Metric Conversion - Pros and Cons

Nirgal82 · 2002-10-23 12:19:01

This is it, the thread you've all been waiting for, heh heh.

Well here is where you should post you opinion on the Metric system, and reasons for converting to it in the USA. (or reasons against converting to it)

My opinion is that we should make the conversion here in the states ASAP. Converting will be a major undertaking, but the hardship involved in doing so will be far less than having to deal with the strange system of measurments invented arbitrarily according to some monarch foot length and what not (if those myths are true, any English out there who can clarify?)

Your friendly neighborhood Martian...
-Matt

Nirgal82 · 2002-10-23 12:25:39

I think one of the reasons, primary reasons, that the US has not converted is the cost of doing so.
Imagine the cost, local and federal, of changing EVERY SINGLE ROAD SIGN with anything standard written on it.
Aren't values on the american stock exchange also given in standard? (ex: barrels or oil)

Incidentally, I find it strange that the country that invented the standard measures no longer uses them, while the country that broke away from them more than 200 years ago still uses the old ENGLISH system. You'd think that whole US pride and patriotism stuff woulda kicked in as soon as metric became availiable, eh...figures...

Your friendly neighborhood Martian...
-Matt

Nirgal82 · 2002-10-23 12:27:06

Another plus to switching, already touched on by Phobos in the "Homework Help" thread, no more Mars probe foulups with getting the type of measurment wrong...

-Matt

Byron · 2002-10-23 15:01:34

My opinion is that we should make the conversion here in the states ASAP. Converting will be a major undertaking, but the hardship involved in doing so will be far less than having to deal with the strange system of measurments invented arbitrarily according to some monarch foot length and what not (if those myths are true, any English out there who can clarify?)

You mean I'm not alone in thinking that the US should switch over to metric ASAP?? Wow...this is news to me...

Sure the cost of converting would be high, but the cost of using an antiquated system that is totally out of sync with the rest of the world is even higher.

I had the opportunity of spending several months in Australia and New Zealand when I was younger, and I found after about a month, I was thinking completely in metric..i.e., I 'knew' what 15 degrees C felt like, and how far a 100 meters was...and it really is an easier system to use...believe me!

To me, there is absolutely no question...metric is the way to go. Let's get metric now and ditch the most stupid system of measurements ever invented by man...

B

Phobos · 2002-10-23 15:13:26

I never considered the cost of changing all of the road signs out there over to metric units. I guess there's finally a good argument against converting to the metric system. I pretty much agree with Byron's points, the best reasons to switch is simply because the metric system is much easier, more precise, and the rest of the world is using it. I remember when I worked as an engineering technician the hell I'd sometimes go through having to use both systems. It was especially bad when taking certification tests. There was more than once when I missed questions because I remembered the number to use in the imperial system but couldn't remember its metric equivalent or the formula used to convert between imperial and metric. I think what I like most about the metric system though is that you dont get into annoying situations where you to subtract things like 5 4/5"-3 7/8". God I hated that, especially when I didn't have calculator handy. With metric its easy to stick to whole numbers because it has more units available and its easy converting between units by just moving decimals.

Incidentally, I find it strange that the country that invented the standard measures no longer uses them, while the country that broke away from them more than 200 years ago still uses the old ENGLISH system. You'd think that whole US pride and patriotism stuff woulda kicked in as soon as metric became availiable, eh...figures...

LOL, the next time someone accuses me of being a godless traitor for wanting to chuck the imperial system, I'll have to bring up that fact about England.

Phobos · 2002-10-23 15:35:49

*I've been thinking your response over, and you might be onto something. The US is a rather religious nation, and at least in the 1980s [and prior to] a lot of Christian sects were opposed to "one-world-ization." I seem to recall that many Christians I grew up with disliked the metric conversion plans because it smacked of some nefarious plan to further advance the cause of a "one-world government."
::shrugs::
--Cindy

To respect Nirgal's desire to keep his other thread from being hijacked even further off topic I decided to reply over here. But I think your right about the "One World" conspiracy theories keeping the imperial system on life support. I've noticed it's usually Christians who get most up in arms about it, even though I've noticed in the past that if you refer to something in metric to people in general they sometimes wonder if there's something "different" about you. I actually think there's a small stigma attached to using the metric system in certain situations. I can just see someone telling the guy driving the grader that the grade is "21 centimeters too high". I guarantee you'll get that "you g-ddamned communist" look. Because from their point of view only outsiders and communists use units like that.

clark · 2002-10-23 16:00:21

I'll play.

