Name That American War! - Give me a year, I'll give you a war.

Ian Flint · 2005-03-07 00:57:10

I just found a book that lists all the conflicts or near conflicts that the U.S.A. has been involved in. Most everything I've read so far shows America to be the aggressor.

If you have a favorite year anytime from 1776 to the present, just name it. I'll quote what the book says about that date. If you can give me the year and the war you win a gold star! If you can give me a year when the U.S. has not seriously threatened another people (aka military build up, naval deployment, etc.) or has not been at war you win two gold stars.

Here's a quote from the book:
"We go to war but grudgingly and then only when compelled by the requirements of restoring the peace, justice, and good order, for we among all the peoples of the world comprise the most peace-loving of nations." -- Woodrow Wilson, 1917
One of the paramount difficulties in achieving constructive change in the U.S. is, and has always been, the country's patently false image of itself.

Don't worry, after we have a little fun I'll let you know the name of the book in question. Let the games begin!

Cobra Commander · 2005-03-07 06:31:31

It wouldn't be Axelrod's "America's Wars" would it?

Palomar · 2005-03-07 08:00:26

I just found a book that lists all the conflicts or near conflicts that the U.S.A. has been involved in. Most everything I've read so far shows America to be the aggressor.
If you have a favorite year anytime from 1776 to the present, just name it. I'll quote what the book says about that date. If you can give me the year and the war you win a gold star!

*How about the War of 1812? Wasn't that an attack on us by the Brits (their fault entirely) because they were sore they'd lost their former Colonies?

--Cindy

P.S.: And I'd sure like someone to explain to me how America was the aggressor which started World Wars I and II (especially II). I'm not overly familiar with WWI (except that the Germans apparently started it -- that admission from a German national I knew a few years ago, who subsequently married and moved here), but WWII was started by the Germans, Italians and Japanese. If anyone can prove otherwise (our fault instead), I sure want to read point-by-point proof.

Grypd · 2005-03-07 08:20:53

*How about the War of 1812? Wasn't that an attack on us by the Brits (their fault entirely) because they were sore they'd lost their former Colonies?
--Cindy

Actually it was an attempt to get the British Canadian colonies to become part of a greater USA. This happened while GB was dealing with Napolean

Cobra Commander · 2005-03-07 08:43:25

I'm sure Ian is referring to the long list of minor conflicts that most people have never heard of. For example, a small force of US troops invaded Korea in the 1870s. Also I suspect that every campaign against various American Indian tribes is included, which even in those cases the charge of "American aggression" has to be looked at on a cas-by-case basis and isn't as widespread as is popular to believe in some quarters. By no means is it universal.

The US also had troops in Russia fighting the Bolsheviks, come to think of it. We've always used military force to further our own interests. Whether it's "aggression" is highly debateable, but widespread use of force hardly marks America as unique. I'm aware of the record and I for one stand by and defend it in the majority of cases.

As for the World Wars. The start of WWI would almost be funny if wasn't such a tragic waste, but essentially an Austro-Hungarian Duke was assassinated (by an assassin who had given up until the Duke's driver took a wrong turn, crossing the assassin's path) and Serbia was blamed. War ensued. Germany was allied with Austria, Russia with Serbia, France with Russia, England with France on and on.

All because Archduke Ferdinand's driver couldn't read a friggin' map.

WWII is also more complex than is generally understood. For example before Germany invaded Poland there was debate in the British Parliament about going to war with Russia over their invasion of Finland. Russia also invaded Poland at the same time as Germany. Personalities as much as politics determined the lineup for that one.

Actually it was an attempt to get the British Canadian colonies to become part of a greater USA. This happened while GB was dealing with Napolean

:laugh:

Actually my (sortof) hometown of Detroit was held by the British in the War of 1812, the only American city to have ever been occupied by a foreign power since the Revolution.

Grypd · 2005-03-07 09:03:58

Actually my (sortof) hometown of Detroit was held by the British in the War of 1812, the only American city to have ever been occupied by a foreign power since the Revolution.

Better not mention Washington then.

