Return to flight slipping

Manchu4 · 2005-02-11 13:32:19

Let's suppose that when we RTF that a minor crack in some tiles is discovered after docking with ISS. What NASA executive is going to make the decision that its not too bad to return to earth? And who would want to pilot a ship with untested patching that might be attempted? The whole affair reminds me of Challenger. Safety decisions should be left to the shuttle commander in such a case after being briefed thoroughly briefed by the ground.

GCNRevenger · 2005-02-11 13:34:00

The Shuttle crews are volunteers, and they are quite willing to "go lemming" against odds that are higher then what NASA is prepared to expose them to. That is not a problem.

Manchu4 · 2005-02-11 14:43:37

Yes I know the astronauts are willing to take the risk. My point is NASA has not really changed in their thinking. I believe that a RTF should include an ISS stop. However, there will be considerable pressure to return the shuttle to earth even if marginal conditions exist with the heat shield. Cancelling the shuttle at this point would be a better solution. Let the Russians service the damn thing and let's move on. I know this won't happen but Mars awaits.

GCNRevenger · 2005-02-11 15:56:44

I am with you entirely, get on the VSE and forget about the ISS... but the political realities are that America has a treaty obligation to launch the ISS pieces that only Shuttle can launch before the ISS gets too old. The domestic political reality also exsists that if ISS and Shuttle were pulled tomorrow, there would not be enough justification to keep around the Shuttle army while they figured out their next job. With the current plan, Shuttle operations are slated to be phased out in the last years of flight, and gives time for NASA employees - a major voting block and economic force - to adjust (or retire for the older ones). And then there is the public outcry that we would be we "abandoned it before it was done!"

SpaceNut · 2005-02-25 09:56:18

Astronaut trains for risky rescue

NASA astronauts are training for what would be the most spellbinding mission in shuttle program history.
Four astronauts would rocket off on an unprecedented and risky rescue mission if Discovery suffers potentially deadly damage during NASA's first post-Columbia flight.
To do so, NASA would have to hurry Atlantis to the launch pad and ready it without skipping crucial tests.
The flight to the station would be carried out like any other rendezvous and docking at the station. The trip home, however, would be a bit unconventional.
Lindsey and his crew would have to set up Atlantis so 11 astronauts -- a world record -- could be returned to Earth.
That would involve arranging seven chaise lounge-like chairs for Discovery's astronauts on the ship's middeck -- an area designed to accommodate four or five.
The four-man rescue crew would come home on the flight deck.
The decision to launch a rescue mission, however, would be difficult.
NASA in all likelihood would have to put Lindsey's crew and another shuttle at risk before investigators pinpointed the cause of Discovery's damage.
And even if it was apparent, it's unlikely a permanent fix could be in place before the rescue mission would have to get under way.

Ad Astra · 2005-02-25 17:43:06

My big question is what the astronauts will do if Discovery's TPS is damaged. Will they wait for the rescue shuttle, or will they risk it with the repair kits? I get the impression that the astronauts don't put a lot of faith in the repair methods.

If NASA could fully automate the orbiter, the potential exists for rescuing the crew and saving the orbiter at the same time. That way, the astronauts could patch the damage and fly it back unmanned in case the patch isn't good enough. The astronauts, better safe than sorry, stay holed up in the ISS until their rescue shuttle arrives.

SpaceNut · 2005-02-28 06:02:36

There first steps are to access the damaged area then after nasa review to attempt possible repairs with what ever kit is provided for the damage type. The assessment would be done robotically with a followup by the crew when deemed necessary.
As some may note, the shuttle as well as the ISS are like an albatross and that we should end both now. The Return the albatross to flight

In The Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner, the mariner shoots an albatross and all the wind goes out of his sails. He draws the conclusion that the albatross was the key to the wind and metaphorically wears the albatross around his neck to represent the heavy regret of having shot the albatross. Once free of the albatross, the wind returns and the mariner is saved.

So thou the GAO estimates that the return-to-flight costs will exceed $2 billion. I wonder how much of the original budget dollars were saved by no flights during the past years that ultimately has been paid to the shuttle standing army. To do what I might ask? ???