It owuld be more conveniant if we all spoke the same langauge- seems by estimate, the native language used by the most people is Chinese. Should we all learn Chinese then?
Isn't that effectively the argument for converting to metric? Most people use that, blah blah blah.

As for ease of use, I learned the US measuring system when I was 5, most people have no difficulty learning our "antiquated" system, so ease of use is idle opinion when comparing it to the metric.

I know how long a foot is, I know how much a gallon is- base ten be damned.
Should we round Pie to make it easier to memorize? Then why should we learn metric becuase some feel it is easier to memorize due to base ten?

Sure, standards allow greater effeciency and reduce costs, but do we neccessarily need this homoginzation of our perception? It would be eaiser on all of us if we all agreed on one body type for a car- is this really desirable? So why should measurments themselves be any different?

I also find it rather appalling that many here have declared that a government that governs least is the best possible, yet now clamor for more government intrusion into how we measure things- I mean my god, if metric is such a superiuor system, why would the government have to impose it on all of us? Shouldn't we be allowed to decide how we would like to have things measured?

And if you disagree with me, then yes, you are a pinko commie bastard.

Number04 · 2002-10-23 16:14:03

Well, I use a mix of both. All the math I do is in metric, but I still weigh my self in pounds and what not.
Anyone that knows how to use it knows it's easier. Anyone that has done any kind of work with binary knows that a base ten is better then a base-what-ever-the-hell-we-feel-like 1/2

I hate trying to figure out what 4 and 5/16th of an inch is.

We count in base ten, so why not do all our math in base ten? I do.

Palomar · 2002-10-23 16:58:10

I'll play.
It owuld be more conveniant if we all spoke the same langauge- seems by estimate, the native language used by the most people is Chinese. Should we all learn Chinese then?
Isn't that effectively the argument for converting to metric? Most people use that, blah blah blah.
As for ease of use, I learned the US measuring system when I was 5, most people have no difficulty learning our "antiquated" system, so ease of use is idle opinion when comparing it to the metric.
I know how long a foot is, I know how much a gallon is- base ten be damned.
Should we round Pie to make it easier to memorize? Then why should we learn metric becuase some feel it is easier to memorize due to base ten?
Sure, standards allow greater effeciency and reduce costs, but do we neccessarily need this homoginzation of our perception? It would be eaiser on all of us if we all agreed on one body type for a car- is this really desirable? So why should measurments themselves be any different?
I also find it rather appalling that many here have declared that a government that governs least is the best possible, yet now clamor for more government intrusion into how we measure things- I mean my god, if metric is such a superiuor system, why would the government have to impose it on all of us? Shouldn't we be allowed to decide how we would like to have things measured?
And if you disagree with me, then yes, you are a pinko commie bastard.

*I got a chuckle out of your reference to the Chinese and their language, and "blah, blah, blah," Clark.

Actually [prepares to duck for incoming rocks], I tend to agree with Clark on this one...believe it or not!

Why should the ENTIRE U.S. change to metric? Of course, the business, commerce, and trade people need to know the conversions, particularly when and if dealing with foreign clients.

What does it matter to someone in Canada if lil' ol me reads the outside thermometer as 74 degrees Fahrenheit? It doesn't matter to them. And yes, the cost of altering and/or replacing all those public road signs would be enormous.

--Cindy

Nirgal82 · 2002-10-23 17:32:58

Clark,

I think your argument against metric (i.e. if we switch because most people use metric, then we might as start speaking Chinese because most humans speak it, which by the way is probably a strange thought to most people) is invalid. Unless you are talking about the efficiency of conveying information, I wonder if anyone has done a study to calculate exactly how much information can be exchanged by different languages given a perion of time, hmm...

