Political Potpourri III - The next round.

BWhite · 2005-03-08 11:11:05

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,12 … .html]This report strikes my intuition as probably accurate.

Why did it happen? IMHO? Overstretched and over stressed troops facing too many daily attacks.

The US troops ordered the injured Ms Sgrena and the driver, another secret service agent, to kneel on the road. Then, Mr Fini told parliament, "two young American soldiers came up close, looking upset, and apologised repeatedly".
"It is ruled out that there was an attempt on Giuliana Sgrena's life," Mr Fini said. "The hypothesis of an assassination is unfounded – we are dealing with an accident that needs to be clarified."

Edited By BWhite on 1110301909

BWhite · 2005-03-08 16:51:30

Bush announces Iraq exit strategy. We will http://www.theonion.com/news/index.php?issue=4110]go through Iran!

Courtesy of The Onion.

Palomar · 2005-03-08 17:07:44

*Hey Bill, do you think the war is going badly? Honestly...I can't tell.

--Cindy

P.S.: As for the garbled Joplin lyrics:

"Oh Lord won't ya' buy me a Mercedes RLV, our rivals fly Soyuz; we're filled with envy" with apologies to Janis Joplin.

Really, how can you live in a nation which you apparently consider so vastly inferior to all others in every way?

(Soyuz still has nothing on Saturn V)

P.P.S.: As for Bush, he's President until January 2009. Better get used to/over it, I guess. Hmmmmm?

BWhite · 2005-03-08 17:43:50

Really, how can you live in a nation which you apparently consider so vastly inferior to all others in every way?

Hmmm. . .

I have always believed that the need to thump one's own chest and ceaselessly proclaim superiority in all things was a sign of a deep seated lack of self-esteem.

America has been greatly blessed. Therefore, it owes the world much in return. From those to whom much is given, much is expected.

Palomar · 2005-03-08 17:52:29

*Yeah, I actually had "thump" in mind. You know, of the "thump the needle on the stuck vinyl LP to get it UNstuck" variety. :laugh:

And by the way, who here fits your description:

I have always believed that the need to thump one's own chest and ceaselessly proclaim superiority in all things was a sign of a deep seated lack of self-esteem.

? No one here, as best I can tell.

Bragging of that nature -is- unbecoming. So is ceaseless self-disparagement, IMO.

--Cindy

BWhite · 2005-03-08 18:06:17

So is ceaseless self-disparagement, IMO.

When I have I ever disparaged myself? I merely predict bad consequences will flow from foolish decisions made by my fellow countrymen.

And there have been a great many of those, recently.

Edited By BWhite on 1110326807

Palomar · 2005-03-08 20:16:50

So is ceaseless self-disparagement, IMO.
When I have I ever disparaged myself?

*You know what I meant, Bill. :;): By "ceaseless self-disparagement" I meant your constantly disparaging our nation ("self-" synonymous in this context with the U.S.A.)

We're certainly -not- above criticism and YES there's plenty of criticism we need to and should hear and pay heed to.

But there are still good and worthy things about our nation as well.

It just seems that lately there's too much U.S.-bashing by Americans. It's getting sad, really.

--Cindy

Cobra Commander · 2005-03-09 06:16:46

America has been greatly blessed. Therefore, it owes the world much in return. From those to whom much is given, much is expected.

Owes?

I'm all for being a good neighbor and helping those in need, but we don't "owe" the world jack. America hasn't been blessed, it's been successful. The former is bestowed upon one from outside, the latter stems largely from oneself.

Yep, we're that good. <thump thump>

I merely predict bad consequences will flow from foolish decisions made by my fellow countrymen.
And there have been a great many of those, recently.

And some good consequences as well. To claim all is well at this stage is folly, but to blind oneself to all but the setbacks is just is foolish.

It just seems that lately there's too much U.S.-bashing by Americans. It's getting sad, really.

Haven't you heard, hating your own country is the new patriotism.

Palomar · 2005-03-09 06:55:19

America has been greatly blessed. Therefore, it owes the world much in return. From those to whom much is given, much is expected.
Owes?

