Heroism & Space Exploration

Palomar · 2005-03-01 15:27:53

*Apparently a group of Chinese millionaires are taking astronaut training for private spaceflight adventures.

We've got a mix of opinions here at New Mars regarding private spaceflight leading us on to Mars and etc. versus the old-fashioned way, i.e. via an agency.

The NASA astronauts were my heroes as a child. They still are (and the Gemini and Mercury 'nauts too).

I really doubt any millionaire -- or group of them -- could have or would have created the same response in me. Of course I can only speak for myself.

Via an agency, they're in the employ of the public. They're a part of us. That's powerful.

Millionaires? They don't have to give a damn; they're not part of us.

I have my own gripes with agencies, of course. But the heroism factor is, IMO, more marked and real via an agency and I think this may -- and likely will -- assist with us getting "out there" permanently.

Most folks like to feel as though they're part of something special and grand, and that they have a special emotional attachment to someone who "belongs" (I use that term loosely) to them.

Super-wealthy private individuals don't have that aura. Not to me, anyway.

--Cindy

RobertDyck · 2005-03-01 18:48:56

How about a boy from the blue-collar part of town whose father was a welder with the railroad and grandparents were farmers, starting a space company and growing it to become rich, then mounting a private mission to Mars and commanding it himself. What if this entrepreneur followed that by sending a construction crew to build a permanent base after 3 science/exploration missions, then started construction of a settler transport ship as the Mars crew builds housing for settlers. Yup, I'm talking about my own fantasy. My father was a construction worker for steel bridges and refinery oil tanks before my mother got pregnant with me. He thought a steady job at a single location would permit him time with his family. To further that career he took engineering at community college; it wasn't a university so it wasn't a degree, and it focussed on practical things like advanced welding techniques rather than the math of an engineer, but he became the best welder in the heavy equipment shop. My mother was a telephone operator but worked her way to supervisor in her early 20s. After having her kids, she got a job as bookkeeper with an office temp agency, then got a permanent job as a bookkeeper with aspirations to head the accounting department (today we would call that comptroller). However, the president asked her to create/manage the company's first computer department. Both my parents believed whatever you do you should be the best. Ok, come to think of it both my parents were nerds so I'm a…well… My grandmother pointed out I was the first of her grandchildren to attend university, her children didn't.

Does it have to be a government agency; you really wouldn't accept a little guy with a big dream?

Palomar · 2005-03-01 20:45:34

Does it have to be a government agency; you really wouldn't accept a little guy with a big dream?

*Your personal story aside, since when is a millionaire "a little guy"? And since when do they care about others? Exclusive/capitalist/exploitative.

Agencies have to "care" to an extent -- they answer to the persons who fund their livelihood (the taxpayer). Inclusive (even if "by default")/socialist/innovative.

Maybe I'm wrong, but that's my view.

I also haven't gotten the impression -- at any point throughout life -- that most people view millionaires as "heroes" (unless they're capitalist sharks -- or wannabe sharks -- themselves).

The old-era NASA astronauts were heros. Richard Branson isn't; he's simply following a fad -- as is Jeff Bezos and etc. --and trying to rake in extra money and attention while doing so.

But of course we all probably have our own concepts and definitions of what a hero is.

Some folks seem to believe all these millionaires suddenly oh-so-interested in private spaceflight will eventually lead the rest of us "out there."

Maybe. But I'm very skeptical, especially as the fad factor goes. Were they interested in private spaceflight and/or space exploration even 10 years ago? Ever? If not, they're simply following a fad.

Guess we'll find out.

--Cindy

Shaun Barrett · 2005-03-01 21:26:24

James Cameron is a millionaire, I imagine.
Did he get the money by being "Exclusive/capitalist/exploitative"? I don't really know but that's not the impression I get. It looks to me like he made his money by working hard and producing cinematic works of art I know I've enjoyed over the years.

If James Cameron, or RobertDyck for that matter (nice dream, Robert :up: ), were to accumulate enough money by being honest, hard-working, business people to bring about the colonization of Mars, they'd have my praise and support.
I tend to agree with Robert that the "little guy" (by comparison with a national government, I think he means) doesn't necessarily have to be a bastard to have accumulated wealth. Nice guys don't always have to come last, though I understand that's the way to bet!

