NASA shrinks - eight grand to go

LtlPhysics · 2005-03-07 17:26:29

http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewnews.h … ml?id=1006

I downloaded it but was denied access.

LtlPhysics · 2005-03-08 16:31:22

I found this published on a musicians' bb. I don't know who he/she is and would not identify him/her even if I did know. I have excised the first sentence.

The President's speech a year ago that set us on this vaguely defined drive to go to the Moon again, and to Mars after that, basically upset the entire funding structure within NASA. The Exploration Directorate was founded as the result of a massive internal reorganization. Suddenly if you wanted your research to survive, you had to compete for funding with the rest of NASA and the academic community - ALL of it; not just your specialty - and make it relevant to manned space flight. Most of us in the computer research field had been aiming more towards the robotic planetary missions prior to that.

Everyone in my division spent most of last year in a panic writing proposals for funding. The work we already had funding for was neglected while we tried to figure out what the new management wanted to hear.

At the same time, existing programs that were funding ongoing research got cut to shreds. Their funds essentially got shoveled into the Return To Flight drive (get shuttle and station back on their feet).

The upshot is we're sacrificing NASA's long-term future work to fund the completion of the ISS. Note that the article mentions 4 NASA research centers as having to cut staff - Ames (ARC), Dryden (DFRC), Glenn (GRC) and Langley (LARC). These are the places where basic research and advanced development are done. The manned flight centers (Kennedy, Johnson, Marshall) are not hurting anywhere near as badly. And JPL is looking good, what with the spectacular successes of the current Mars rovers and Cassini, and more Mars probes in the pipeline for launch later this year.

Management at the research centers has been dealt a bad hand. They have to cut the civil service workforce significantly to meet their new budgets. The response to the first buyout offer at Ames was underwhelming - something like an order of magnitude less than they were aiming for.

Meanwhile, on my contract, at last report something like 20% of us are going to lose our jobs, because the work we had been doing is no longer funded. No one is saying which 20% will have to go just yet. A few are being told now; the rest of us will find out down the road.

To us contractors, "layoff" means exactly the same as in the real world. The civil service workforce has its worries too, but they can't be let go on short notice like we can.

The Columbia disaster should have served as a wake-up call that NASA could no longer do business as usual, that the US would have to decide whether it was serious about space. From where I sit, I still don't see a sustained long-term commitment. I see an administration that is willing to fulfill its obligations to the other nations in the ISS project, and then let NASA wither away to pay for tax cuts.

And if it isn't already clear... this rant represents my personal opinions, and not my employer's, or NASA's either.

Yang Liwei Rocket · 2005-03-08 16:43:27

crazy happenings, sometimes I can't understand this American mentality

be careful what you wish for with this restructure and downsizing, what next

Will US outsource Congress and Whitehouse jobs to India and China ???
:down: they done bad before , just like this move, when they kicked out some of the older, experienced NASA workers who worked on fantastic past projects on Space
thumbs down to the USA for this NASA move
So there is much news from this idea on the dailypress, spaceref, nbc4i.com and others, a huge number of cut backs such as TRMM, Hubble and JIMO and then thousands of people 7,900 + getting sent home, the people at spaceref, spacedaily and spaceflightnow have talked on this before. They looked at the buyouts and internal transfers and examined the new movements of NASA and how they have been applied and then future results estimated. We will see a workforce lay-off of about 7,900 + job cuts, udget cuts and the United States losing aeronautics business to Europe, the European consortium is the preferred bidder for the deal to build aircraft to refuel military jets in mid-air and now the latest Airbus plane has left the US aircraft industry behind. The Bush proposed 2006 budget is said to be made through a combination of layoffs, buyouts, retirements one of the top USA Project managers Paul Senick is syaing that layoffs at the 10 federal space labs, including NASA Glenn, are premature. "The people on the chopping block live in our community," Patton said. "We do not want them on the unemployment line." This is a silly move by the USA, because the Chinese, Europe and India will be laughing at you and how you have shot yourself in the leg before any race or project has begun.

SpaceNut · 2005-03-09 10:32:21

It would seem that the bean counters have started saying that it is cheaper to get rid of the older worker and to hire younger ones in there place for less much later. This also frees up the cash that would have been used to pay there salaries, just more number games. The reality is doing space does cost to much and someone must feel that labor is the biggest portion of its cost.

SpaceNut · 2005-03-11 06:35:25

Some time ago while the commission was in session I had made the comment that Nasa needed to clean out the dead wood and the stream line its operation. I was sort of laughed at for how it would occur for those that were civil servants and contractors. Well we have seen the writing on the wall and it is shaping up just that way.

NASA juggles work force as it shifts focus to Mars Some employees will lose jobs, some will be reassigned

About one of every seven NASA workers nationwide will be transferred or paid to leave in the next 1 1/2 years as the space agency focuses on President Bush's moon-Mars exploration plan, officials said Thursday. However, many of those who depart likely will be replaced by new workers with skills more closely aligned with the new, deep space mission.
NASA employs about 18,900 government workers.