*Actually that's almost word-for-word to what Jesus Christ said in the Gospels: "To whom much is given, much shall be required."

Bill, are you opposed to theocracy? Or just the conservative Right's (Moral Majority/Christian Coalition) definition of it?

A person can be loving, charitable, good-hearted, fair, etc., and not be religious.

Haven't you heard, hating your own country is the new patriotism.

Well, I look at it this way: I love my husband. Though I can see his faults and shortcomings (and he mine too!), I still love him -- even if he's being aggravating (I'm sure the reverse is true too). But I'm not going to criticize him repeatedly over and over to other people -- and especially not to people who might dislike him in the first place.

And again: I'm willing to admit (even if just privately to myself) to America's faults, mistakes, errors, wrongs. And I sure as heck expect others to do likewise regarding their own nation.

--Cindy

BWhite · 2005-03-09 08:05:23

There is much to love about America and therefore it pains me when our most sacred words are whored by the hypocritical Right to advance their own agenda, an agenda I view as essentially anti-American, even if wrapped in a flag. Same with the evangelical types using the words and images of Jesus to advance their own power worship and wealth worship agendas.

Globally, we are 5% of the human population and we come from a tradition of one person = one vote. Uh oh. We gotta problem right there.

We use a disproportionate share of global resources and in the future we can continue to do so only through military might. Other then by force of arms, can we sustain consuming more wealth than India and China which together are almost ten times our size in population? But he who lives by the sword. . .

Productivity? Last year Ford and GM made two thirds of their profits from the Ford Motor Credit and GMAC division - - selling insurance and auto loans rather than cars. Are American bankers and insurance agents inherently better at banking and insurance than Indians?

The era nation-state is ending. Why? Citibank and Chase will make more money if banking and finance law are uniform throughout the world. Uniform banking and finance laws will level the barriers that exist between nations-states as will a global currency. It may take a century or more but it will happen.

If we spread truly American values around the world, which includes one person = one vote, we will not be supported in our position of supremacy. We will be outvoted. If we encourage the global spread of one person = one vote we will lose our position of supremacy yet perhaps create a world we can all live in together peacefully.

If we discourage the spread of one person = one vote and continue to assert a soveriegn veto over international affairs - - such as the right of pre-emptive war possessed only by the US - - then

(a) the remaining 95% of the world's population will pull us down, perhaps violently or

(b) we shall become as tyrants and betray that which made us great to begin with.

BWhite · 2005-03-09 08:11:53

Here is a time bomb waiting to explode.

Increasingly, credit card data processing is being moved to India. Suppose we (America) got into a nasty geopolitical fight with India and to "pay us back" the Indians give our credit card data to mafia types who simultaneously launch 20 million identity theft attacks.

Twenty million Americans suddenly find thousands of dollars billed to their credit cards for Chinese run porn web sites and ALL the records are in India, and have been scrambled.

Cobra Commander · 2005-03-09 08:28:50

There is much to love about America and therefore it pains me when our most sacred words are whored by the hypocritical Right to advance their own agenda, an agenda I view as essentially anti-American, even if wrapped in a flag.

Let's be honest here, there's plenty of hypocrisy, whoring and flag-wrapping on both sides of the political divide. It's not a Right or Left thing.

This is a No Spin Zone

Globally, we are 5% of the human population and we come from a tradition of one person = one vote. Uh oh. We gotta problem right there.

Do we though? Sure, we all like to think so but even the illusion is a recent development. Perhaps the biggest danger in this "spreading democracy" thing we've got going is that the United States of America was never intended to be a democracy itself in the proper sense of the word. We've gotten a little too caught up in the little lies we've told ourselves over the years. Equality, "right" to vote and all that nonsense.

We use a disproportionate share of global resources and in the future we can continue to do so only through military might. Other then by force of arms, can we sustain consuming more wealth than India and China which together are almost ten times our size in population? Other then by force of arms, can we sustain consuming more wealth than India and China which together are almost ten times our size in population? But he who lives by the sword. . .

