Perchlorate

Palomar · 2005-02-24 13:48:24

http://www.livescience.com/humanbiology … html]Toxic component of rocket fuel and fireworks

*...found in breast milk of women in 18 states, and also in store-bought milk around the nation.

Perchlorate has also been found on lettuce, in cow's milk (47 samples in 11 states) and in drinking water (11 million residents). The problem may be worse than initially thought.

The headline is a bit alarmist, IMO; they later point out in the text that perchlorate "occurs naturally."

Also in January, a study out of Russia claimed children near Kazakhstan's Baikonur Cosmodrome, where rockets are launched, are twice as likely to require medical attention as other children in the region.

--Cindy

SpaceNut · 2005-02-24 14:39:21

I have heard of this in Russia but this is the first I have heard of this occuring here in the USA. Thanks for posting this.

Palomar · 2005-02-24 15:08:12

I have heard of this in Russia but this is the first I have heard of this occuring here in the USA. Thanks for posting this.

*Hi SpaceNut: No problem. I've heard of at least one similar circumstance. Can't help wondering how much of this (in the U.S.) is via natural process versus otherwise. Probably more the latter.

--Cindy

SpaceNut · 2005-02-24 21:39:32

I was wondering if there is any corelation to places where solid boosters are made and tested? I see that Florida is one of those states with high levels. I believe there are also plants in Utah as well, are there others?

Ammonium perchlorate

Palomar · 2005-02-25 06:38:28

I was wondering if there is any corelation to places where solid boosters are made and tested? I see that Florida is one of those states with high levels. I believe there are also plants in Utah as well, are there others?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonium_p … e]Ammonium perchlorate

*Good questions. Actually, I wonder if livescience.com isn't a bit on the anti-space exploration side. I don't know how much perchlorate goes into your "average" rocket fuel, nor how much rocket fuel we've got stored/"lying around" on average nor how much perchlorate occurs naturally or is present in fireworks.

Could Google for some info, but I'm short on time. Might do that later.

Anywho -- I'm finding it difficult to anticipate that a lot of the perchlorate issue is derived from rocket fuel (here in the U.S. anyway); it's not like rocket fuel is regular gasoline, i.e. it's available or present at many sites around a city like gasoline stations.

Fireworks are a lot more readily available -- and at least in my area, year-round (though there are laws prohibiting their being fired within city limits).

Am getting out of my league here. But the article seems focused on ROCKET FUEL as being the cause of this -- it's part of the headline; that seems to have a political purpose.

--Cindy

C M Edwards · 2005-02-25 13:34:04

... I'm finding it difficult to anticipate that a lot of the perchlorate issue is derived from rocket fuel (here in the U.S. anyway); it's not like rocket fuel is regular gasoline, i.e. it's available or present at many sites around a city like gasoline stations.
Fireworks are a lot more readily available -- and at least in my area, year-round (though there are laws prohibiting their being fired within city limits).
Am getting out of my league here. But the article seems focused on ROCKET FUEL as being the cause of this -- it's part of the headline; that seems to have a political purpose.
--Cindy

It's not paranoia if they're really after you.

Perchlorate is a component of perchlorates (ammonium perchlorates, sodium perchlorates, potassium perchlorates, etc.), which are used in the majority of low-grade explosives and pyrotechnics in the world. Household matches, fireworks, road flares, solid-fuel rocket-propelled weaponry of all types, model rockets, and the space shuttle all use some sort of perchlorate. Because they make such good oxidizers, chemicals of this type are also used as industrial reagents and cleaning agents, though not on anywhere near the same scale as their use in rocketry.

The single largest use of perchlorates - of any type, bar none - is as rocket fuel. The largest and most widespread industrial use is in military ordinance, not space travel. However, the single largest mass of perchlorates reacted in any system in the world is estimated to be the Space Shuttle's SRB's.

It's a bit like nuclear material here in the states - it's pretty much ubiquitous, with dozens of applications. If you own a smoke detector (and you should), you've got a little piece of nuclear science right in your bedroom. Little bits of nuclear material are everywhere. But the biggest, most dangerous masses of it are found in military and aerospace applications.

Perchlorates are the same way.

GCNRevenger · 2005-02-25 13:57:02

"Also in January, a study out of Russia claimed children near Kazakhstan's Baikonur Cosmodrome, where rockets are launched, are twice as likely to require medical attention as other children in the region."

