Political Potpourri III - The next round.

clark · 2005-03-03 10:42:28

I can support a "draft" in any form, if our life and liberty is directly threatened. If there is an apparent and immeidate threat. I think most reasonable people would agree.

I cannot support these types of suggestions for quasi-drafts to go play social-king-maker to make us all feel better about being us.

You want to give people tax-breaks for doing community service or serving our country, I'll sign. You want to offer discounted college loans, I'll vote for it. You want to offer a real incentive, great. But to instutite requirements and dress them up as "choice", I think you have your priorities wrong and should think some more about what you're talking about.

Education is the means of upward mobility in this country, and restricting access, in any form, is working against a fundamental principle of what makes the US great. Society loses out by fewer individuals having the choice to live their lives as they choose. We benefit from people being happy in making their choices, not in relenting to the pressure of federal dictate.

BWhite · 2005-03-03 10:49:22

An editorial on http://www.flatoday.com/apps/pbcs.dll/a … ernational cooperation. . .

clark · 2005-03-03 10:55:29

Obviously, what we need a Space U.N.

How else will we save all those poor microbes suffering under terraforming genocide?

Cobra Commander · 2005-03-03 11:14:30

But to instutite requirements and dress them up as "choice", I think you have your priorities wrong and should think some more about what you're talking about.

Thinking about priorities is precisely what I'm saying we need to do. Your arguments against a quasi-draft are perfectly valid, but also rather arbitrary. Requiring military service prior to college enrollment is stifling access, fine. So is requiring they pass a specific test or pay a certain amount in tuition. Taking away choice in the name of security and just making us better people is unAmerican, yet I have no choice in paying for the social safety net you've frequently argued is necessary for just those reasons. Arbitrary value judgments.

So what is important to us and what isn't, that's what we need to determine. We can't ignore terrorism, but how far are we willing to go for the people living in terrorist states? What about genocide, do we care enough about the Sudanese to intervene or is it more important that we have the option of going to college without ever having to lift a gun, or shovel? I don't have the answers and wouldn't presume to speak for the entire country, but collectively we need to think about it. What kind of people do we want to be and how far are we willing to go to make it happen?

All I can ask that when we choose a path we accept it fully and stop lamenting the downs that come with it.

clark · 2005-03-03 11:27:07

Requiring military service prior to college enrollment is stifling access, fine. So is requiring they pass a specific test or pay a certain amount in tuition.

I agree, do away with tuition. Do away with standardized tests. Where did I say those things were "good"? You're throwing them in there in an obvious attempt to deflect the ample criticism that exsists for these poor ideas you usually defend.

Taking away choice in the name of security and just making us better people is unAmerican, yet I have no choice in paying for the social safety net you've frequently argued is necessary for just those reasons.

One, you need to establish that our security is threatened to such an extent that we need to reduce choices. You also need to establish that your social engineering program of enforced "voulenterism" is going to make us better people.

As for you having to pay for the social saftey net, well, that's once more you throwing in extraneous issues without dealing with the very thing you are trying to defend and justify. You say, "well, what about your pile of sh*t, that should justify mine!" Well, it dosen't. It's not arbitrary, it's just life.

We can't ignore terrorism, but how far are we willing to go for the people living in terrorist states?

Drafting the populace to work for Uncle Sam so he can be more effective in invading a greater number of countries seems to lead towards making more enemies, not fewer.

What about genocide, do we care enough about the Sudanese to intervene or is it more important that we have the option of going to college without ever having to lift a gun, or shovel?

To be quite honest with you, I don't know where Sudan is, nor do I care. Fu*k em. If the choice is between some more Joe and Jane's going to college, having a life, rasing an all american family, or going to go get shot by some darkie in some god-forsaken land, I'm all for Joe and Jane America.

Sudan isn't on the map when it comes to our interests, and you know it. But the "freedom" march will lead us down that road and waste our blood and treasure.

What kind of people do we want to be and how far are we willing to go to make it happen?

I don't want empire, most American's don't want empire, as a country, our history has been one of moving away from empire. You my friend are in the small minority.

