Heroism & Space Exploration

SpaceNut · 2005-03-03 06:30:32

We have a stepping stone into space thou maybe not a good one in the ISS and with a little recycling of russian ships and other materials as supplied to LEO. IMO we could be already making trips to mine those asteriods for fuel and minerals. These same recycled ship thou not of luxurious comfort would still do the job of getting use started on the moon missions while waiting for the heavy lift designs of the cev and such to fill the real gap to getting to the moon to stay.

Palomar · 2005-03-06 10:48:01

Spacenut, and ecrasez_l_infame,
What socialist crap, we are in a market / capitalist economy and If you don't like the idea that people come up with ideas and make them happen

MT: What you might not like is that they had choices and chances in their life

*There is another issue here I'd like to address, basically because I think it can't go UNaddressed. I'm not looking to open up another debate on the issue, but rather wish to clarify/explain my stance.

MT's supposition seems to be that everyone has choices and chances. That simply is untrue.

A loved one of mine, in his youth, worked for his hometown's garage. He was a very good mechanic. He had dreams of some day buying the garage and becoming more successful with it than his employer had been. Then an explosion on the job left him with a head injury, seizures, etc. He didn't have a choice or a chance, and since his mid-20s is on a fixed income (Social Security Disability). Recently he lost over half his life's savings (from the on-the-job injury settlement) "thanks" to a financial investor here in town who apparently has used others' money to enrich himself. A lawyer is looking into the matter.

An able-bodied crook, lying to and swindling a disabled person (and other people too). Frankly I think that sucks.

If Martha Stewart had been involved in a traumatic accident with resultant brain injury 30 years ago (I'm glad she wasn't, because I wouldn't wish that on anyone) we'd have never heard of her.

Lots of people tend to "forget" (conveniently it seems) that real life isn't fair (the "choices and chances" blah blah blah). The supposition is that if you succeed "you deserved it" (forget chance and sometimes sheer luck). And of course the (unspoken) flip side to that is if you don't succeed you must have "deserved" not to.
Bullcrap.

No one asks to become disabled, to be born mentally retarded, etc.

I think of the employees of Enron, who enrolled in Enron's 401(k) plan. Meanwhile, the CEO, COO and other head honchos were "cooking the books." The company went belly up and employees who invested thousands of dollars of their own hard-earned money were screwed. That money was gone. Meanwhile, Ken Lay and his cohorts are allowed to keep their luxurious mansions, fancy sports cars, etc. Oink, oink. Although I have heard one of those thieves (let's call them for what they are) is soon to go to prison for fraud ("cooking the books"), lying under oath. Good! I love justice. :up:

Are all millionaires filthy swindlers and cheats? Probably not. But a lot/most of them probably are. And most of them will never consider that it'd only have taken an injury or birth defect to have permanently taken them "out of the running." No, they're too smug to consider that. And too full of themselves to be grateful.

As for Kathy Lee Gifford, Michael Jordan, etc.: They are exploiting and taking advantage of very poor and desperate people. They could pay them more, but they won't: Because they don't have to and they don't care (and the poor Asian villagers have few if any choices). They're thieves and swindlers, and I object to their methods.

I've also lived for the past 13 years in an area mostly populated by a "minority" race. I've seen the contrast between my former White Bread World and how much more these people struggle for what they want. Because my last name is now a "minority" last name, I've occasionally faced hostility and aggression over the telephone by people of this nation's dominant race (of which I too am a member) who mistakenly presume I'm of the "minority" race -- and who apparently presume they're "entitled" to speak to me in that manner (they quickly find out otherwise). Yeah, I've gotten a taste of a different reality which hundreds of thousands of people likely face on a daily basis. And all I'd have to do is resort to using my maiden name again to be "back on top." But I refuse to do that.

Of course it's easy to disregard or ignore certain facts of life until it hits you in the face. I used to live in a White Bread World where this and that "could be" because I wanted it to be. Then I saw another side of life (actually, a couple of other sides of life)...and my little illusions crumbled.

It's been a good learning experience.

I don't take advantage of others, and was once in a position of unexpected but real power at a job I held in the 1990s (which I left when my husband and I moved 200 miles away). I didn't abuse it, did not step on others. And I sure don't have time for others who step on, kick around and abuse others.

Again, the notion -- supposition -- that everyone has chances and choices is *not* true. At best, it's a noble lie.

--Cindy

Kings have long arms, but Misfortune longer,
Let none think themselves out of her reach.
(Benjamin Franklin)

"As I would not be a slave, so I would not be a master. This expresses my idea of democracy." (Abraham Lincoln)

Ian Flint · 2005-03-06 13:37:45

I agree with all your points except one, Cindy.

You said that the astronauts of the Mercury-Gemini-Apollo era were your heros. If I had lived back then they would have been mine as well. But you never said that the politicians in congress were your heros. They are the ones that gave NASA its money, by the way, and they did it mostly to prove U.S. dominance during the Cold War. Once proved they killed Apollo and stopped exploring space. That right there is a fad.

The astronauts of today like Melville and that other guy (number two never gets remembered, poor shmuck), are heros as well. If their bosses had marketed them a little better they would have been bigger heros than the Apollo astronauts, in my opinion. Its the bosses, just like the politicians, that nobody cares about, probably because they have alterior motives -- like profit.

The systems that get astronauts into space are all the same in my book, and the astronauts are all heros in my book as well.