Anyway, I digress...
Metric is a best system yet developed because of the ease of conversion from one size unit to another. A simple system of 10s, moving decimal points.
And sure, I'm sure all the American born and raised people on this list had little to no trouble learning and applying the standard system, but I'm sure that in the back of everyone's mind when they were first learning this as a child she/he had the feeling that something just wasn't right the way these numbers came together.
Metric rectifies this perfectly in my mind, it makes sense, only the base units, m, l, g, and the like, are arbitrary.
In the end all systems of measurement are completely arbitrary, I think we should be using the one that is a little less arbitrary than the others.

Your friendly neighborhood Martian...
-Matt

Nirgal82 · 2002-10-23 17:38:07

As for everyone agreeing on a single body of car,
This argument is also invalid in that choosing a car body is up a person's own tastes and everyone having the same body of car really doesn't solve any of the automobile industry's problems.
If every car produced was exactly the same, then that would probably make capitalism in the automobile industry impossible, wouldn't it?
Anyways, I'm sure the USA isn't keeping the Imperial measures for purposes of style, I'm fairly sure it is the initial cost of making the conversions

-Matt

Shaun Barrett · 2002-10-24 02:58:17

Hi everybody!
I'm not American so my opinion may not be welcome here. I suppose America's choice of a system of measurements is nobody's business but hers. And, to be honest, it isn't something I worry about a great deal.
Actually, when I was in the good ol' U.S. of A, I really enjoyed seeing the old units again - it was a walk down memory lane for me! And I was quite pleased to find I could switch back to miles and degrees Fahrenheit with little trouble. Unfortunately, we didn't have occasion to shop in supermarkets so I didn't get a chance to buy anything 'by the pound' or 'by the quart', which would have been interesting!

I like individualism, at least to a certain degree, and I don't see why the American people shouldn't be allowed to go their own sweet way when it comes to measurements. They've managed it successfully up to now, and the world hasn't fallen down around our ears! (The odd Mars probe may have fallen down around the Martians' ears .... but that's another story! ??? )

And as far as cars are concerned, I happen to have a soft spot for the old Chevs, Dodges, Fords, and Buicks etc. from the fifties and sixties! Mobile metal sculptures, some of them were just plain ugly, but some were glorious creations which make today's designs look very bland and uninteresting.
I agree with Clark 100% on car design. If cars get any more similar, it will be a further loss of diversity in a world which can ill afford to lose what little diversity it has left!

I can't help but point out, however, that Clark's reference to how many people speak Chinese, in his defence of America's system of measurements, is a bit of a red herring.
I did a little research and discovered that, although it's true more people speak some dialect of Chinese than any other single language, those people still constitute only 19.31% of the world's population.
On the other hand, fully 94.6% of the world's population use the metric system!
If you judge by the numbers, it turns out there's nearly 5 times more reason to go metric than to speak Chinese!!

Mark S · 2002-10-24 05:28:08

I fell in love with the metric system when I began to study physics as a high school junior, and life has never been the same.

If America went metric, I believe that it would make science and mathematics easier for schoolchildren and encourage many more of them to pursue technical careers. Because the Customary system doesn't have consistent (or base ten) conversion factors, it introduces more opportunities for error.

In the 1970s, futurists predicted the death of the customary system. People were sipposed to work in both systems during the transition period and move to metric by the end. Looks like we're still caught in the beginning of the transition.

The government has a role in the metric conversion. It should set the standard by using both customary and metric units in all publications and projects (including the interstate highways.) When the government changes its ways, people will begin to follow.

A question to all non-American posters in this forum: how did your respective countries convert to the metric system?

Byron · 2002-10-24 05:59:53

I also find it rather appalling that many here have declared that a government that governs least is the best possible, yet now clamor for more government intrusion into how we measure things- I mean my god, if metric is such a superiuor system, why would the government have to impose it on all of us? Shouldn't we be allowed to decide how we would like to have things measured?

I will have to agree with you there, clark...nothing is worse than having the government forcing what the majority does not want down their throats...

Using whatever measurement system is and should be a matter of personal choice...just like whatever language you prefer to speak. Like, for example, here in south Florida, a sizeable proportion of the population speaks almost exclusively in Spanish. English may be the 'common' language of the US, but if people want to speak Spanish, and if they can get by within their community doing so, who's to say they can't?