Still a very interesting and often forgotten piece of history is the War of 1812. It did nearly break up the Union with New England almost declaring independence from the USA and did bankrupt the USA, destroying the power of the landlords who had an agrarian based economy. It gave you the National Anthem, err a lot of free land (after the burning of the original city) in which to build washingtons monuements. And decided how the USA and Canada where to look.

I only paid attention to this war when I was in fort George a local Historic monuement and still working barracks (actually a massive 18th century fortification and impressive today still) which has artifacts taken by the Highlanders in the regiments that burned Washington. It really does not merit too much attention over here as its pivotal battles happened in the same year as Napolean was defeated the first time. (actually the 1812 war finished in 1815 the year Napolean was trully and utterly defeated.

Cobra Commander · 2005-03-07 09:13:21

Better not mention Washington then.

Strictly speaking, Washington wasn't occupied.

Though my previous assertion depends largely on how one defines "occupied" and "city". Several towns were briefly taken to camp as troops advanced on Washington.

Commodore · 2005-03-07 09:55:01

Better not mention Washington then.

Sacked is a better term.

Funny story actually. The force that sacked Washington was almost completely destroyed by a freak storm that featured a tornado that seemingly spang up from the rubble of the Capital building.

Palomar · 2005-03-07 09:59:24

Also I suspect that every campaign against various American Indian tribes is included

*It's not just the U.S.A. which deserves blame in this regard.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/genoc … m]Genocide of Natives in North America

(Natives in South America have fared little better)

The population of North America prior to the first sustained European contact in 1492 CE is a matter of active debate. Various estimates of the pre-contact Native population of the continental U.S. and Canada range from 1.8 to over 12 million. 4 Over the next four centuries, their numbers were reduced to about 237,000 as Natives were almost wiped out. Author Carmen Bernand estimates that the Native population of what is now Mexico was reduced from 30 million to only 3 million over four decades. 13 Peter Montague estimates that Europeans once ruled over 100 million Natives throughout the Americas.

Oppression continued into the 20th century, through actions by governments and religious organizations which systematically destroyed Native culture and religious heritage. One present-day byproduct of this oppression is suicide. Today, *Canadian* Natives have the highest suicide rate of any identifiable population group in the world.

I don't mean to go off-topic, but I do know of one frequenter to New Mars who has -- in the past -- tried to portray our neighbors to the north as all goodness and light and better-than-Yankees, "kumbaya" sweetness. Looks like the Natives in Canada have a different story (empirialist subjugation is empirialist subjugation no matter what).

There's plenty of blame to go around.

--Cindy

clark · 2005-03-07 10:28:37

1976. Good year.

Of course the Korean war never officaly ended, so you can't really win this game (at least in modern history). I'll take 3 stars for pointing that one out.

Ian Flint · 2005-03-07 14:31:33

Man, our schedules sure are different. I got up at 6:00 am, alone on the message board except for the nameless guests. I come back from a class, and I see that all hell has broken loose.
Clark, played the game right. (What a pansy!) :;):
Good try, Cobra, but we're not playing "guess the name of the book". By the way, wrong book.
Cindy...1812...come on you can do better than that. Oh well, two gold stars, but I really expected more out of you.

Let's see...

1812 -- "General George Mathews, acting on orders from president Madison, siezes Amelia Island and adjacent parts of eastern Florida. Although the troops are quickly withdrawn under pressure from Britain and other powers, the foray is a contributing factor in the War of 1812, which begins shortly thereafter and lasts until 1815."

1976 -- A bad year. Too many entries to quote. negative five stars for the headache.
I'll make a short list of all the crap from 1976 after my next class.

clark · 2005-03-07 14:45:43

1976? Vietnam was over, man.

Don't tell me you're counting the stuff in central and south america. If you're throwing in covert action, then what's the point? :laugh:

Anyway, all of this is open to interpretation [not that I'm whining]. So, some years where the USA was not threatening another people...

1863? Middle of the Civil War, which is ostenibly a conflict between ourselves, and not a third party. Or does that count double since two parts of the United States fought against itself... which might lead one to consider it as a double negative, thus cancelling out the hostility altogether!