The Johnson Space Center's 3,076 civil service workers will be included in an agency buyout offer next month, officials said, but it was too early to say how the Houston center's employment numbers will change.
By late next year, NASA expects 2,680 government workers to leave through buyouts or seek re-assignment at facilities that have been most involved in human and robotic exploration.
A buyout offered this year at five NASA facilities, not including Johnson, was accepted by 325 workers.

Up to 2,700 jobs at NASA in doubt Agency is reorganizing to focus on exploration, management official says

Palomar · 2005-03-11 06:55:39

crazy happenings, sometimes I can't understand this American mentality
be careful what you wish for with this restructure and downsizing, what next
Will US outsource Congress and White House jobs to India and China ???
:down: they done bad before , just like this move, when they kicked out some of the older, experienced NASA workers who worked on fantastic past projects on Space
thumbs down to the USA for this NASA move
So there is much news from this idea on the dailypress, spaceref, nbc4i.com and others, a huge number of cut backs such as TRMM, Hubble and JIMO and then thousands of people 7,900 + getting sent home, the people at spaceref, spacedaily and spaceflightnow have talked on this before. They looked at the buyouts and internal transfers and examined the new movements of NASA and how they have been applied and then future results estimated. We will see a workforce lay-off of about 7,900 + job cuts, udget cuts and the United States losing aeronautics business to Europe, the European consortium is the preferred bidder for the deal to build aircraft to refuel military jets in mid-air and now the latest Airbus plane has left the US aircraft industry behind. The Bush proposed 2006 budget is said to be made through a combination of layoffs, buyouts, retirements one of the top USA Project managers Paul Senick is syaing that layoffs at the 10 federal space labs, including NASA Glenn, are premature. "The people on the chopping block live in our community," Patton said. "We do not want them on the unemployment line." This is a silly move by the USA, because the Chinese, Europe and India will be laughing at you and how you have shot yourself in the leg before any race or project has begun.

*Agree with you 100%, YL Rocket. I'm an American and I don't understand this mentality either.

Will Congress and the White House outsource jobs to India and China: I hope not. Actually I doubt they could (?).

Yep, looks like lots of "shoot yourself in the foot" going on in America these days.

Science is expendable before The Almighty Buck. :down:

--Cindy

LtlPhysics · 2005-03-11 15:00:56

Pink slips everywhere.

There was a recent Spacerep article (I think) that listed at least some of NASA's many programs and how much was going to be cut and others that would see an increase in funding. Perhaps someone has saved that piece of mail.

And I'm trying to establish an accurate list of NASA's activities. There is another forum unrelated to this one, that has members complaining that NASA should do space right or not do it at all. It's a common perception among the general population.

That roster from Spacerep would be nice to post over there. It would surprise a lot of them.

NASA's agenda list, very spare

Maintaining the Shuttle infrastructure

Maintaining the ISS infrastructure

Monitoring Mars rovers and orbiters

Monitoring Cassini

Monitoring a Mercury probe

Monitoring Stardust

Monitoring Deep Impact

Monitoring Hubble

Project Constellation

A few cheaper faster designs

Icy Moons mission, cut

Those are just the very visible activites of NASA. NASA has a lot of irons in the fire that don't geet any publicity .

If you could add what you know, and I know you know a great deal more than me, it would be greatly appreciated.

Another thing - My sisters are well educated and smart. One of them stopped by recently and the conversation took an unexpected turn to Bush and the Hubble. Her reaction was visceral. She didn't know that Bush had done the right thing (for all of the wrong reasons). This is common out there, a lot of very bright people don't know what's going on.

And take a look at this place, newmars. There's only a handful of people who take the time to read it, let alone join it.

GCNRevenger · 2005-03-11 15:54:43

*Agree with you 100%, YL Rocket. I'm an American and I don't understand this mentality either.
Will Congress and the Whitehouse outsource jobs to India and China: I hope not. Actually I doubt they could (?).
Yep, looks like lots of "shoot yourself in the foot" going on in America these days.
Science is expendable before The Almighty Buck. :down:
--Cindy

What? You and Rocket are so out there on a "Hate Bush" binge today that you aren't thinking straight or something...

The reality is really pretty simple...

1) About 1/3rd of NASA's money goes to basic research projects of every kind under the Sun, and have little to do with exploration. What is really NASA's job? Is NASA's job to prop up basic research that isn't related to aerospace? Should NASA pay for research that private companies should be paying for? ...NASA's cheif purpose is exploration now, and not to develop advanced prosthetics or new road stripe paint, but to learn more about the universe, explore, and expand humanity.

We have other agencies that are supposed to fund basic research, like the DoE and NSF. Nor should NASA pay for research that companies should be paying for, like building bigger and bigger jet engines for airliners. US companies have been getting shovel fulls of "free money" for decades this way, and they should carry their own weight.

These research centers that are being cut are being cut because they simply don't have much to contribute to exploration, and so there is no reason to go on funding them. The vast majority of the costs for these facilities are the engineers unfortunatly, so if NASA is to get serious about exploration, they will nessesarrily have to go. This isn't some stupid talk about "getting rid of expensive old people for new people," no! This is about an expensive organ of the agency that is a useless hinderence. This is the kind of thinking that makes Shuttle so expensive, about 3/4ths of its cost is the sallery of the Shuttle Army. People simply cannot be a sacred cow and NASA succeed.