Using the metric system is a matter of personal preference, as well as a practical one...it's just plain easier to work with metric than imperial measurements. Sure I know what a gallon is...but I, along with most other Americans, know how much a two-liter bottle holds, as that happens to be a common standard in American supermarkets. A very good example of the practicality of metric trumping the old English system is the U.S. military, which uses metric for all their operations. They use it because, once the recruits get over getting used to using metric, it really is easier and quicker to use...an important consideration in military operations. Many private corporations use metric for their internal operations in order to mesh with their foreign counterparts...it's the cost of conversion that's high, as opposed to the actual 'cost' of using imperial units.

As far as the road signs go, I never heard anyone complain about the cost when the speed limit was raised from 55 to 65 and 70 mph...all they had to do was put new stickers on the existing signs, something they could easily do again at trivial cost if we ever did start using kilometers instead of miles. (not that it'll happen anytime soon!)

I don't know about the current state of the educational system today in the US, but when I was growing up, we had to learn both..does anyone here on this board in the U.S. have kids in public schools? I'd like to know if that's what's still being taught in the schools now...

Yes, I think a public conversion to metric would be 'nice,' but if 95% of the population doesn't want to change over, I guess I'll just have to deal... ??? Swimming against a rip current is pretty much a futile effort, so I'll just leave it at that...good 'ol feet, inches, and Fahrenheit will be around for a while yet in the U.S. of A....

B

clark · 2002-10-24 06:12:32

So a question still left unanswered, why should the government dictate to us as individuals what manner of measurment we MUST use? It seems to me that a preponderance of people in America, which happens to be a democracy by the way, use the Imperial system. So, here we have a democratic government of sorts, that is supposed to reflect the will of the people- you know, what THEY want, and yet still some hold to this notion that the scientists and matematicians should be given this one to just "make it easier" on the rest of us. How are the interests of the majority of people in America served by switiching to a measuring system that is udderly alien to them?

Saying that it would lead to more children being scientists and mathmaticians is also a bit of a "red herring" if you ask me- unsubstantiated opinion. As I pointed out in my previous post, it would be infinitely easier if we rounded PI, why don't we just round PI to make it easier for the kids? It may lead to more scientists and blah blah blah.... would you accept this logic for PI? That is what some sughgest with the metric for kids argument.

Another interesting fact is that most countreies in the world do not allow the death penalty, should America then have to submit to this majority held opinion? It's fine if you say yes, at least that leads to a consistency of logic- but I doubt many would feel it is the same- yet the underlying rationale would be.

You need better reasons than "everyone else is doing it, so we should too". That is not a legitimate justification for an act- it is rationalizing behavior to meet an end. You need a better reason than "kids will learn easier". That is unproven and unknowable really- and plenty, on the orders of millions, of kids learn and excel in the imperial system.

The only reason that seems to exsist that justifys coversion is that it would satisfy some intellectual elites who somehow feel they know what is best for others (please do not take this personaly, this is directed at no one, just a general perception of the basis of this argument which has gone on for decades).

Again, if base 10- if metric is so wonderful, why don't we see more people willingly convert to that system? Why don't we see movements of people demanding that the government that represents them display information in metrics?

The sheep obviously don't care, so why bother them?

Byron · 2002-10-24 06:15:41

In the 1970s, futurists predicted the death of the customary system. People were sipposed to work in both systems during the transition period and move to metric by the end. Looks like we're still caught in the beginning of the transition.
The government has a role in the metric conversion. It should set the standard by using both customary and metric units in all publications and projects (including the interstate highways.) When the government changes its ways, people will begin to follow.
A question to all non-American posters in this forum: how did your respective countries convert to the metric system?

Isn't that was supposed to happen back in the '70's when the U.S. was making a big push for metric? I remember all the dual signs and side-by-side comparisions...remember the old bank thermometers? But alas, that didn't do the trick, and you hardly ever see side-by-side measurements anymore. In the US, at least, people are extremely resistant to change...

B

Byron · 2002-10-24 06:30:08

Again, if base 10- if metric is so wonderful, why don't we see more people willingly convert to that system? Why don't we see movements of people demanding that the government that represents them display information in metrics?
The sheep obviously don't care, so why bother them?