Now, if RobertDyck's dream ever comes to fruition, and I very much hope it does, many people might be tempted to say: "Aaargh! Just another rich guy who's suddenly out to make a buck in space travel. I bet the sumbitch never even heard of space until someone said you can make money there!"
But we'd know different, wouldn't we?
How can we be sure that Richard Branson hasn't been a space nut all his life but never dared hope he could make a difference until Burt Rutan showed him how? ???

Just a point of view, that's all.

Euler · 2005-03-01 21:32:58

What about someone like John Carmack? Armadillo Aerospace still has a long way to go, but if they do end up accomplishing something worthwhile I would consider Carmack a hero.

You should not stereotype millionaires. Not all of them have always been rich, and not all of them care only about making money.

Martin_Tristar · 2005-03-02 00:33:24

ecrasez_l_infame,

Most of the Innovation came from people with ideas ( millionaires ) that were "normal" men and women in society that had the right time and place to create millions of dollars from selling their idea/s to their marketplace. What you might not like is that they had choices and chances in their life and went with them, and through hard work and lucky achieved some things in their lives.

If they want to use their money to expand their lives into space onto Mars or Moon or Asteroids or anywhere else, then its their life to do so.

What is a hero ? - Is a person that excels in a field of knowledge, courage or sacrifice for humanity and that knowledge, courage or sacrifice has made humanity better race for the future.

Palomar · 2005-03-02 05:19:44

You should not stereotype millionaires. Not all of them have always been rich, and not all of them care only about making money.

*But most do.

Most of the Innovation came from people with ideas ( millionaires ) that were "normal" men and women in society that had the right time and place to create millions of dollars from selling their idea/s to their marketplace. What you might not like is that they had choices and chances in their life and went with them, and through hard work and lucky achieved some things in their lives.

*And by overworking and underpaying -- i.e., exploiting -- their workers. Michael Jordan has millions more as his sports shoes go -- "thanks" to paying Asian employees 7 cents an hour. Same for Kathy Lee Gifford and her clothing line. Yes, it's easy to get rich when you can take advantage of poor people, pay them a mere pittance and work them for hours on end (with no benefits besides -- just the 7 cents an hour). And don't tell me "Well, those people are happy to get the 7 cents an hour" -- MJ and KLG *could* pay them more, without it hurting their bank accounts in the least, and if you're on the side of these sorts of millionaires then I can't believe YOU would settle for 7 cents an hour, if you were a poor Asian villager. They're being -taken advantage of- because they have few if little options; MJ and KLG know they can take advantage, and they do.

These are the kinds of people you're supporting? You have my pity.

If they want to use their money to expand their lives into space onto Mars or Moon or Asteroids or anywhere else, then its their life to do so.

*Yep, I guess so. And it's going to be for themselves. Not for the greater good of mankind.

What is a hero ? - Is a person that excels in a field of knowledge, courage or sacrifice for humanity and that knowledge, courage or sacrifice has made humanity better race for the future.

*A person who excels in a field of knowledge: Doesn't necessarily mean that person is a hero. Was Josef Mengele a hero?

Courage, perhaps.

Sacrifice for humanity -- we're still talking about millionaires here? :laugh: Thanks, I needed that laugh.

The only thing they sacrifice is the blood, sweat and tears of other people -- for their own enrichment.

Wake up.

Most millionaires going out into space don't care about moving -humankind- out into space, nor leading, etc. Their aim is more money and more publicity. They aren't "sacrificing themselves" for the greater good (LOL...give me a break). They're out to make another buck.

I can't believe how naive some people are. But that's another benefit the rich have, I suppose: Most everyone's scrambling to kiss their butts, to paint them as great and compassionate humanitarians (a few of them are...most are NOT), etc.

An agency is still the best bet, IMO, because it's necessarily inclusive.

--Cindy

P.S. Martin Tristar wrote:

What you might not like is that they had choices and chances in their life and went with them

*...and usually at the expense of a lot of other people (who got stepped on, used and thrown away, etc.). Are you insinuating I'm jealous I can't be an exploitative #######? If so, think again pal.

P.P.S: And here's another thing to consider: If all these millionaires really "care so much" about space exploration and moving humankind upwards and outwards (your claim), why aren't they shelling out their own $$$ to help cash-strapped missions like BepiColombo? Hmmmmm? There are other examples where their monetary contributions could aid and assist space- and astronomy-related programs and missions. Why don't they? If they care so much, that is.