I'll also take the double jeopardy question Mr. Trebek, and further point out that the years 1776-1786 were prior to the formalization of the United States of America (it was a Confederation!), so any hostilities occuring in that time period should not count against the USA (it was under different management, which was a lot like the soon to be management, but that didn't have all those fancy sounding titles yet).

I don't want a star, I want a spoon.

Palomar · 2005-03-07 15:50:49

Cindy...1812...come on you can do better than that. Oh well, two gold stars, but I really expected more out of you.

:laugh: Actually, I'm not too knowledgeable about military history. Most of what I know centers on 1776 and WWII.

The Civil War leaves me cold. I know a lot of Americans really get into the Civil War; I frankly hate it and am very reluctant to study it or read about it. (Probably all those trips to eastern Texas via southern Missouri and Arkansas in my childhood and teen years, and getting obscenities shouted at us because of the Iowa license plate on the car has something to do with this; also, all the "Yankee Go Home" signs and hostile, unfriendly stares).

So much for "southern hospitality" -- ha. :down:

--Cindy

Cobra Commander · 2005-03-07 16:13:57

Probably all those trips to eastern Texas via southern Missouri and Arkansas in my childhood and teen years, and getting obscenities shouted at us because of the Iowa license plate on the car has something to do with this; also, all the "Yankee Go Home" signs and hostile, unfriendly stares).

Last time I was in the South I just put a Confederate battle flag sticker in my window and was warmly received, despite my Michigan plates. It's like a parking pass.

But then I've seen more Confederate flags in Northern Michigan than Georgia. :hm:

As for the war itself, it illustrates all sorts of oddities about Americans in general. Both the remarkably civil and the horrendously vile.

Grypd · 2005-03-07 16:31:52

I just found a book that lists all the conflicts or near conflicts that the U.S.A. has been involved in. Most everything I've read so far shows America to be the aggressor.
If you have a favorite year anytime from 1776 to the present, just name it. I'll quote what the book says about that date. If you can give me the year and the war you win a gold star! If you can give me a year when the U.S. has not seriously threatened another people (aka military build up, naval deployment, etc.) or has not been at war you win two gold stars.
Here's a quote from the book:
"We go to war but grudgingly and then only when compelled by the requirements of restoring the peace, justice, and good order, for we among all the peoples of the world comprise the most peace-loving of nations." -- Woodrow Wilson, 1917
One of the paramount difficulties in achieving constructive change in the U.S. is, and has always been, the country's patently false image of itself.

Don't worry, after we have a little fun I'll let you know the name of the book in question. Let the games begin!

Ok I have one what war ended on August 14th 1900.

Martian Republic · 2005-03-07 19:45:41

Actually my (sortof) hometown of Detroit was held by the British in the War of 1812, the only American city to have ever been occupied by a foreign power since the Revolution.

Charleston South Carolina was held by the British too during the War of 1812. The British held Charleston for about two years, before they left Charleston after the war was over.

Larry,

BWhite · 2005-03-07 20:05:44

This http://www.abbeypress.com/abbey//Shoppi … irt]trumps Cobra's Confederate flag!

Palomar · 2005-03-07 21:02:59

This http://www.abbeypress.com/abbey//Shoppi … irt]trumps Cobra's Confederate flag!

*"One Nation Under God"?

Looks to me like the -real- message is "One Nation Under Christianity." (Evangelical/fundamental no doubt).

Ian: If you have a favorite year anytime from 1776 to the present, just name it.

Okay, how about 1879? That was shortly after the Civil War.

--Cindy

P.S.: Bill, in the other thread, the "Merlot" wine situation with that Wisconsin waitress and your wife. Geez, what I know about wine you could put in a thimble and stuff an elephant in after, but even I've known (for a long time) that it's pronounced "Mer-low." Oh well, in the portion of the Midwest where I grew up they pronounced "Italian" as "Eye-talian." (But "Italy" with a short "I"). :laugh:

el scorcho · 2005-03-07 23:10:17

Cindy, as a southerner, allow me to apologize on behalf of the idiots who represent the worst section of society below the Mason-Dixon line. We're not all part of the "yankee go home" mentality; they're a small element. We don't mind yankees at all as long as "y'all" pump money into our tourist traps...er...economy.