Because, as I just mentioned before, people are highly resistant to change - even if they 'know' that change is actually good for them. It's the "security blanket" syndrome...people are comforted by what they know and are used to, irregardless of practicality or ease of use or whatever. Maybe 50 or 100 years from now, things will be different. That's the thing about living in a democracy...even if a group of leaders/intellectuals/whatnots know what's 'best' for the people, it's a no-go if that's what the vast majority of people do not desire. I would also have to say that's not such a bad thing, either...

But if we're talking about "starting over" somewhere else, like *Mars*....then there's really no excuse not to use metric..lol.

B

clark · 2002-10-24 07:08:23

Because, as I just mentioned before, people are highly resistant to change - even if they 'know' that change is actually good for them.

Again, you are claiming that conversion to metric would be "good for them"- how would it be good? Quantify the "goodness".

How will converting to metric improve anyone's, or more importantly, most people, lives in a meanigful way? If it dosen't, what point is there in mucking about with a system that at least works to meet the needs of the people who use it?

It's the "security blanket" syndrome...people are comforted by what
they know and are used to, irregardless of practicality or ease of use or whatever.

I understand this point, by I fail to see how it applies to the US measurement systems. It seems that if everyone is using a system of measurment for 250 plus years, it *just* might be considered practical, and it *just* might be indicitive of its ease of use.

It would be more practical if all cars had the same body type. It would be practical if all clothes looked the same. It would be practical if we all spoke the same language. It would be practical if everyone just listened to me and did what i told them.

Yet each of these, and more importantly, the last reason, have no legitimate REASON to be done.

As for Mars not having an exscuse for not using metric, I ask again why? Base ten is arbitray, and it is not neccessarily easier to learn or know- its just a mnemoic device for matmatic. The Mayans had a base 20- and they were around for quite a few years, developed advanced astronomy and matmatics as accurate as today.

Admit it, the whole basis for converting to metrics is to satisfy a certain few who think they know better. The arguments for conversion all sound like something we would hear from a used car salseman- it's economical, easy to learn, works great, and was used by little old ladies only on Sunday... surly there is a more legitimate reason.

Base ten works so well becuase we have ten fingers and then we simplyu add '0' to the end between units of measurment- but so what?

A mile is a mile, who cares how many feet are in it- I can look it up if I need to. A kilometer is a 100 meters. Okay, me knowing that has improved my life how?

And maybe a reason not to convert would be the horrific result of redetermining property lines. Everything is in acres and hectares- things get taxed based on SIZE- units of measurment get rounded- how many tax dollars might be lost in all the 3/4 meters or 2/7 meters that would result from conversion?

But, itmight be nice to simply have ONE set of tools neccessary for bolts- I hate having to hunt through all those socket wrenches or having to determine if a bolt is in metric or imperial... but I hardly see that as a reason to force people to learn a system that is foregin to them.

The reason in my mind that the US has not converted is simply due to our cultural arrogance- I don't belive americans are resistant to change- the last 100 years in this country have seen sweeping changes in our society.

Give it time, maybe the world will see the wisdom in the imperial system and perhaps Mars will lead the way.

Oh yeah, you're all pinko commie bastards for disagreeing- except Cindy, she is obviously a superior and patriotic American.

Where's Mcarthy when ya need him.

Byron · 2002-10-24 08:19:52

clark:

Again, you are claiming that conversion to metric would be "good for them"- how would it be good? Quantify the "goodness".
How will converting to metric improve anyone's, or more importantly, most people, lives in a meanigful way? If it dosen't, what point is there in mucking about with a system that at least works to meet the needs of the people who use it?

IMHO, using metric will improve people's lives to a measurable degree. Although base 10 may be an 'arbitrary' thing, we cannot ignore the fact that using base 10 is easier on the brain than using odd ratios. As any economist will tell you, efficiency and productivity is the key to raising the overall standard of living, and if people in the U.S. used metric, productivity and effeciency would surely rise as fewer mistakes would be made, calculations would be easier, and trade with other nations (who are all almost all universally metric) would be cheaper and more effecient as well. Do you not think greater efficiency and productivity is a good thing? Obviously the U.S. military thinks so...why else would they use metric? Quickness and accuracy is extremely important on the battlefield, and and there is little doubt among military strategists that using metric is definately the 'better' way to go. Just ask anyone who has served in the military why metric is a better system than the 'classical' system of measurements.