Yes, if we structure our activities properly. Nuclear power, hybrid/hydrogen/ethanol vehicles. We actually have plenty of oil, metals, food, everything we need right here, it's just a matter of utilization and planning. We could be totally self-sufficient within 10-15 years if we so choose. Keep a hand in the MidEast oil situation just to have some influence but let the ChiComs have that headache for awhile. We have what we need, anything else we can lock up is a bargaining chip against the other guys.

Point being, we don't need to step aside for anyone and we don't owe anyone anything. Peaceful coexistence does not entail kneeling.

Or put another way, the rise of China need not mean the fall of America. The fortunes of another are as much an opportunity for us as a threat.

That said, sometimes you still need swords. Keep it sharp and practice regularly.

Palomar · 2005-03-09 08:29:33

*Bill, have you by chance read anything in http://www.newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1053]this thread?

--Cindy

P.S.: Cobra wrote:

Let's be honest here, there's plenty of hypocrisy, whoring and flag-wrapping on both sides of the political divide. It's not a Right or Left thing.

Yep.

BWhite · 2005-03-09 08:58:01

We use a disproportionate share of global resources and in the future we can continue to do so only through military might. Other then by force of arms, can we sustain consuming more wealth than India and China which together are almost ten times our size in population? Other then by force of arms, can we sustain consuming more wealth than India and China which together are almost ten times our size in population? But he who lives by the sword. . .
Yes, if we structure our activities properly. Nuclear power, hybrid/hydrogen/ethanol vehicles. We actually have plenty of oil, metals, food, everything we need right here, it's just a matter of utilization and planning. We could be totally self-sufficient within 10-15 years if we so choose. Keep a hand in the MidEast oil situation just to have some influence but let the ChiComs have that headache for awhile. We have what we need, anything else we can lock up is a bargaining chip against the other guys.
Point being, we don't need to step aside for anyone and we don't owe anyone anything. Peaceful coexistence does not entail kneeling.
Or put another way, the rise of China need not mean the fall of America. The fortunes of another are as much an opportunity for us as a threat.
That said, sometimes you still need swords. Keep it sharp and practice regularly.

Cobra, I agree wih you on ALL the above points.

Why you cannot see that our current foreign policy is drunk on the Kool-Aid of Wilsonian demi-god-ery (Bush believes himself a demi-god and is a demogouge) eludes me.

We must move beyond the oil economy and let the Chinese worry about those wacky Arab nut-jobs. Move to hydrogen and in a few decades hammer the Chinese over carbon dioxide emissions.

Swords? Yep, we need swords. Better not to use them, however. Again, we have the world's finest military, perhaps the best hammer ever invented by mankind. And GWB is determined to pound every screw he sees. :;):

= = =

Hypocrisy is bipartisan. I agree. Therefore, balance of power in government is to be desired.

Give the Democrats one branch of government and my need to whine falls substantially. As it is GOP hypocrisy is running loose, unchecked.

BWhite · 2005-03-09 09:04:28

Actually, much of my objection to our current foreign policy is my belief that our current strategies will seriously diminish our ability to influence future events.

In other words, Bush is popping the bubble of American supremacy far faster than George Soros dared hope and therefore our ability to Ameri-form global culture before our supremacy evaporates is thereby lessened.

How is this happening? By using hammers on screws and saying we have no need of screwdrivers.

BWhite · 2005-03-09 09:15:49

Globally, we are 5% of the human population and we come from a tradition of one person = one vote. Uh oh. We gotta problem right there.
Do we though? Sure, we all like to think so but even the illusion is a recent development. Perhaps the biggest danger in this "spreading democracy" thing we've got going is that the United States of America was never intended to be a democracy itself in the proper sense of the word. We've gotten a little too caught up in the little lies we've told ourselves over the years. Equality, "right" to vote and all that nonsense.

Here maybe is where we disagree. Perhaps I actually believed the stuff they taught us in junior high civics class about the meaning of America :;):

When John Ashcroift says our rights flow solely from the Constitution of 1787 and therefore do not apply to other people in the rest of the world he blaphemes Thomas Jefferson and the opening lines of the Declaration of Independence which teaches that governments exist to protect pre-existing rights granted to all people simply by virtue of being human.