It's not just what a person does, it's also what they -don't do-, which indicates their motives. Duh.

::EDIT:: Here you go: From spaceref.com's "Mercury Today" -- BepiColombo:

Mercury Surface Element (MSE)
The Mercury Surface Element has been cancelled due to budgetary constraints. The description which follows gives the general plan for the MSE at the time of cancellation. MSE is a small (44 kg) lander designed to operate for about one week on the surface of Mercury. The MSE is a 0.9 m diameter disc which is designed to land at a latitude of 85 degrees near the terminator region. Following the release of the MMO, a burn of the 4 kN thruster will put the MSE into a 10 km orbit. Another braking maneuver controlled by gyros/accelerometers and an optical range/range-rate sensor will bring the MSE to zero velocity at an altitude of 120 meters at which point the propulsion unit will be ejected, the airbags inflated, and the module will fall to the surface with a maximum impact velocity of 30 m/s. If the landing occurs in sunlight a thermal protection cover will Since 40% of the terrain at the landing point will be in shadow, primary power is supplied by a 1.7 kWh battery. Scientific data will be stored onboard and relayed via a cross-dipole UHF antenna to either the MPO or MMO at a data rate of 8.7 kb/s providing for a total of 75 Mb over 7 days, assuming 18 contact periods of 480 seconds each. The MSE will carry a 7 kg payload consisting of an imaging system (a descent camera and a surface camera), a heat flow and physical properties package, an alpha X-ray spectrometer, a magnetometer, a seismometer, a soil penetrating device (mole), and a micro-rover.

*Where are the heroic space-loving millionaires when you need them? Why aren't THEY helping to fund this mission, to get MSE back on track? It wouldn't put even a mere scratch in their wallets.

And don't tell me, "Well, this just proves an agency isn't handling their money and resources well -- a millionaire could do better" because last I heard from one of our British New Mars members, Richard Branson can't keep his railway system there in Britain even halfway operable nor on time.

SpaceNut · 2005-03-02 06:16:14

by overworking and underpaying -- i.e., exploiting -- their workers paying Asian

"I would also add other 3rd world nations where"

employees work for 7 cents an hour

"but by far less than an american or for that fact a developed nations people would"

you just described a perfect example of corporate outsourcing that has hit the fields of electronics manufacturing, textiles, shoes and so many more since greed took over the rich to get richer.

If they want to use their money to expand their lives into space onto Mars or Moon or Asteroids or anywhere else, then its their life to do so.

More power to them if they get those same 7 cent workers to be given a chance to go other wise it is still about the rich getting richer

Most millionaires going out into space don't care about moving -humankind- out into space, nor leading, etc. Their aim is more money and more publicity.

Well we have had Denis Tito and a few others that have gone either to mir or the ISS and what have they done for the space cause? ???

Bepi-Colombo space mission? ???

well you got me on that one and had to do a search since I was not in the know of it.

Bepi-Colombo mission, which gets its name from the Italian mathematician Giuseppe 'Bepi' Colombo, will consist of three separate craft, bundled together on one launch platform: the Planetary Orbiter; the Magnetosphere Orbiter; and a Surface Element. A planned ESA cornerstone mission to Mercury.

A New Mission to Mercury according to plans released by the European Space Agency (ESA). On October 13, 2000, ESA officially announced its plans for Bepi Colombo, the first mission to Mercury since 1974.

Current mission under the PLANETARY RESEARCH: YEAR OF MARS section

Another blow to the Russian planetary science was dealt by the European Space Agency, ESA, in the fall of 2003, when its budget constraints forced the agency to slash the Russian lander from the Bepi Colombo mission aimed to explore Mercury. Without monetary compensation from Europe, Russia would not able to fund the lander on its own.

Sounds like it should have been funded for the science that it could have yielded from the small hot planet mercury.

future BepiColombo Launch Date: September 2012 current ESA plans and vehicle design instrumentation.

Palomar · 2005-03-02 06:25:36

BepiColombo space mission
well you got me on that one and had to do a search since I was not in the know of it.