I understand this point, by I fail to see how it applies to the US measurement systems. It seems that if everyone is using a system of measurment for 250 plus years, it *just* might be considered practical, and it *just* might be indicitive of its ease of use.

If you went back in time 1900 years and paid a visit to Rome, and ask people at random whether their system of numbering was the most practical system to use, they would surely say "Yes!" After all, it had been in place for hundreds of years, and it worked fine. Never mind that long division using Roman numerals was nearly impossible...it was there, people were used to it, why change? But when the old Roman empire faded away and humanity 'started over' with the rise of the Great Western Civilization, the Arabic system of numbers was used in place of Roman numerals. Why? Because it was easier on the brain and far more efficient to use. Can you imagine having to use Roman numbers in our modern, technological society?...no way, Jose.

And maybe a reason not to convert would be the horrific result of redetermining property lines. Everything is in acres and hectares- things get taxed based on SIZE- units of measurment get rounded- how many tax dollars might be lost in all the 3/4 meters or 2/7 meters that would result from conversion

Give me a break, clark. With our superior computing power, not to mention all the handy calculators lying around all over the place, converting old English measurements to metric isn't that hard to do. Sure, mistakes would be made, but they could easily be rectified. My lot is approx 80 feet by 155 feet...in metric that would be 24m by 47m...that took me, like 6 seconds to figure that out...lotta work, huh? As far as rounding goes...wouldn't that average out on both the plus and negative sides? Different numbers, same result in the end.

But, itmight be nice to simply have ONE set of tools neccessary for bolts- I hate having to hunt through all those socket wrenches or having to determine if a bolt is in metric or imperial... but I hardly see that as a reason to force people to learn a system that is foregin to them.

Who said anything about forcing people to use metric? Not I. I'm simply attempting to demonstrate why using metric is more logical and easier on the noggin than the old system of measurements. Nothing wrong with that, is there?

The reason in my mind that the US has not converted is simply due to our cultural arrogance- I don't belive americans are resistant to change- the last 100 years in this country have seen sweeping changes in our society.

I'm not going to argue that point...Americans can and do change if they see that it will directly improve their lives. Will metric improve people's lives? Maybe, maybe not. But if 96%+ of the world have decided that metric is indeed the better way to go, what's the logic in going against the tide...especially in this age of global interconnectiveness, etc.? Metric has made significant inroads into American society...see my earlier responses - and there's no reason why this trend will not continue in the future. I say go with the flow...we don't want to force things upon people, but let's not hold back on the basis of sentimentality...

B

Palomar · 2002-10-24 08:34:19

*Here's another example of how metric and standard are used interchangably in the USA: I'm currently transcribing a medical report, and the doctor [like all doctors, and as usual] refers to laboratory values in terms of "grams," "picograms," "millimeters per minute," "millimoles," "per 1.73 meters squared," etc., etc.

However, when assessing abrasions, bruises, cuts, scratches, etc., doctors will more often than not refer to their dimensions in terms of inches. Some will refer to centimeters, but not always. Patients' height and weight are usually measured and dictated in terms of feet and inches, pounds and ounces, although some doctors [few] dictate the measurements solely in metric terms...and quite a few doctors will dictate BOTH standard and metric measurements! ???

I guess I'm so used to the either/or situation that I'm usually not consciously paying attention to it. Except celsius...damn celsius, Fahrenheit forever!!

--Cindy

Number04 · 2002-10-24 09:09:46

1Km = 1000m just to clear that up

Everything is in powers of three. Everything. Electrical properties, (Volt Amp and Ohm) Lengths (Meter) and volumes ( L )

What i mean by that is a KM is = to mX10^3

a MegaMeter is mX10^6

A litre is just L, but a millilitre is LX10^-3

It's just so easy, why would you not want to use it?

At least learn to use both, and convert. If you do, I guaranty that you will want to switch.

to convert

Look at any electrical component. A kilo ohm resistor? A capacitor in mill farads? That?s metric.

clark · 2002-10-24 09:15:26

Although base 10 may be an 'arbitrary' thing, we cannot ignore the fact that using base 10 is easier on the brain than using odd ratios.

