo, I've read that article. Rev. Jesse Jackson visited with the parents today, offered his support, etc. Nice of him. The situation is wearing on my nerves and some of my acquaintances in other forums. Yesterday I unexpectedly blew up at a cashier in a store; it came out of NOWHERE and shocked even me. I quickly apologized twice; the cashier graciously accepted the apology.

I cannot fathom the hell the Schindler family is going through. They asked the folks protesting to go home, but many of them have gone to D.C. Latest article I've read says 80% of Americans believe the politicians should have stayed out of the situation from the get-go; and someone interviewed for the article asked the very pertinent question of HOW often do you see 80% of Americans agreeing on *anything* these days?

As for what an autopsy might be able to prove...who knows.

Sad situation all around.

Again, I believe this is wrong too. No injured animal would be subjected to this sort of death process in a vet's clinic or animal hospital.

--Cindy

Palomar · 2005-03-30 06:57:36

Trauma]http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1548&ncid=1548&e=2&u=/afp/20050329/lf_afp/usmilitaryhealth_050329173039]"Trauma Pod" -- robotic surgical system

*Pentagon looking into development of this for care of wounded soldiers. Remote-controlled surgery.

Thought I'd put this here, instead of Science & Technology, to avoid a spinoff of political discussion in that folder.

--Cindy

Palomar · 2005-03-30 14:23:34

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u … ]Attempted 1981 assassination: Soviet KGB

*Why would they have wanted to bump off the Pope? I remember that incident quite well.

--Cindy

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