*Hi SpaceNut: Sorry you missed the previous information regarding BepiColombo posted here at New Mars. IIRC, I did create a thread for it in the Unmanned Probes folder. There are very little updates regarding the mission.

Glad you chimed in. :up:

--Cindy

SpaceNut · 2005-03-02 06:32:30

No problem probably just early forgetfullness but if I recall the US has a mission ongoing that I do remember to search for volcanoids.

Would some of this data if shared cause a permanent cancellation of it or just enhance its chances to be correctly funded at last.

Martin_Tristar · 2005-03-02 07:43:27

Spacenut, and ecrasez_l_infame,

What socialist crap, we are in a market / capitalist economy and If you don't like the idea that people come up with ideas and make them happen then just go to your pity corner and cry. I have hope and respect in the goodness of humanity and the nations of the world will place safeguards on space but ultimately the courts will decide.

If we use you statements then this world wouldn't go anywhere. The world has and because of capitalist / market economy that exists in the western economies. Now we are working through other global issues and fixing them including nation debt, global health issues, and eventually we will get to space and that will be resolved as well.

Palomar · 2005-03-02 07:51:04

Spacenut, and ecrasez_l_infame,
What socialist crap, we are in a market / capitalist economy and If you don't like the idea that people come up with ideas and make them happen then just go to your pity corner and cry. I have hope and respect in the goodness of humanity and the nations of the world will place safeguards on space but ultimately the courts will decide.
If we use you statements then this world wouldn't go anywhere. The world has and because of capitalist / market economy that exists in the western economies. Now we are working through other global issues and fixing them including nation debt, global health issues, and eventually we will get to space and that will be resolved as well.

*Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

You didn't *carefully* read much -- if anything -- of what I wrote, did you?

Thanks for the knee-jerk reaction. You aren't paying attention to *specific issues*.

If you don't like the idea that people come up with ideas

WRONG. Don't misrepresent me, Mr. Tristar. I am pro-technology and pro-advancement. I'm just picky about HOW we advance (NOT at the expense of many others and to the enrichment of the few who are merely fad-followers). It's called having integrity and character.

and make them happen then just go to your pity corner and cry.

And you can keep on being hoodwinked, naive about true motives if that's your desire. And continue being a booty smoocher.

--Cindy

P.S.: I also did give SOME (a few) millionaires credit that they might be sincere. You missed that too, didn't you?

If we use you statements then this world wouldn't go anywhere.

And just where IS the world going, now that the rich are getting richer and the poor getting poorer? Hmmmmmm?

Palomar · 2005-03-02 07:55:27

*Hey Martin, did you read the BepiColombo (mission to Mercury) situation?

Why aren't your blessed wonderful millionaire heros helping out, if they're such terrific space enthusiasts? Hmmmmm?

Care to try and answer?

--Cindy

P.S. Your statement in the "Interests" section of your Profile is interesting, Mr. Tristar. I just now checked it. And I quote:

Building the future of Space Enterprises for all humans and not for one country or another.

That sounds socialist to me.

SpaceNut · 2005-03-02 08:37:24

Sorry Martin but you must not have lost a nice paying job($10 to 20/hr) to be force to work for peanuts ($6 or less) lately due to outsourcing.

Yes we can all make our on choices and our own destiny. That is what make freedom and the US great. It is up to those that are rich to not make it harder on the poor to live.

Yes outsourcing of jobs to those poorer nations do raise those people out of the economic of starvation and that is the good of it but it was the greed of the rich to make more money that leads to this condition. Not the help of the poor people or there nation.

Cobra Commander · 2005-03-02 08:47:45

Ineteresting comments all around, all things to think about.

My two cents is this: Every person has their own motives in everyhting they do. Are some millionaires just trying to get some publicity and really don't give a damn about space? Probably. Do some genuinely want to see progress made and are willing to contribute to bring it about? Probably. I can't tell you who is who because I don't know any of them.

But I can say this, if tomorrow I became a millionaire I'd be doing whatever I reasonably could to further the exploration/colonization of Mars. If I could actually profit in the process, better still. You can do something for its own sake and still make money on it.

Sure there are problems with letting a few wealthy people direct our space program, but even with government agencies that's what we have. It's only a question of layers, a board of directors or a Senate committee, either way a handful of rich old white guys say what goes up and what doesn't. Until space travel is cheap enough that anyone can do it, that's the reality.