SpaceNut · 2005-03-01 05:44:10

Space Shuttle Processing Status Report Feb. 28, 2005

Discovery (OV-103)
Mission: STS-114 - 17th ISS Flight (LF1) - Multi-Purpose Logistics Module
Vehicle: Discovery (OV-103)
Location: Orbiter Processing Facility Bay 3
Launch Date: Launch Planning Window May 15 - June 3, 2005
Launch Pad: 39B
Crew: Collins, Kelly, Noguchi, Robinson, Thomas, Lawrence and Camarda
Inclination/Orbit Altitude: 51.6 degrees/122 nautical miles
In Orbiter Processing Facility bay 3, orbiter system testing is 96 percent complete on Discovery for its mission, designated STS-114, to the International Space Station. Final work and closeouts are progressing well in preparation for Discovery's roll over to the Vehicle Assembly Building in mid-March.

It would seem that some damage was done to one of the Solid Rocket Boosters' in that, paint and cork repairs were needed on the aft inactive stub ring surrounding the booster located about 10 feet below the External Tank (ET) attach point.

Atlantis (OV-104)
Mission: STS-121 - 18th ISS Flight (ULF1) - Multi-Purpose Logistics Module/Crew Rotation
Vehicle: Atlantis (OV-104)
Location: Orbiter Processing Facility Bay 1
Launch Date: Launch Planning Window July 12 - July 31, 2005
Launch Pad: 39B
Crew: Lindsey, Kelly, Sellers, Fossum, Nowak and Wilson
Inclination/Orbit Altitude: 51.6 degrees/122 nautical miles

While Endeavour (OV-105) is in a major overhaul status not slated for any launches in 2005.

SpaceNut · 2005-03-03 08:14:29

The current resupply progress has brought to the ISS items needed for when the next shuttle does arrive.
International Space Station receives cargo vessel

the digital cameras and lenses that station residents will use to photograph Discovery's thermal tiles in the search for damage were brought by the Progress. The shuttle performs a quick backflip before docking with the station, presenting Discovery's belly for Expedition 11's crew to take the pictures during a 90-second window. The shuttle will be 600 feet below the station.

How the shuttle has improved since the last disastrous accident a Q & A article By LEE BOWMAN.

SpaceNut · 2005-03-04 10:19:51

Stennis Space Center NASA tugboat crew critical in engine testing of Space Shuttle Main Engine. It is test-fired eight minutes, it consumes 132,000 gallons of liquid hydrogen and 49,000 gallons of liquid oxygen. they also In addition provide fuel for the certification of the RS-68 engines that power the Delta IV rockets to space.

SpaceNut · 2005-03-04 20:05:28

The next step in any attempted shuttle rescue has been taken in that the Space Shuttle's Second Redesigned External Tank to Ship from Michoud for use on the Space Shuttle Atlantis.

The first redesigned tank, ET-120, was shipped from New Orleans to Kennedy Space Center in December 2004. It will launch NASA's STS-114 Return to Flight mission planned for May. It incorporated several safety improvements, including an improved bipod fitting that connects the tank to the Orbit; a video camera mounted on the liquid oxygen feed line to photograph liftoff; reversed bolts on the flange of the tank's mid-section and a new process for spraying the thermal protection required there; redesign of the bellow, or "joints" for movement, along the liquid oxygen feed line, the 70-foot pipe that feeds liquid oxygen to the Main Engines; and a more defined spray procedure on the longeron, a structural support for the tank's aft, orbiter attachment struts.
NASA's second redesigned tank has been outfitted with temperature sensors and accelerometers, used to measure vibration, which will gather information about how it performs during flight.
Temperature sensors will be mounted on the tank's two forward "bipods." Each tank has two bipod fittings that connect the tank to the Orbiter at the Shuttle's two forward attachment struts. These sensors will monitor the temperature of the bipod web, the flat section of the bipod located between the fitting and the attachment plate.
There also will be seven accelerometers on the tank. Three will be located in the intertank, the Tank's midsection, near the bipods, to measure any vibration caused by changes in the aerodynamic load, or stress. The other four accelerometers will be located in the cable tray of liquid oxygen protuberance air load ramps and will be used to determine whether there is need for the ramps in future tank modifications.

Why was not this work also wanted from the very first tank that has been redesigned and not just the second.