Gah--the Civil War. The secession of one or more states was going to happen sooner or later because of the nature of our country at that time and the way our government was set up. The South had threatened secession twice before, the New England states had once or twice, and there were several more that escape me right now. It was just a matter of who worked up the nerve to go through with it and convinced themselves they could repulse an armed repression.

But as for America provoking most of our wars, think about that for a minute. Think of all the places and times we've supposedly provoked a conflict. Now think of the land we hold. The continental U.S. (granted, largely by force, particularly in the West), Alaska (purchased from Russia), Hawaii, and a few more islands. We very easily could have taken Mexico in the 1840s; we didn't. Cuba in 1900; we didn't. Canada on several occasions if I remember correctly; we didn't. All of Europe and Japan post-World War II and if we had played our cards right, the USSR; we didn't and we won't.

The U.S. is not perfect and we have made mistakes--but we are the most generous power to ever exist on this planet. We don't conquer; we liberate. We stay for long enough to clean up the mess, we democratize a formerly-authoritarian state, we make sure it's stable, and we leave. The only land we request is to bury our dead.

BWhite · 2005-03-08 06:40:33

The U.S. is not perfect and we have made mistakes--but we are the most generous power to ever exist on this planet. We don't conquer; we liberate. We stay for long enough to clean up the mess, we democratize a formerly-authoritarian state, we make sure it's stable, and we leave. The only land we request is to bury our dead.

Yup. Once, this was true. Past tense.

Our current Administration is expending the reputation (and wealth) to accomplish its own ends having nothing to do with the values.

Palomar · 2005-03-08 06:46:18

*Oh great...is this thread soon to become "Political Potpourri IV"?

Some of the self-loathing around here is taking on martyr proportions. Go flagellate or something.

Cindy, as a southerner, allow me to apologize on behalf of the idiots who represent the worst section of society below the Mason-Dixon line. We're not all part of the "yankee go home" mentality; they're a small element. We don't mind yankees at all as long as "y'all" pump money into our tourist traps...er...economy.

Hi...no need for you to apologize. Actually I do now live in the south -- actually the Southwest, but this is a former Confederate state, I think. :hm: But a lot of folks in this area are Latino (or Hispanic) and they don't give a hoot about the "north vs south" thing.

--Cindy

Cobra Commander · 2005-03-08 06:48:01

Charleston South Carolina was held by the British too during the War of 1812. The British held Charleston for about two years, before they left Charleston after the war was over.

I'll look into that. If it's the case, I stand corrected.

EDIT::
After a bit of Googling my suspicions have yet to be put down, are you sure you aren't thinking of the Revolutionary War?

Yup. Once, this was true. Past tense.
Our current Administration is expending the reputation (and wealth) to accomplish its own ends having nothing to do with the values.

Or in the tradition of them. Administrations always have their own ends and defeating/occupying a foreign country for reasons other than immediate threat is nothing new. However, those Administrations always believe their ends are good for the country and we usually leave the defeated nation better than we found it. Sure there are a few exceptions <Phillipines> but on the whole the record is quite good.

In all cases, there are people in the countries in question that want us there, those that want us gone, and those that just want it over one way or the other. No one element can be used to guage the entire situation.

Edited By Cobra Commander on 1110290766

Ian Flint · 2005-03-08 07:44:07

Ok,

1863 - "Troops are landed at Shimonoseki, Japan, to "redress an insult to the American flag" embodied in shots being fired across the bow of an American warship. In Utah, a volunteer cavalry unit based near Salt Lake City takes to the field against the Shoshones, perpetrating the Bear River Massacre of about 500 Indians in southern Idaho. To the south, in Arizona, troops under Colonel Kit Carson conduct a concerted campaign against the Navajo. When the Indians surrender a year later, they are force-marched to the Bosque Redondo. Interned there until 1868, about half of all Navajos die of starvation and disease. Meanwhile, President Abraham Lincoln orders troops used to quell antidraft riots in New York, Newark, Boston, Toledo, and elsewhere. About 400 people are killed in New York alone -- the greatest number of any single incident in U.S. history -- lesser numbers in other cities."