Which brings us back to the question of how do we get it cheaper? Either a large corporation, run by those millionaires, develops and markets a cheap launch system that they can profit with, or the military develops it and some corporation just takes the basic technology and turns it into a civilian application for profit. Either way, we need a few of these wealthy people, whether private citizens or elected officials, to want it to happen, regardless of their own motives.

RobertDyck · 2005-03-02 08:48:43

During my career I've had times when I was unemployed. There was the time when I worked for a bus manufacturer and the supervisor was in a power struggle with the manager. She had been there years and wanted a promotion to manager but the company chose to hire a manager from outside the company because they wanted someone with Professional Engineer (P.E.) certification. I hadn't realized this at first. She was pregnant and about to take maternity leave, I was asked to learn how to run weekend and month end processing while she was away. There wasn't any question she would retain her job when she got back, I would remain a programmer but keep the computer running in her absence. She refused to show me how to run it; she didn't say no to the manager's face, just was "too busy". I was supposed to watch the second last month end before her leave, then run it while she watched the last month end before she left. Month end processing was run over a weekend and I was locked out of the building. I was blamed for not being there, but the manager made sure I had a key for last month end. She wrote down instructions just 3 days before the last month end run. She explained them to a point, but got defensive and "became busy" again. I ran it but she didn't show up, she was at home so I phoned her before running each step. She kept asking "do you want to run it?"; each time I pointed out we're supposed to run it together. When we got to the point she hadn't explained, she didn't answer her phone. She told the company she rushed to the hospital, but it turned out to be false labour. I find it convenient she had false labour just at the point in the process she refused to explain. I ran the remaining steps from her document, but it failed. The manager blamed me and called her to ask instructions. She said that command procedure wasn't in the production directory but a personal directory. Uh huh! I was originally hired as the system performance expert and turned on logging to track system load. That log file recorded every command and program run, who ran it, which terminal, and time stamped to the nearest 100 nanosecond tick. After she stopped talking to me on the phone she copied 2 files and deleted 2 files, then logged out. Copies of the command procedure in the production directory didn't match the copy on tape from the nightly backup. She deliberately sabotaged the production run. It turned out no one but her knew how to run weekend and month end processing. I also found procedures in the personal directory of previous employees who hadn't worked there in a couple years. They were out of date but automated much of the manual work. She had removed the automation. I showed this evidence to the manager but he refused to even look at it. The vice president wanted someone to fire. I made sure I came in 7 days a week to keep everything running smoothly, and month end processing the following month ran without a hitch. The manager ordered me not to come in to work the weekend. I found another employee working on preparation for weekend processing. Ok, so I was out of the loop that weekend. Monday morning I found that weekend processing failed. The manager blamed me despite the fact he ordered me not to come in to work that weekend. They fired me. The record of employment stated I was laid off due to lack of work, so I could get unemployment insurance benefits. I wasn't able to get work else where. I got suspicious so I asked my step father to phone for a reference, pretending to be an employer about to hire me. They said I was fired with cause.

During that time my UI benefits ran out, savings ran out, I borrowed as much from relatives as they could lend, credit cards max'ed out and chequing account over drafted to the limit. There was one week the only food I had to eat was vegetables grown in my garden and fish caught in the river. I got a job as an adult newspaper carrier so I could eat.

However, when I talked to one personnel agent who found me work in the past, she said she was still finding employees for that bus manufacturer. She said the manager was fired a month after he let me go. During the 13 months after that (14 months after I left) every computer employee was fired or quit, replacements were hired and all of them had either been fired or quit. They had 1 person left in the computer department and he already accepted a job elsewhere. His new employer was a supplier of the bus manufacturer, so the manufacturer demanded the computer guy stay until they found a replacement. That's a 200% personnel turn-over in 14 months. When I told potential employers that in a job interview they said the personnel turn-over tells them there's a real problem at that company, so they didn't hold it against me any more. I was able to get a job soon after that.

After all that would you call me a rich bastard? Today I don't think I'm rich but I have paid all of that debt and paid the mortgage on my house. I still have dreams of starting a company and getting rich.