Cobra Commander · 2005-03-03 11:39:06

To be quite honest with you, I don't know where Sudan is, nor do I care. Fu*k em. If the choice is between some more Joe and Jane's going to college, having a life, rasing an all american family, or going to go get shot by some darkie in some god-forsaken land, I'm all for Joe and Jane America.

Okay, an honest answer. That's all I was after. You've made your choice and decided your priorities. You have your shit pile and I have mine, they're based on different ideals and that's that.

Now which way will the rest go is the question.

I don't want empire, most American's don't want empire, as a country, our history has been one of moving away from empire. You my friend are in the small minority.

From a certain point of view. While I don't think Americans are either desirous nor of the mettle for empire-building the assertion that ours is a history of moving away from it is highly debateable. Since the revolution we have been on a steady course of expansion, strengthening federal control, foreign intervention, influence over other nations and ever greater military presence in foreign lands. One could argue that empire is in fact following the natural course of our development to its conclusion.

But then if we don't give a damn about foreigners all we have to do is work out that oil habit and we'll have it made, comfortable and empire free. Foreign threats can be dealt with using little or no American troops if all we seek is to make them stop bothering us.

clark · 2005-03-03 11:47:42

One could argue that empire is in fact following the natural course of our development to its conclusion.

Or one could argue that our current problems are the results of our empire-like behavior. It would then make more sense not to continue the same old habits, but learn and improve upon our mistakes- in the finest american tradition.

We pursue empire to solve problems, so we end up dealing with problems that result from empire, so we pursue empire to solve problems, so we end up on the never ending cycle of repeat, wash, rinse.

There's 1.2 billion Commie's in China. We going to go liberate them? There's 300 million ruskies who are being oppresed, we going to go save them? Think about what you advocate, now strip away the idealism and don't you realize that perhaps your ideas will be used by some politcal-hack for personal glory and power? Don't you think groups will use these crusades and these new instutions for their own aggrandizement?

You're talking about ideals leading to a better more prosperous world in which we are ultimelty ruled by people looking for the betterment of us all. But you know sh*t dosen't smell that pretty Cobra.

Cobra Commander · 2005-03-03 12:01:09

Clark, see previous posts about "realism". Of course we can't go liberate China or dozens of other places. We can't catch every burglar either, but if I catch one pilfering my stuff I'm not gonna let it go. Same basic premise, in Sudan we have a genuine atrocity in progress and a very real danger of that nation becoming a failed state and a haven for terrorists. If we do nothing now mark my words we will regret it.

Again, empire or isolationism, I can probably live with either. It's trying to do both and neither at the same time that isn't going to cut it. In the most simple terms, empire with all the problems it entails or chill and let the world burn. There will always be another Afghanistan, Iraq, Sudan etc if we act and always another terrorist state to spew out jihadis if we do nothing.

But again, you've already made your mind up and you aren't going to convince me so this entire exercise is rather pointless.

clark · 2005-03-03 12:35:54

Well you see Cobra, this entire exercise is pointless. That's the point.

We each come here and bring our preconceived notions and beat and berate each other in an attempt to make ourselves feel better for believing whatever it is we happen to believe.

It's a big joke.

You don't believe half the stuff you spout. If you did, you would be in the streets yelling and demanding it.

You don't give a fig about suffering Sudanese (little note, they've been suffering for years and years before all of this) other than how it can be used to fit into your warped Pax-Emricana fantasy. So yes, I find your holier than thou attitude a bit disingenuous.

If we do nothing, and Sudan becomes a failed state, we will regret it. Sure. I and you are really regretting Rawanda now, aren't we?

These arab states that spew out jihadi's do so because western nations saw fit to provide military aid to dictators during the cold war. They're rightfully pissed.

I don't think extremism, of either empire or isolationism is the answer. Moderation in all things dude. We need to engage, but we need to do it in a more artful manner than jusgt bombing and invading under pretense and self-delusion.

Cobra Commander · 2005-03-03 13:10:27

You don't believe half the stuff you spout. If you did, you would be in the streets yelling and demanding it.