He worships a lesser deity (the Constitution) and neglects a higher deity (the Declaration of Independence) which asserts the existence of rights which apply to all humans, everywhere.

Cobra Commander · 2005-03-09 09:31:21

Cobra, I agree wih you on ALL the above points.
Why you cannot see that our current foreign policy is drunk on the Kool-Aid of Wilsonian demi-god-ery (Bush believes himself a demi-god and is a demogouge) eludes me.

Because I'm looking at the entire picture. The options are limited, I can't choose "Cobra's plan for prosperity and sneaky dominance". All that's on the table is "Republican's for bombing the shit out of bad guys and tax cuts" and "Democrats for appeasement of bad guys and socialism"

In the final analysis and in relation to my objectives the political fallout over the present foreign policy will be less damaging than the alternative.

With the present course some bad things happen, some good things happen, whether it's good or bad on the whole depends on numerous unforeseeable events and decisions by people I don't know and can't predict. But lately it's looking more good than bad. Whatever the case, we're already walking the path and can't simply turn around now.

In other words, Bush is popping the bubble of American supremacy far faster than George Soros dared hope and therefore our ability to Ameri-form global culture before our supremacy evaporates is thereby lessened.

Unless it works. The people who constantly harp on the folly of the current policy, pointing to every setback and ignoring every success, are many of the same people (personally or ideologically) who believed that Reagan was wrong about the Soviets. Now they are gone, it worked. Their record isn't too good.

I'm the first to admit that mistakes have been made in this war and I've been quite critical of the Administration at times, but here's some advice for the opposition. The Left in this country has positioned themselves so that any success for America is bad for them and any failure for America is good for them. They only win when America loses. At worst it's treason, at best it's just abysmally poor strategy. I lean toward the latter, but still... If you want to win support, stop it.

Hypocrisy is bipartisan. I agree. Therefore, balance of power in government is to be desired.
Give the Democrats one branch of government and my need to whine falls substantially. As it is GOP hypocrisy is running loose, unchecked.

So two wrongs really do make a right! :laugh:
Or a Left as the case may be. :;):

Edited By Cobra Commander on 1110382366

BWhite · 2005-03-09 09:39:58

Actually, Bush may end up doing more good in ways he never intended. He may serve as that hypothetical alien invasion fleet getting the rest of the world to unify and work for the common good. :;):

= = =

Or maybe Bush does consciously intend to play act the wild 12 year old waving a loaded 45 caliber in order to scare the world straight. You know, that might actually work for the common good of humanity even if the US ends up with far less global influence, far sooner, because the rest of the world is scared shitless and stops all their petty quarrels.

Okay, I feel better, now.

Thanks!

Edited By BWhite on 1110383518

Cobra Commander · 2005-03-09 10:03:01

Okay, I feel better, now.
Thanks!

Pay at the desk on your way out.

Actually, Bush may end up doing more good in ways he never intended. He may serve as that hypothetical alien invasion fleet getting the rest of the world to unify and work for the common good.

Common good eh? When, in all the history of humanity, has a threat caused the world to unify for the "common good"? The alliance against the Soviets wasn't really about "unity" or "good", so that doesn't cut it. Even against Hitler only half the world unified out of their own self interest.

And contrary to MoveOn.org ads, George Bush is no Adolf Hitler.
:;):

BWhite · 2005-03-09 10:21:38

Global unification will rally around the idea that law must be the same for all people, regardless of nationality.

Even the Italian foreign minister (a vocal pro-US voice) is talking about the need to avoid subservience.

dicktice · 2005-03-09 14:16:10

Hey! When I equated Osama to Dr No (as the great unifier of the world's disperate nations against a common threat) I never imagined Dubya. Where does that leave Osama, then, since we only need ONE common threat?

Palomar · 2005-03-09 14:29:04

Hey! When I equated Osama to Dr No (as the great unifier of the world's disperate nations against a common threat) I never imagined Dubya. Where does that leave Osama, then, since we only need ONE common threat?