Martian Republic · 2005-03-06 14:30:10

I agree with all your points except one, Cindy.
You said that the astronauts of the Mercury-Gemini-Apollo era were your heros. If I had lived back then they would have been mine as well. But you never said that the politicians in congress were your heros. They are the ones that gave NASA its money, by the way, and they did it mostly to prove U.S. dominance during the Cold War. Once proved they killed Apollo and stopped exploring space. That right there is a fad.
The astronauts of today like Melville and that other guy (number two never gets remembered, poor shmuck), are heros as well. If their bosses had marketed them a little better they would have been bigger heros than the Apollo astronauts, in my opinion. Its the bosses, just like the politicians, that nobody cares about, probably because they have alterior motives -- like profit.
The systems that get astronauts into space are all the same in my book, and the astronauts are all heros in my book as well.

Actually the problem of the space program being stopped goes deeper than that. It actually the financial power brokers that stop our space program. It the financial banking Oligarchy that stopped the space program, because they were afraid of losing there control over the United States and the world. The United States was developing a we can do this spirit and we can solve any problem and lick any obstacle that stand in our way of colonizing the moon and Mars. Not only that, we can lick any problem here on Earth too. That kind of a forward thinking people is a threat to those financial Oligarchy people and so they decided to kill the space program. It is also this same financial Oligarchy that going Social Security too and trying to ripe it off or Piratize it. If given a chance they will destroy Social Security the same way they destroyed the NASA space programs.

Larry,

Ian Flint · 2005-03-06 16:18:27

And the sky is falling, too.

reddragon · 2005-03-06 16:46:36

Even if many or all of the millionaires wanting to go into space are just following a fad (which I think is probably true), they may be useful. If they are willing to pay for their own space adventures, it will help to advance technology for space exploration. Even if they don't care about the cause of exploring and colonizing space, these people may help to advance it. They're not heros in my book, but if they're willing to pay large sums of money to go to space I don't mind. Space tourism companies will have to compete to provide the best trip for their high paying customers. This may aid the development of single stage to orbit vehicles. If the fad fades and the millionaires stop looking for trips into space, we certainly won't be any worse off than we were before and we may be better off. I think that they are giving both publicity and funds to the cause of space exploration. We would do well to encourage this. The greed of the rich and powerful may yet help to advance the dreams of true space enthusiasts. Of course I wouldn't count on commercialization alone as a way to create a spacefaring civilization; but it will be an integral part of such a civilization, since it will supply much of the money needed to maintain it.

An analogy to this situation might be found in advertising. I dislike advertising and find it annoying and hate the way it pops up in every conceivable place. But if someone offered to fund a mission to Mars if they could put their company logo all over it, I'd agree in a heartbeat.

Palomar · 2005-03-06 17:36:07

I agree with all your points except one, Cindy.
You said that the astronauts of the Mercury-Gemini-Apollo era were your heros. If I had lived back then they would have been mine as well. But you never said that the politicians in congress were your heros. They are the ones that gave NASA its money, by the way, and they did it mostly to prove U.S. dominance during the Cold War. Once proved they killed Apollo and stopped exploring space. That right there is a fad.
The astronauts of today like Melville and that other guy (number two never gets remembered, poor shmuck), are heros as well. If their bosses had marketed them a little better they would have been bigger heros than the Apollo astronauts, in my opinion. Its the bosses, just like the politicians, that nobody cares about, probably because they have alterior motives -- like profit.
The systems that get astronauts into space are all the same in my book, and the astronauts are all heros in my book as well.

*Hi Ian.

Your points are well taken, and I understand where you're coming from. The congressmen in question, though, were elected officials. Who ultimately work for the taxpayer and who, if they screw up spectacularly enough, can get the boot. I'm not overly thrilled with government officials either (understatement) but there -are- watchdog groups monitoring them, they do answer to a higher authority and there is a checks and balances system built into the government thanks to the foresight and wisdom of this nation's founders.

Not sure I agree with your statement that NASA "stopped exploring space," though. Manned exploration (besides the space shuttle) hasn't commenced again, but we do have our probes and robots/rovers (all doing a splendid, spectacular job and NASA deserves high praise in this regard). Plus, there are plans to at least go back to the Moon.

The NASA astronauts belonged to us. It was -- and is -- part of America. The natural inclusiveness of it is desirable and beneficial, IMO.

Like Opportunity and Spirit on Mars: It's wonderful to know that our tax dollars are helping to fund the mission. :up: We're part of it. Sure, if a gazillionaire had funded S and O I'd enjoy the return of science data. But it's more special to know the MERs belong to all of us.

--Cindy

Ian Flint · 2005-03-07 00:26:53

foresight and wisdom of this nation's founders.

Ha!

Boy do I have a book for you. Look for it in Free Chat soon.

SpaceNut · 2005-03-07 06:25:07

The only way that millionaires will aid in the infrastructure of space is if it only cost millions to get there. That said we all know that only the russian fit into that category and while the US has the technology it is at the cost of billions and not millions.

Edit
With the sucessful flight of SpaceShipOne and Virgin going out to make sub orbital possible. One can only hope that the tourist business does lead to space for all.

The article Banking on £805 million of promises that is estimated from a the response to the question as posted by Virgin Galactic to a signup mailer last year

“Would you consider putting down a deposit for a ride when we are ready for you to do so?”

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#26 2005-03-03 06:30:32

Re: Heroism & Space Exploration

#27 2005-03-06 10:48:01

Re: Heroism & Space Exploration

#28 2005-03-06 13:37:45

Re: Heroism & Space Exploration

#29 2005-03-06 14:30:10

Re: Heroism & Space Exploration

#30 2005-03-06 16:18:27

Re: Heroism & Space Exploration

#31 2005-03-06 16:46:36

Re: Heroism & Space Exploration

#32 2005-03-06 17:36:07

Re: Heroism & Space Exploration

#33 2005-03-07 00:26:53

Re: Heroism & Space Exploration

#34 2005-03-07 06:25:07

Re: Heroism & Space Exploration

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