One company I want to found would build houses that don't require utilities. Use solar power for heat and electricity, well water, and "living machine" advanced sewage processing system. I would also require minimum 25% down payment and maximum 10 year amortization. Law in Canada permits purchasing a house with only 5% down, but if you pay less than 25% down you have to get mortgage insurance. That isn't house insurance; mortgage insurance goes to the bank if they foreclose. The point is that if the owner finds him/herself in the same fix I was, without a job, they can live in that house without worrying about money. Since my house was broken into 4 times in 1992/93, I would make these houses practically impossible to break into. Does that sound like someone trying to "screw over" the public?

I thought the idea of a poor guy from a poor family working hard to get rich was called "The American Dream". Is it bad that I have that dream?

Cobra Commander · 2005-03-02 08:52:44

Spacenut:

Sorry Martin but you must not have lost a nice paying job($10 to 20/hr) to be force to work for peanuts ($6 or less) lately due to outsourcing.

And automation, changing markets and outright obsolescence of certain fields. Outsourcing is not the prime cause of economic woes.

Yes outsourcing of jobs to those poorer nations do raise those people out of the economic of starvation and that is the good of it but it was the greed of the rich to make more money that leads to this condition.

It also lowers prices for consumers here. Why do companies send manufacturing work to China? It's cheap. Why to people buy goods from China? They're cheap. For everyone that loses, someone gains.

RobertDyck:

I thought the idea of a poor guy from a poor family working hard to get rich was called "The American Dream". Is it bad that I have that dream?

Good posts, and I agree with you. Not everyone with money is a slavedriving swine born into it.

Now if I could get one of those houses you describe and finally succeed in killing the property tax, I wouldn't have to worry about much at all.

Edited By Cobra Commander on 1109775618

Palomar · 2005-03-02 09:49:16

After all that would you call me a rich bastard?
I thought the idea of a poor guy from a poor family working hard to get rich was called "The American Dream". Is it bad that I have that dream?

*::sigh::

Discussions like these seem so POINTLESS.

No one's calling you anything, Robert. Sorry you take it so personally. (Besides, you're Canadian; I wasn't aware you'd be concerned about "The -American- Dream." I'm an American and I don't buy into all the hoopla surrounding it).

And by the way, this thread -isn't- about "The American Dream."

I think I've already adequately outlined my reasons for the way I think on this issue.

My primary objection has to do with millionaires as fad followers and who (mostly) are not interested in the future of manned space exploration and settlement for humankind in general.

I'm also irked at all the so-called Mars enthusiasts who are allowing themselves to get sidetracked by Lunar colony considerations and space hotels.

Who here still wants to see Mars Direct or Aurora or something similar actually occur in your lifetime -- going to Mars? Remember that?

Too many space enthusiasts are becoming too scattered, IMO. It's time to focus and regroup. You know, on MARS?

Robert, did you see my question regarding BepiColombo? I'm questioning motives and intentions. Why aren't any wealthy space enthusiasts (alleged) helping THAT financially?

I'll be the first to say I don't give a damn about Lunar colonies or space hotels. I want to see Mars Direct occur in my lifetime. You people behave as though we can have it all, now, in our lifetimes. Get real. ::shakes head::

There is a good chance my own financial situation could improve here soon. I would hope if it's substantial enough I'd be willing to put my money where my mouth is and help out missions (such as BepiColombo -- how many more times will people here ignore that issue?) financially. In fact, I'm -certain- I would because I've been interested in this stuff all of my life, unlike the bandwagon-hopping fad-followers. Fads tend to die down, don't they? Fads are fickle. I'm only interested in folks devoted to and serious about these issues, on an INclusion basis.

Again: It's not just what people DO, it's also what they DON'T DO which better reveals their motives.

Most of these millionaires aren't sincere, they aren't going to get us anywhere (except watching them circling round and round in LEO for decades more, world without end, amen, amen...big deal), they're following a fad (all of a sudden ALL of these millionaires flocking to the rockets).

Now please, no one actually READ this and pay attention to what I'm saying. Thanks.

--Cindy

Cobra Commander · 2005-03-02 10:07:02

<sighs>

Robert, did you see my question regarding BepiColombo? I'm questioning motives and intentions. Why aren't any wealthy space enthusiasts (alleged) helping THAT financially?