*That reminds me of a big black and white photo I saw on the front of a tabloid last year, while standing in a checkout line:

Osama in a bridal gown and veil, sitting on Saddam's lap. The grinning newlyweds. :laugh:

--Cindy

Palomar · 2005-03-09 16:53:58

*This song by Donovan comes to mind a lot, when discussing or thinking about politics (final chorus clipped; is repetitive -- and the "number 12 bus" really has nothing to do with the majority of the song); and as a friend just now reminded me of it in a private e-mail, what the heck:

Riki Tiki Tavi
==============
Better get into what you gotta get into
Better get into it now, no slacking please
United Nations ain't really united
And the organisations ain't really organised
Riki tiki tavi mongoose is gone
Riki tiki tavi mongoose is gone
Won't be coming around for to kill your snakes no more my love
Riki tiki tavi mongoose is gone
(Every)body who read the Jungle Book knows that Riki tiki tavi's a
mongoose who kills snakes
(Well) when I was a young man I was led to believe there were organisations
to kill my snakes for me
(ie the) church ie the government ie the school
(but when I got a little older) I learned I had to kill them myself
(I said) Riki tiki tavi mongoose is gone
Riki tiki tavi mongoose is gone
Won't be coming around for to kill your snakes no more my love
Riki tiki tavi mongoose is gone
People walk around they don't know what they're doing
They bin lost so long they don't know what they've been looking for
Well, I know what I'm a looking for but I just can't find it
I guess I gotta look inside of myself some more

Palomar · 2005-03-11 12:11:13

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s … c_1]Muslim clerics issue fatwa against bin Laden

*It's about time. It's their religion and their image being tarnished by bin Laden. They should make it strong and clear that Islam is against killing innocent civilians.

--Cindy

Shaun Barrett · 2005-03-14 04:30:56

Well well. "It's about time" all right!!
We need a lot more of the same from Muslim organizations worldwide. But this is a start, at least, although a belated and isolated one.

I think this bit sums it up:-

The commission said the Koran barred Muslims from committing crimes against innocent people.

Where does that leave the murdering scum in Iraq? ??? :down:

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#101 2005-03-08 11:11:05

Re: Political Potpourri III - The next round.

#102 2005-03-08 16:51:30

Re: Political Potpourri III - The next round.

#103 2005-03-08 17:07:44

Re: Political Potpourri III - The next round.

#104 2005-03-08 17:43:50

Re: Political Potpourri III - The next round.

#105 2005-03-08 17:52:29

Re: Political Potpourri III - The next round.

#106 2005-03-08 18:06:17

Re: Political Potpourri III - The next round.

#107 2005-03-08 20:16:50

Re: Political Potpourri III - The next round.

#108 2005-03-09 06:16:46

Re: Political Potpourri III - The next round.

#109 2005-03-09 06:55:19

Re: Political Potpourri III - The next round.

#110 2005-03-09 08:05:23

Re: Political Potpourri III - The next round.

#111 2005-03-09 08:11:53

Re: Political Potpourri III - The next round.

#112 2005-03-09 08:28:50

Re: Political Potpourri III - The next round.

#113 2005-03-09 08:29:33

Re: Political Potpourri III - The next round.

#114 2005-03-09 08:58:01

Re: Political Potpourri III - The next round.

#115 2005-03-09 09:04:28

Re: Political Potpourri III - The next round.

#116 2005-03-09 09:15:49

Re: Political Potpourri III - The next round.

#117 2005-03-09 09:31:21

Re: Political Potpourri III - The next round.

#118 2005-03-09 09:39:58

Re: Political Potpourri III - The next round.

#119 2005-03-09 10:03:01

Re: Political Potpourri III - The next round.

#120 2005-03-09 10:21:38

Re: Political Potpourri III - The next round.

#121 2005-03-09 14:16:10

Re: Political Potpourri III - The next round.

#122 2005-03-09 14:29:04

Re: Political Potpourri III - The next round.

#123 2005-03-09 16:53:58

Re: Political Potpourri III - The next round.

#124 2005-03-11 12:11:13

Re: Political Potpourri III - The next round.

#125 2005-03-14 04:30:56

Re: Political Potpourri III - The next round.

Board footer