"The instrumentation on ET-121 will confirm what our computer models tell us happens during launch and ascent," said Sandy Coleman, manager of the External Tank Project, an element of the Space Shuttle Propulsion Office at NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville, Ala. "Though computer models are invaluable, the information gained from an actual launch will give us an even better picture."

Yes a good follow though to make sure the computer models are acurate.

SpaceNut · 2005-03-08 13:45:34

Possible delay in moving the shuttle due to cargo door seal and that several other technical issues requiring the replacement of an auxiliary power unit could contributed to the delay of the shuttle being moved.

Technical issues delay shuttle work, Discovery's move to VAB delayed; however, schedule includes padding

SpaceNut · 2005-03-09 08:29:35

Tools in use for the return to flight from University of Florida -developed detectors help guard against foam flaws in shuttle's fuel tank

The detectors, first invented as a new technology to find land mines, can identify tiny gaps, or air-filled voids, in the insulating foam without causing any damage.

Lots of details on how it works thou the returned xrays or backscatter and another instrument tetrahertz imaging by lockheed.

SpaceNut · 2005-03-10 13:11:31

Well the maiden voyage of the shuttle is looming closer by the day for the early to mid summers day launch. The question is what will this be just for the Discovery's shuttle run to the ISS. Will it be just another delivery of science equipment, experiments, supplies of consumables for restocking, demonstration of repair kit techniques and or more than just these.

Discovery’s Cargo: Next Shuttle Flight to Deliver Fresh Science and Supplies

The shuttle will be no run of the mill for it will be a greatly enhanced version of its former self. Sensor laidened ,external tank foam removed from the connection, extra heaters installed for de icing and more..

GCNRevenger · 2005-03-10 13:43:50

Shuttle will never be "Greatly Enhanced' without a crew escape system. Period.

John Creighton · 2005-03-10 15:47:20

I think being able to automatically inspect the tiles could greatly contribute to safety and reducing the cost of the shuttle.

GCNRevenger · 2005-03-10 16:20:36

What? The robot arm with the inspection tool isn't intended to replace the ground tile servicing between flights, it is purely a "is there a gaping hole on the bottom of the Shuttle or not" tool.

Any concieveable improvement to Shuttle will never make it live up to the vehicle is must be to make it worthwhile to fly.

Without a radical order of magnetude increase in crew safety, which cannot be achieved with the Shuttle arcitecture being what it is (no escape mechanism) or a massive ~75% reduction in launch costs (which likewise can never be achieved), then Shuttle is just not worth flying. Not then, not now, not ever.

SpaceNut · 2005-03-14 06:35:02

6 reasons why the shuttle's return to space is vital to human exploration of the moon and Mars

The six reason for the shuttle as listed in the article are
1. Keeping a corps of space experts.
2. We promised a research lab in space to 16 countries.
3. Safely flying the shuttle will restore confidence in NASA.
4. Part of shuttles could become future rocket.
5. Shuttle is still teaching NASA about spaceflight.
6. There are remaining discoveries to be made.

While it nice to keep expertise is it really necessary to keep all or only key personnel?

yes a promise is a promise and a treaty is more but contracts
and treaties can be changed , or ignored.

Maybe it will restore some confidence but is it worth the chance of another crew over the remaining life of use? At the rising cost of refurbishing each might it have not been cheaper to only fly each a few times and to make new ones instead?

SDV is one reason to continue with the shuttle and there are many more, including the ISS completion needs.

Teaching Nasa about spaceflight? IMO doubt this is true is the case.

Delaying the chance for a discovery by not flying the shuttle wieghs in about the same as letting Hubble come down before a replacement is in orbit.

SpaceNut · 2005-03-14 14:22:52

What will the next shuttle mission accomplish and what will it not only bring to the station but also bring back.

[url=http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7149630/] NASA packs suitcase for shuttle mission
Italian-built module will carry supplies to space station[/url]

Michael Bloxham · 2005-03-14 16:59:09

Those 6 reasons are complete BS, IM'H'O. Quite laughable, actually.

Rxke · 2005-03-15 01:24:51

Launch costs being that high, you'd expect they'd fill up Rafaello to the brim, not partial, no?

I don't get it... OK, it's a return to flight, so there'll be a lot of time spent to check the shuttle etc... but how long does unpacking stuff take, really...