One arbitray system is better than another arbitrary system? LOL! You go to far Byron. I still don't see the evidence that demonstrates that base 10 is inherently easier than the Imperial system.

As any economist will tell you, efficiency and productivity is the key to raising the overall standard of living, and if people in the U.S. used metric, productivity and effeciency would surely rise as fewer mistakes would be made, calculations would be easier, and trade with other nations (who are all almost all universally metric) would be cheaper and more effecient as well.

Huh, I'm stumped. How would trade be made cheaper or more effecient in any appreciable way? As far as I can figure, *I* say I have X gallons of oil for sale- you want *X* liters to buy- I know my size, you know your size, so you tell me that you want 1/2 a gallon to meet your need. As you pointed out, we have calculators in this modern miracle of a world, so this issue of "it makes calculation easier" is a bit misguided since we are using machines to do a preponderonce of our math to begin with.

Obviously the U.S. military thinks so...why else would they use metric?

Ever hear the saying, there is a right way, a wrong way, and the Army's way?
The US military is fine instution, however, it dosen't neccessarily engage in the most effecient or most sensible policies at all times. There number on priority is to be effecient at destroying the enemy- other than that, you see what you want to see.

I might also suggest that the use of metrics is more a function of our international alliances that require interoperability between many nations that use metrics.

Never mind that long division using Roman numerals was nearly impossible...it was there, people were used to it, why change?

Umm, probaly something to do with the fall of the roman empire, and a decline in education which was revitalized in the middle ages with the rediscovery of Arabic sciences. But then, that would be a legitimate answer.

Can you imagine having to use Roman numbers in our modern, technological society?...

I am reminded of a simpsons episode where Bart is confronted with several doors, all excpet one lead to lions- the doors are marked in Roman numerals and he previously had neglected to learn the roman numerals earlier in class- Miss Crobopple warned him. Just sharing, no point.

I would imagine that all those wonderful architectures that the Romans built might have involved mathmatics and the use of fractions.... i wonder how they did fractions?

...no way, Jose.

"...and yet it moves."

With our superior computing power, not to mention all the handy calculators lying around all over the place, converting old English measurements to metric isn't that hard to
do.

This is a strike against your argument. If it aint so hard to convert, why do we need to convert?

I'm simply attempting to demonstrate why using metric is more logical and easier on the noggin than the old system of measurements

Yet no reason offered makes logical sense. It's all opinion becuase the systems are arbitrary to begin with.

I'm not going to argue that point...Americans can and do change if they see that it will directly improve their lives.

As opposed to changing when it WON'T improve their lives? LOL. Just teasing ya. Seriously though, what point is there in changing something if there is no benefit from the change?

But if 96%+ of the world have decided that metric is indeed the better way to go, what's the logic in going against the tide...especially in this age of global interconnectiveness, etc.?

Again, a weak point to base this argument on. A majority of people live in poverty, does that mean we should as well? And those 96% haven't neccessarily decided that metrics is the best way to go, it works the same there as here, they just use what they are FAMILIAR with. You see, America got in late on that whole colonization thing- we missed out on the opportunity to instill our version of measurements on other people.

Metric has made significant inroads into American society...see my earlier responses - and there's no reason why this trend will not continue in the future. I say go with the flow...we don't want to force things upon people, but let's not hold back on the basis of sentimentality...

I wholehartaly agree, it has made significant inroads, however, letting individuals decide is a better course of action than ramming down some social policy with no legitimate and substaniated evidence that it would improve people's lives or is even neccessary.

Nirgal82 · 2002-10-24 09:48:20

Clark,

Simple question,

How come you are OK with the government pushing the old imperial measures down out throats then?

If anyone here is pushing for conversion, they don't want it to be used only because of some sort of mandate from above.
They are arguing the practicality of the metric system.
And as for the language and poverty thing, (which according to you if we should adopt metric because of majority rules, we should also adopt Chinese and poverty because most people speak and live that way) these arguments don't make sense, switching to metric is just easier on the mind, I'm not sure how much easier Chinese is to learn and speak for a non-chinese than it is to learn english for a non-english speaker.