I'll chime in again I suppose. Were I a multi-millionaire I'd put money into various projects if they furthered my goal of Mars colonization. In such case, I may very well not fund a probe to Mercury yet still be completely sincere about space exploration in general. It all depends on how much that mission would cost versus how much I have versus how much what I really want is going to cost. I can't speak for anyone else, but I have to at least concede the possibility that others are thinking along the same lines.

I'll be the first to say I don't give a damn about Lunar colonies or space hotels. I want to see Mars Direct occur in my lifetime. You people behave as though we can have it all, now, in our lifetimes. Get real. ::shakes head::

I don't particularly care about the Moon either, space hotels even less; but we can have all these things. Mars should be a government-funded mission initially (though not necessarily exclusively and probably not pure Mars Direct). Unless of course some private entity raises the funds to go themselves, then I won't stand in their way. As for the Moon, while I don't fully agree that we should do it first there are some benefits to it. People need to see progress to stay interested, the Moon can be a step, a marketing gimmick in a sense. "Woohoo, we landed on the Moon, ain't it cool. Give us more money."

As for space hotels, they're a separate issue. If a private firm can do it I wish them the best of luck. It need not have any negative bearing on Mars whatsoever.

In the end it isn't about Mars, but moving into space in general. Mars is the next big step, but it need not be a fixation to the exclusion of all else. Especially things that don't interefere with that goal.

Palomar · 2005-03-02 10:17:58

Mars is the next big step, but it need not be a fixation to the exclusion of all else.

*I see little evidence that it's a fixation to the exclusion of all else. Quite the contrary. I'm not implying it -should be- a fixation to the exclusion of all else (that would be unhealthy, ultimately)...but what -little- focus it (mission to Mars) does get seems to be continually slipping in favor of sideshows.

Especially things that don't interefere with that goal.

There will be interference with this goal, though, if enough interest is diverted away from it -- especially if the trend continues.

I've said my peace. You (who seems to generally DISagree with me on the matter) and two other people are the only ones who seem to actually be reading my posts.

I've wasted enough time, otherwise. Except to say: The folks nowadays all "hurrah" for the fad-followers will be the first to complain before they die that they never saw a manned expedition land on Mars. And they'll wonder how THAT happened.

--Cindy

SpaceNut · 2005-03-02 11:31:07

RobertDyck:
I too also went though a very hard time with unemployment and trying to keep the family that I have safe thoughout that time on as little as $331 the first time for a period of a year to then only recieving $188 for a week for 9 months before I finally had a break of luck. It was not easy with the large family of 6 kids, with my wife who is not able to work and I on this level of income. This was all due to the company selling its manufacturing to an asian corporation that could not make it run profitably and has since closed its doors here and move back over sea's with the business.

Personally I would volunteer my free time to aid in build of the space vehicles or probes that we would use in place of providing cash since I am still not rich, even though we are doing all so much better now.

Providing more places to go even if it is for those Fad followers is not all that bad if the end goals are still Mars and a balanced approach to flights to all are controlled not by cost but by what can be learned or accomplished.

Martin_Tristar · 2005-03-02 15:30:59

We have all went through times of hardship, survived and got stronger from the experience. I have designed a piece of software and currently getting developed for a billion dollar global market. I don't think I will get multiple millions out of it, but it will provide a launch platform for other ideas that will lead me to create Space infrastructure in the long term for humanity into space.

We need alot of infrastructure for humanity into space, I am not talking about the global tourists ( Americans, Russians, and chinese astronauts ) This is the use of multiple millions or even billions of dollars made from companies owned by me not my bank account. My one goal is creating a viable colony on Moon and Mars privately held ( even die trying )and provide the infrastructure to expand a space enterprise industrial sector for the next generation of space colonists to expand forth.

I see (correcting from everyone) most people talking about tourist trips to Moon and Mars, but not a human settlement and transport network across our solar system.

Cobra Commander · 2005-03-02 15:35:46

I see everyone talking about tourist trips to Moon and Mars, but not a human settlement and transport network across our solar system.

With the exception of here I presume, where human settlement and its attendent infrastructure are frequently at the heart of discussion.

Grypd · 2005-03-02 17:03:56

Sure there are problems with letting a few wealthy people direct our space program, but even with government agencies that's what we have. It's only a question of layers, a board of directors or a Senate committee, either way a handful of rich old white guys say what goes up and what doesn't. Until space travel is cheap enough that anyone can do it, that's the reality.