SpaceNut · 2005-03-15 06:35:19

yup only 12 racks out of a possible 16 experiment racks. The other main item is a gyro. It appears that a lot of space walks are planed or at least 3 that I am aware of, while they are there. Not only to check out the shuttle but to install the gyro components.

I wonder if the gryo will be dumped overboard as junk to burn up in the atmosphere or if they will bring it home to have the failure analyzed such that they will use the knowledge gained to improve them for the future.

GCNRevenger · 2005-03-15 06:54:51

They won't be fully loading the cargo module because they've got other things to carry, like that gyro, and a heavy (probobly armored) external "deck box" with spare parts.

I would be wary about tossing a gyro out the airlock, if it would collide with the ISS later on, it would be more then heavy enough to destroy it. It wouldn't nessesarrily deorbit quickly, and if it did, it would be heavy enough so some of it might survive reentry (and hit us on the head).

SpaceNut · 2005-03-18 07:04:37

Time frame tightens for shuttle to-do list

Shuttle Discovery's move from its hangar has been delayed again because of technical issues, pushing back key dates that lead up to launch.
There still is enough padding in the schedule for NASA to launch on the first day of its planned window -- May 15

However, each delay eats more of the extra time. People already are working weekends to get Discovery ready.

Does this really seem right to add to the cost of shuttle flying again overtime costs? ???

SpaceNut · 2005-03-23 06:36:18

From this news article one would think that Nasa is ignoring the recommendation of the board.

Shuttle Plan Complete for Return to Flight -NASA

Investigators issued 15 recommendations they said were essential to perform before the shuttle fleet flew again. Kostelnik and other NASA officials at a telephone news conference said all 15 had been satisfied, with formal approval by a watchdog commission expected next week.
As of mid-February, six recommendations were still being addressed, including the requirement NASA have an ability to inspect and repair the shuttle's heat-shielding tiles while the ship is in orbit.
Other recommendations that were incomplete a month ago were: the ability to keep debris from the shuttle's external tank away from the ship on liftoff; a "hardened" shuttle better able to withstand damage; a launch schedule dictated by available resources, rather than management deadlines; an improved mission management team; and a detailed plan for organizational change at the shuttle program.

While on other fronts there are those that are in fear of the CEV not being launched from Florida.
The Space Authority; Space committee focuses on life after shuttle

Allen said the state's and the authority's focus needs to remain on business development so Florida can host the building of the next space vehicle, along with the launch pads for it. He said the finance corporation is the best way to do that, a view shared by the governor's office.

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#151 2005-02-11 13:32:19

Re: Return to flight slipping

#152 2005-02-11 13:34:00

Re: Return to flight slipping

#153 2005-02-11 14:43:37

Re: Return to flight slipping

#154 2005-02-11 15:56:44

Re: Return to flight slipping

#155 2005-02-25 09:56:18

Re: Return to flight slipping

#156 2005-02-25 17:43:06

Re: Return to flight slipping

#157 2005-02-28 06:02:36

Re: Return to flight slipping

#158 2005-03-01 05:44:10

Re: Return to flight slipping

#159 2005-03-03 08:14:29

Re: Return to flight slipping

#160 2005-03-04 10:19:51

Re: Return to flight slipping

#161 2005-03-04 20:05:28

Re: Return to flight slipping

#162 2005-03-08 13:45:34

Re: Return to flight slipping

#163 2005-03-09 08:29:35

Re: Return to flight slipping

#164 2005-03-10 13:11:31

Re: Return to flight slipping

#165 2005-03-10 13:43:50

Re: Return to flight slipping

#166 2005-03-10 15:47:20

Re: Return to flight slipping

#167 2005-03-10 16:20:36

Re: Return to flight slipping

#168 2005-03-14 06:35:02

Re: Return to flight slipping

#169 2005-03-14 14:22:52

Re: Return to flight slipping

#170 2005-03-14 16:59:09

Re: Return to flight slipping

#171 2005-03-15 01:24:51

Re: Return to flight slipping

#172 2005-03-15 06:35:19

Re: Return to flight slipping

#173 2005-03-15 06:54:51

Re: Return to flight slipping

#174 2005-03-18 07:04:37

Re: Return to flight slipping

#175 2005-03-23 06:36:18

Re: Return to flight slipping

Board footer