Who says I haven't been? Perhaps not in the sense of actually marching through the streets (though I've been there as well) but trying to get anyone and everyone to consider what's happening and how to fix it.

You don't give a fig about suffering Sudanese (little note, they've been suffering for years and years before all of this) other than how it can be used to fit into your warped Pax-Emricana fantasy. So yes, I find your holier than thou attitude a bit disingenuous.

I'm well aware of what's been going in Sudan as well as the rest of Africa for a very long time, it's a primary reason for my conclusion that perhaps colonialism wasn't as bad as it's fashionable to present it as. While you may condemn me as disingenuous for not personally going over there the fact remains that I've been consistent on this for years. Only we can help and if we do so it will require a bit of quasi-imperial tendencies on our part.

Unless enough people decide they're willing to go on their own to do some good, then I'll more than happily go and shoot bad guys, irrigate crops and impose stability through an American proxy government.

Oh, and holier than you are. :laugh:

If we do nothing, and Sudan becomes a failed state, we will regret it. Sure. I and you are really regretting Rawanda now, aren't we?

Rwanda managed to avoid total "failed state" status and occurred before al Qaeda and similar groups were as large as they later became, before direct attacks on the US were part of their bag of tricks. Sudan (a country bin Laden has operated out of in the past) could prove far more problematic.

But in a more basic sense, many do regret it. We knew what was happening and did nothing. If our actions breed anger against us as you argue, then so does our inaction.

These arab states that spew out jihadi's do so because western nations saw fit to provide military aid to dictators during the cold war. They're rightfully pissed.

They spew out jihadis because their governments are corrupt, even those not former clients of the US, and some extremists use the poverty and anger of the people caused by those corrupt governments and direct it against America and Israel because they're easy scapegoats. It's a cynical ploy on the part of terrorist leaders.

As for moderation, has it ever occurred to you that what we are presently doing is the moderate approach? We can't do nothing and we can't do everything, but that leaves a lot of grey area. What we've done in Afghanistan is moderate, what we're doing in Iraq is moderate even if you believe that the entire premise for the war was bunk, looking at a wider view of Islamic terrorism in general it's a middle-of-the-road approach.

And that's enough trollfeed for now I think.

Cobra Commander · 2005-03-03 13:54:26

An editorial on international cooperation. . .

Okay, back to space stuff. Aside from a few misconceptions and ignorant statements in the article, it does revisit the old issue of cooperation.

I've got no problem with cooperation in space, as long as it makes sense. ISS isn't the model to follow, where we design the program to accomodate partners whose contributions we end up paying for. Better to have just bought the modules from the Russians and been done with it.

From a purely mission standpoint anyway. However perhaps from a political standpoint there are other considerations. Working with Japan is no problem, but what about China? If we go about it right we can cooperate with the Chinese, get them to foot some of the bill and at the same time make their program dependent on ours while keeping ours viable on its own. Get the Chicoms to help pave the way to Mars with all the gains coming to us.

Kinda like the railroad. :hm:

Palomar · 2005-03-04 09:32:38

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s … ]Elections might result in loss of freedom for -this- segment of the Iraqi population?

*It sure would be the height of irony if things "work out" the way the people in this article believes it will. And considering the history of the region, it wouldn't surprise me at all. I sure do feel for them.

--Cindy

Palomar · 2005-03-05 17:30:32

*Not sure I should re-open that particular discussion. I'm not feeling well anyway, since this afternoon. Not a good time to make certain statements. Might post what I originally had in here again later.

Am just not up to it, there are so many factors (some confusing)...so I'll can the hang-wringing for now and might post again later. Sorry (not intentional).

Gee whiz, I'm so stressed about these political issues that I actually accidentally posted the following (in edit mode) in the post above this one. :-\ Here goes -- I just feel SO inadequate discussing politics (it definitely is NOT my "forte") and what I think doesn't matter anyway (except to me). It's aggravating to want to actually DO something about various situations, but this is akin to being a tiny twig borne along by the furious flood waters of the Mississippi...