2) The idea that lack of basic research is what is hurting the US aerospace industry is likewise nonsense. Basic aircraft technology hasn't changed in a decade, and it won't radically change until supersonic airliners are built. There is nothing at all special about the Airbus super-mega-jumbo, nothing advanced about it, it is simply bigger.

The European consortium building those military refueling planes have an edge because they are being helped out by the French and other European governments unfairly and anti-competitively in order to undercut US firms. The case is current in court.

3) NASA has enough money...But: NASA does have enough money to pull of VSE. It doesn't need any huge infusion of extra cash, modern rocket technology is cheaper then it was back in the Apollo days for what you get.

"From where I sit, I still don't see a sustained long-term commitment..." And what would make you change your mind? If Congress threw buckets of money NASA's way? Nonsense. NASA has enough money to execute VSE in a reasonable amount of time.

4) Now for that but: NASA has enough money to afford VSE, but only if it spends its money carefully. That means getting rid of research that isn't related to NASA's job, and not spending money on stupid things like fixing Hubble.

NASA is obligated to finish the ISS, and the only way to do this in a resonable time frame is to use Shuttle to it. That is an unfortunate reality of the situation... but after that, then all the money that Shuttle and ISS cost will then be freed up.

All Seven Billion Dollars of it

It is difficult to describe just how rediculous the costs for Shuttle and ISS are, and all that money would be enough to pay for a big chunk of VSE.

NASA has enough money, its just going into Shuttle/ISS and into doing things that aren't its job. It is unfortunate that lots of people will very likly lose their jobs since they are unessesarry, but there isn't much to be done about that... Either they go, or we stay right here on the ground. There isn't going to be a massive budget increase, bcause NASA doesn't need one, they just have to spend what they have wisely.

Palomar · 2005-03-11 16:02:34

*Agree with you 100%, YL Rocket. I'm an American and I don't understand this mentality either.
Will Congress and the White House outsource jobs to India and China: I hope not. Actually I doubt they could (?).
Yep, looks like lots of "shoot yourself in the foot" going on in America these days.
Science is expendable before The Almighty Buck. :down:
--Cindy
What? You and Rocket are so out there on a "Hate Bush" binge today that you aren't thinking straight or something...

*No, no, no, NO.

When I said "The White House" (I was so distraught I actually spelled it altogether like one word, criminy...) I was just thinking of it as synonymous with anyone who deserves criticism for making all these cuts.

I can see how you mistook that, though.

Honestly, I wasn't directing my comments at Pres. Bush; I didn't even have him in mind (ironic, I know...).

And that's all I have to say about it, at this point (am feeling ill today; amazing I can even string 2 sentences together right now).

--Cindy

SpaceNut · 2005-03-15 10:25:57

Here is a document (Appropriation Summary: Exploration Capabilities) that pretty much spells out how much of the pie goes where.

Millions of Dollars FY 2004 9/28/04 Operating Plan
SPACE OPERATIONS 5,890.1
International Space Station 1,363.7
Space Shuttle 4,060.9
Space and Flight Support 465.5
TOTAL APPROPRIATION 5,890.1

Millions of Dollars FY 2005 12/23/05 Operating Plan
SPACE OPERATIONS 6,830.4
International Space Station 1,676.3
Space Shuttle 4,669.0
Space and Flight Support 485.1
TOTAL APPROPRIATION 6,830.4

Millions of Dollars FY 2006 Budget Request
SPACE OPERATIONS 6,763.0
International Space Station 1,856.7
Space Shuttle 4,530.6
Space and Flight Support 375.6
TOTAL APPROPRIATION 6,763.0

LtlPhysics · 2005-03-15 21:08:35

SpaceNut, thanks.

Looking at the FY2006 request, Space Operations gets $6.763 billion. NASA gets about $16.5 billion, leaving $9.737 billion for other ventures. Do you have any idea of where that goes?

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#1 2005-03-07 17:26:29

Re: NASA shrinks - eight grand to go

#2 2005-03-08 16:31:22

Re: NASA shrinks - eight grand to go

#3 2005-03-08 16:43:27

Re: NASA shrinks - eight grand to go

#4 2005-03-09 10:32:21

Re: NASA shrinks - eight grand to go

#5 2005-03-11 06:35:25

Re: NASA shrinks - eight grand to go

#6 2005-03-11 06:55:39

Re: NASA shrinks - eight grand to go

#7 2005-03-11 15:00:56

Re: NASA shrinks - eight grand to go

#8 2005-03-11 15:54:43

Re: NASA shrinks - eight grand to go

#9 2005-03-11 16:02:34

Re: NASA shrinks - eight grand to go

#10 2005-03-15 10:25:57

Re: NASA shrinks - eight grand to go

#11 2005-03-15 21:08:35

Re: NASA shrinks - eight grand to go

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