Good try clark, but no stars today.

Ian Flint · 2005-03-08 07:49:59

1879 -- "Troops are sent against the Utes in western Colorado, after they kill government agent Nathan Meeker, who has been attempting to starve them into ceding their land. Colorado Governor Frederick Pitkin calls for the Indians' extermination, but settles for compressing survivors into a tiny fraction of their original territory."

1878 - 1879 -- "A campaign is undertaken in Idaho to pacify the so-called "Sheepeaters," reinforced by Bannock, Umatilla and Yakima "recalcitrants."

Sorry cindy, no stars for you.

Ian Flint · 2005-03-08 07:57:03

I don't know what ended in 1900, but here is some other stuff:

1899 - 1901 -- "Major U.S. forces are committed in the Philippines to put down a generalized independence movement. Operations conducted by Brigadier Generals J. Franklin Bell and "Hell Roaring Jake" Smith are consciously genocidal, especially with regard to tribal "Moros" in the southern islands. Upwards of 600,000 Fillipinos are killed. The island of Luzon then becomes the primary basing area for U.S. military operations in Far East (a distinction it retained into the early 1990s).

Sorry Grypd, no stars.

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#1 2005-03-07 00:57:10

Re: Name That American War! - Give me a year, I'll give you a war.

#2 2005-03-07 06:31:31

Re: Name That American War! - Give me a year, I'll give you a war.

#3 2005-03-07 08:00:26

Re: Name That American War! - Give me a year, I'll give you a war.

#4 2005-03-07 08:20:53

Re: Name That American War! - Give me a year, I'll give you a war.

#5 2005-03-07 08:43:25

Re: Name That American War! - Give me a year, I'll give you a war.

#6 2005-03-07 09:03:58

Re: Name That American War! - Give me a year, I'll give you a war.

#7 2005-03-07 09:13:21

Re: Name That American War! - Give me a year, I'll give you a war.

#8 2005-03-07 09:55:01

Re: Name That American War! - Give me a year, I'll give you a war.

#9 2005-03-07 09:59:24

Re: Name That American War! - Give me a year, I'll give you a war.

#10 2005-03-07 10:28:37

Re: Name That American War! - Give me a year, I'll give you a war.

#11 2005-03-07 14:31:33

Re: Name That American War! - Give me a year, I'll give you a war.

#12 2005-03-07 14:45:43

Re: Name That American War! - Give me a year, I'll give you a war.

#13 2005-03-07 15:50:49

Re: Name That American War! - Give me a year, I'll give you a war.

#14 2005-03-07 16:13:57

Re: Name That American War! - Give me a year, I'll give you a war.

#15 2005-03-07 16:31:52

Re: Name That American War! - Give me a year, I'll give you a war.

#16 2005-03-07 19:45:41

Re: Name That American War! - Give me a year, I'll give you a war.

#17 2005-03-07 20:05:44

Re: Name That American War! - Give me a year, I'll give you a war.

#18 2005-03-07 21:02:59

Re: Name That American War! - Give me a year, I'll give you a war.

#19 2005-03-07 23:10:17

Re: Name That American War! - Give me a year, I'll give you a war.

#20 2005-03-08 06:40:33

Re: Name That American War! - Give me a year, I'll give you a war.

#21 2005-03-08 06:46:18

Re: Name That American War! - Give me a year, I'll give you a war.

#22 2005-03-08 06:48:01

Re: Name That American War! - Give me a year, I'll give you a war.

#23 2005-03-08 07:44:07

Re: Name That American War! - Give me a year, I'll give you a war.

#24 2005-03-08 07:49:59

Re: Name That American War! - Give me a year, I'll give you a war.

#25 2005-03-08 07:57:03

Re: Name That American War! - Give me a year, I'll give you a war.

Board footer