--Cindy

BWhite · 2005-03-05 22:03:24

Central Wisconsin, the land of beer, brats and cheese. My poor wife tried to order a glass of wine.

Kept saying mer-low, mer-low and finally the waitress say "oh, you mean mer-lot (rhymes with cot) why didn't you say so?"

Nonetheless, Madison remains a liberal stronghold. Gotta keep the post on-thread. :;):

BWhite · 2005-03-06 09:28:39

A good Sunday morning Hunter S. Thompson quote:

"This may be the year when we finally come face to face with ourselves; finally just lay back and say it -- that we are really just a nation of 220 million used car salesmen with all the money we need to buy guns, and no qualms at all about killing anybody else in the world who tries to make us uncomfortable."
Hunter S. Thompson- Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail 1972

The sermon on the above text is left as an exercise for the reader.

:;):

Grypd · 2005-03-07 08:41:56

On Friday night in Iraq, A car was approaching Baghdad airport when it was fired upon by US soldiers guarding that road. In the Vehicle was the freed Italian hostage Ms Giuliana Sgrena a reporter for a communist newspaper and Italian secret service agents. As the car was raked by Bullets the lead Negotiator jumped across Ms Sgrena and though she was hit by shrapnel she survived. The lead negotiator though was killed.

His name was Nicola Calipari and today his funeral was held in Rome. Rome stopped for this hero.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4324445.stm]The Funeral of Nicola Calipari.

Italy is one of the United States greatest supporters in Iraq and in europe. It has over 3000 troops in Iraq making it the third largest contingent after the US and UK. It also has a very wavering support for the war in Iraq or it did until this weekend.

Itallians are now broadly against this war and want an immediate pullout. It does not help that there where claims that the shooting was not a tragic mistake but deliberate. Today Ms Sgrena joined in today stating on National TV and in her own newspaper that she truly believed it was no accident. This seems to be the belief of most Italians as well and support and trust of the US just freefalled.

But it does not matter as much as today Italy honoured and Burried a truly brave man who knew his duty and was willing to risk his life for his country. He gave the ultimate sacrifice and I really think he should be mentioned here.

Nicola Calipari left a wife and two children.

Alexander Sheppard · 2005-03-07 12:11:01

Um, I don't really follow individual deaths in Iraq very much, because there is so many of them it seems to only make sense to use statistics. So, the most prominent study on this estimates something on the order of 100,000 deaths. Other examinations such as Iraq Body Count, which just counts verifiable deaths, estimate 16-18 thousand. How often this is heard about in the media compared with the 1,500 dead US troops is an interesting topic.

Anyway, Italy has always been strongly against being involved in the Iraq war. In fact, when the war was beginning, polls said it was significantly more opposed than France and Germany. The main difference is that the leaders in Italy aren't listening to the population, they're taking orders from Washington. Probably the biggest challenge facing the European anti-war movement right now is Italy and Britain. The Italian leadership is probably most vulnerable because popular opinion is so against it.

Public support in Britain and the US fluctuates from time to time, and appears to be mostly even about the war. This is a direct result of the fact that large numbers of the people in these countries believe certain hysterical lies told by their governments, such as Iraq was an imminent threat to national security. This was not even believed in Kuwait before the war, or Iran, who both were actually attacked by Hussein's government when it was an appreciable force. In fact, Hussein's government was the weakest in the region, struggling even to control all of its own territory.

Cobra Commander · 2005-03-07 12:15:56

Public support in Britain and the US fluctuates from time to time, and appears to be mostly even about the war. This is a direct result of the fact that large numbers of the people in these countries believe certain hysterical lies told by their governments, such as Iraq was an imminent threat to national security.

Or it could be the twin factors that Iraq can't be allowed to fail or it will breed terrorists for a generation, and for all the venom against the idea of spreading democracy in the Middle East... it's starting to work.

BWhite · 2005-03-07 22:23:28

I see Cobra has cracked open the Kool-Aid again.

Last weekend David Brooks (a Bushie) wrote a column gushing about a Lebanese politician demanding that Syria withdraw their forces. "See" Brooks wrote, "Bush got it right."