In real life we have to accept that it is wealthy people who control the goverment and it is through there sponsorship and pressure groups that beats NASA's drum.

I really wish it it was different but people seem to only vote in multi millionaires nowadays. And like calls to like.

I've said my peace.

Cindy I understand your frustration but we do actually read the posts and it was only to now that I could reply. And though we thought of the Astronauts as people with the "right stuff" they where not the only hero's. There where a lot of people that pushed the space program and everybody was a hero then from the mission control to the guy who welded the smallest component.

We have lost this aura that space had and it really is a case of so what done that. In fact we fell out of interest it was a fad. If sending millionaires to space will pay for the likes of me as commen as muck to actually get up there and do real work then im all for it.

RobertDyck · 2005-03-02 18:40:09

Cindy, you don't understand my point. Any government agency will have limited funds, and be at the whim of the politician of the day. It's hard to adhere to a decade+ plan when political leaders change every 4 years. NASA has also had to spread its contracts to fulfill pork barrel demands. Why are the launch site, mission control, astronaut training, and engine test at different locations? They shouldn't be. We also have politicians who don't want to commit to a sane plan.

Yea, I remember watching the space race from the last couple missions of Mercury, through Gemini and all of Apollo. When I was 7 I decided I want to be a rocket scientist, to design spaceships. Today we call that aerospace engineer. But everyone convinced me I didn't have a hope of ever doing that. So I decided to invent something great and start my own company so I could be an aerospace contractor; then I could design spaceships. When I was 15 at career day I talked to representatives of each field I was interested in. There wasn't anyone representing aerospace engineering. The physicist said there wasn't any work for a research physicist; your only hope was to be a university professor teaching physics. I questioned who I would teach to if the only work for graduates was to teach. It didn't matter after he said there weren't any job openings in the country at that time for a physics professor. However, the computer department representatives from university and community college said they had employers lining up to hire graduates; they had 3 jobs for every graduate. So I went into computers. My plan was to found a computer company, build PCs until that market shook down to just a few giant companies, then shift into computer software until that was dominated, then I should be a millionaire so I could found an aerospace company. I focused entirely on computers ignoring everything else. However, my partner proved unable to stick with any project longer than a month, and when I tried to commit him to a single design of anything he insisted on changing it. I was self-employed for a while but found it difficult on my own. In the late 1970s I had predicted a major space opportunity would open just after the turn of the millennium, and here it is right on time, but I'm not a millionaire. I'm trying anyway; after all, an opportunity like CEV might not come again and I'm not getting any younger.

Meanwhile I see companies like Boeing and Northrup-Grumman proposing expendable capsules and a system that couldn't possibly provide a sustained presence on Mars, much less settlement. I doubt their designs could get to Mars at all. So if I sit back and let someone else do it, they'll screw it up.

But what if NASA/congress chooses to follow a short-term redo of Apollo? What's the backup plan? I do have a plan to get to Mars privately. The idea of asteroid mining is to raise funds to expand space operations while providing low cost fuel and materials for in-space construction. Every time I look at it there's no way to transport settlers to Mars affordably if materials for the ship have to be sent from Earth. It has to be build from in-space materials. So let precious metals and fuel for military and communication satellites pay for establishing space mines. Then use those mines to build a commercial settler transport. This is for average citizens to emigrate to Mars, not joy rides for the rich. If the rich help pay for it, then more power to them. I don't intend to get in the business of orbital tourism, but if an orbital hotel operation wants to buy materials from me then I would certainly take their money. A ticket for a single person to Mars wouldn't be cheap but it wouldn't be millions. I see the goal being industrialization of space; Mars is just the best location for human settlement.

You see, for me space is the goal. It's not just a fad and it's not recent. I've intended to do this since 1969.

By the way, even if I was a millionaire already I wouldn't donate money to someone else's project. I would consider being a contractor for a Mercury mission, but I won't just give away money for someone else to do it.

As for the Moon, we need to unify the space advocacy community and George W.'s current focus is the Moon. A space contractor has to take contracts where the money is. If a contract for Moon hardware builds my company to provide resources to get to Mars, then I'll do that. In the process I'll try to focus the project to be a stepping stone to Mars.

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