I may be stepping into hot water for saying this but...
Clark, I thought you were all American, I'm not making my argument based on it, but you respond to the majority rules thing strangely, I thought that was Democracy, plain and simple.
Thats cool though Clark, I like that, at least one American is thinking individually...

-Matt

clark · 2002-10-24 10:24:50

How come you are OK with the government pushing the old imperial measures down out throats then?

The imperial measurments are established, and have been so since the begining of our American History- it is a part of America. Now, most americans have grown up learning this system, know this system, can work and function in this system, yet there are some who contend that this system that has and does work should be scrapped for something that is "easier". I fault this assumption becuase there is no definitive way by which to establish that the metric is superior to the imperial. If the majority of people in America want metrics, then I say more power to them, but that isn't the case.

If anyone here is pushing for conversion, they don't want it to be used only because of some sort of mandate from above.

Yet that is ultimetly the only way you will see the change over that some want, and that is what I have a problem with. Look back at the posts, "sometimes leaders have to do what is best for the people becuase they don't realize..." Whil I can understand this sentiment, I do not feel it applies in this situation. That's my point.

They are arguing the practicality of the metric system.

And I am trying to demonstrate that the "practicality" is mumbo jumbo. It would be "practical" to do a lot of things differently than we do now, I tried pointing to just a few, yet "practical" is not neccessarily the best reason to do something. It would be "practical" to enforce contaceptives on all women below the age of 18- as this would reduce the number of abortions, children put up for adoption, and end much of the cycles of poverty that engulf many communities. Yet, is this practical idea somethign we should implement?

And as for the language and poverty thing, (which according to you if we should adopt metric because of majority rules, we should also adopt Chinese and poverty because most people speak and live that way) these arguments don't make sense,

No, the argument that is based on "well everyone else is doing it" is not an argument to begin with- that is my point. If everyone jumped off a bridge, would you? The logic dosen't work on our parents, so why should it work here?

switching to metric is just easier on the mind, I'm not sure how much easier Chinese is to learn and speak for a non-chinese than it is to learn english for a non-english speaker.

No. this is an assumption. Metrics is easier for SOME people- you happen to be one of them. I on the other hand am lost when it comes to dealing with metrics, so the reasoning that is it just "plain easier" on the noggin is an opinion based on anecdotal evidence, which you happen to be a part of. 95% of the american population dosen't leave the US (no passports)- why would they need to know metrics?

Clark, I thought you were all American, I'm not making my argument based on it, but you respond to the majority rules thing strangely, I thought that was Democracy, plain and simple.

Democracy is mob rule- and it is the only thing worse than being ruled by a minority. With that said, I fully support decisions that are made in a democratic manner and applied equally to all members of the group. Yet here is the situation that is being set up, a group of people will tell me and you how we are to weigh things, measure things- where does someone else derive the authority to tell *me* or *you* how we measure things?

If I accept that someone may do something, or make me do something, than equality dictates that I may do the same to them- which inevitably leads to us telling each other how to live our lives. You need to travel outside the US to understand the significance of this idea.

If I measure in Imperial, and you in metrics, and others in Roman or Mayan, who is hurt? Where is there an issue of saftey if I want to buy my gas in gallons and my soda in liters? If there is no issue of saftey, then why make a law? Why instutionilze the manner in which we are supposed to live, why can't we simply be left to live?

Josh Cryer · 2002-10-24 10:45:32

Wow clark, you're sounding like me. No laws?

Hey, I agree, there. Let people use what systems they want to use. Personally, I think metric isn't ?big? enough. When I think, ?centigrade? I think, ?cold,? but when I think ?fahrenheit,? I think ?warm.? 32 degrees is a lot ?colder? than 90 degrees, even though they're the same temperature, just in different systems.

If people want to build a road that is ten garbledunks long, I could care less what measuring system they use! If anything it would ?inconvenience? me by ?forcing? me to understand their systems of measurment, and compare it to my own.

This isn't, obviously, to say that I don't think that there won't be a system which is unified. I think people will find it confusing to have all sorts of random systems, but the point would be, is that such people wouldn't be mandated not to. Rationality and uniformity can exist without tons of physical laws dictating that it should.

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