Unfortunately, a month ago that same Lebanese praised those killing US soldiers in Iraq. Seems he wants the Syrians the hell out of Lebanon AND the Americans the hell out of Iraq. And if killing Americans helped that goal, well good.

Yup, freedom is on the march.

Edited By BWhite on 1110255906

BWhite · 2005-03-07 22:31:13

The United Nations is clearly http://news.ft.com/cms/s/e480e88c-8f79- … .html]DEAD!

As dead as those Monty Python parrots.

Champagne is offered for Cobra and Shaun Barrett. Time well tell whether we are looking at another instance where the barking dog finally caught the bus. :;):

Edited By BWhite on 1110256335

Cobra Commander · 2005-03-08 06:25:30

I see Cobra has cracked open the Kool-Aid again.

Don't start stirring the sugar in just yet, Bill. I'm well aware of the problems and never claimed that everything was going exactly according to plan. However the general trend seems to be following a positive course. Sure there have been and will continue to be setbacks, but those who continue to claim it's a hopeless endeavor and a complete failure are not watching.

<proffers dixie cup> try some.

Champagne is offered for Cobra and Shaun Barrett. Time well tell whether we are looking at another instance where the barking dog finally caught the bus.

Again, my preferred option has always been to subvert and use the UN for our own ends rather than simply killing it, but being something of a pragmatist I'll take what I can get.

At any rate, it isn't dead yet.

BWhite · 2005-03-08 08:50:49

On Friday night in Iraq, A car was approaching Baghdad airport when it was fired upon by US soldiers guarding that road. In the Vehicle was the freed Italian hostage Ms Giuliana Sgrena a reporter for a communist newspaper and Italian secret service agents. As the car was raked by Bullets the lead Negotiator jumped across Ms Sgrena and though she was hit by shrapnel she survived. The lead negotiator though was killed.
His name was Nicola Calipari and today his funeral was held in Rome. Rome stopped for this hero.

This story may http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0, … c=rss]just be beginning.

Cobra Commander · 2005-03-08 09:02:51

This story may just be beginning.

And this must be investigated much more thoroughly. If it's just the Leftist press making noise it doesn't matter, but if there's something to it we need to address it.

As far as I'm concerned, any American soldier that starts raping/pillaging like a Soviet conscript should be publicly executed, but I also don't take kindly to such accusations being leveled without compelling evidence.

BWhite · 2005-03-08 10:27:47

This story may just be beginning.
And this must be investigated much more thoroughly. If it's just the Leftist press making noise it doesn't matter, but if there's something to it we need to address it.
As far as I'm concerned, any American soldier that starts raping/pillaging like a Soviet conscript should be publicly executed, but I also don't take kindly to such accusations being leveled without compelling evidence.

(a) Fair enough, I agree; and

(b) Stories like the Guardian story (even if willfully false) gain traction precisely because this Administration has been less than transparent concerning Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo & the rendition of terror suspects to nations that openly torture.

Thus, cases like the one with Jose Padilla (the US citizen being held without pending charges) undermine our moral legitimacy and is therefore imprudent even if all issues of morality are set aside.

= = =

From a purely Machiavellian perspective, whether the Guardian story is true is less important than whether the Guradian story is believed on the streets of Europe.

Transparent investigation of such charges (as called for by Cobra) accomplishes two objectives:

(a) justice; and

(b) furthering the "psy ops" war needed to maintain the moral high ground.

Edited By BWhite on 1110299466

Cobra Commander · 2005-03-08 10:41:05

(b) Stories like the Guardian story (even if willfully false) gain traction precisely because this Administration has been less than transparent concerning Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo & the rendition of terror suspects to nations that openly torture.

And because there are people eager to believe anything negative about the war in Iraq and the US in general. While we have made mistakes that exacerbate the problem, their are many who would choose to believe even the most outlandish accusations regardless.

That said, transparent investigations and punishments are vital to the "winning hearts and minds" aspects of the operation. On that we can agree.

Though I'm sure we'd differ somewhat in the application.

Edited By Cobra Commander on 1110300079

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