Perhaps if the LiveScience people were the least bit capable of critical investigation or possesing simple chemical literacy as "scientific journalists" should, perhaps they would not have overlooked an important fact when including this study.

Russian rockets don't use Perchlorates

Russian rockets use LOX/Kerosene mainly and LOX/LH2 for future upper stages, but the problem is Proton: Proton uses huge amounts of the highly toxic hypergolic brew of Unsymmetric Dimethyl Hydrazine, which can cause such illnesses, and Nitrogen Tetraoxide which is corrosive but not especially toxic otherwise. I think that only Russia's Proton and some Chinese rockets still use this dangerous combination.

I don't know if we ought to chalk this one up to "ewww chemicals!" environmental insanity or simply incompetance. Maybe both.

Palomar · 2005-02-25 14:03:25

"Also in January, a study out of Russia claimed children near Kazakhstan's Baikonur Cosmodrome, where rockets are launched, are twice as likely to require medical attention as other children in the region."
Perhaps if the LiveScience people were the least bit capable of critical investigation or possesing simple chemical literacy as "scientific journalists" should, perhaps they would not have overlooked an important fact when including this study.
Russian rockets don't use Perchlorates
Russian rockets use LOX/Kerosene mainly and LOX/LH2 for future upper stages, but the problem is Proton: Proton uses huge amounts of the highly toxic hypergolic brew of Unsymmetric Dimethyl Hydrazine, which can cause such illnesses, and Nitrogen Tetraoxide which is corrosive but not especially toxic otherwise. I think that only Russia's Proton and some Chinese rockets still use this dangerous combination.
I don't know if we ought to chalk this one up to "ewww chemicals!" environmental insanity or simply incompetance. Maybe both.

*Hmmmmm. I wouldn't know. Spaceref.com has a similar article for reading at their web site; however it -doesnt]http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=16238]-doesn't- mention Russian rocketry at all.

Guess they're more on the ball than the livescience folks?

But I'm in no position to criticize, just comparing.

--Cindy

ERRORIST · 2005-02-25 17:09:23

This is great news as long as we have women we should never run out of rocket fuel.

SpaceNut · 2005-06-06 10:21:13

Toxic rocket may pose marine threat

A U.S. booster rocket that splashed down off Canada's East Coast in April was carrying up to 2.25 tonnes of highly toxic chemicals, says a newly released report.
The leftover liquid fuel — Aerozine-50 — was inside the first stage of a Titan IV B-30 rocket that was launched from Florida on April 29.
The first stage contained between 900 and 2,250 kilograms of highly poisonous chemicals when it hit the water, says a report obtained under the Access to Information Act.
“It is estimated that the fuel will remain in the two tanks when it hits the water and sinks to the sea floor,” says a draft strategic contingency plan from Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness Canada.
The two chemicals in the leftover fuel — dimethylhydrazine and nitrogen dioxide — are poisonous and corrosive. Merely breathing the vapours can cause death, say documents included with the plan.
Even heavy firefighting suits cannot protect against the toxic effects. Both chemicals dissolve in water, with the latter forming toxic nitric acid. Dimethylhydrazine initially floats on the water and produces toxic vapours on contact with air.

SpaceNut · 2019-02-25 18:23:52

short topic to fix when searching for perchlorate

GW Johnson · 2019-02-26 09:14:13

I spent nearly 20 years working in a plant with ammonium perchlorate propellants. The perchlorate isn't that big a threat, because what gets loose is so dilute. It was the di-isocyanate curatives. That odor would give you 4 hour headache. Most of my colleagues who spent the whole work week on the propellant processing lines have died of one or the other kind of internal cancer.

GW

tahanson43206 · 2019-02-26 10:42:14

As a follow up to the discussion on Perchlorate recently restarted by Terraformer ...

https://www.quora.com/Is-there-any-way- … il-on-Mars

This Quora article describes a biological method of treating Martian regolith to extract Oxygen and Chlorine and (ultimately) to deliver human usable soil.

The article is on the speculative side, but it might fit into the discussion here.

Note ... I have not searched for previous publication of these ideas on NewMars forum.

It is possible SpaceNut, you may find previous work, which (I would think) would be of interest to newer members.

(th)

Void · 2019-02-26 17:21:05

I like the information. Still I am not feeling fully aware of how this chemistry works.

The bacteria, get their energy by just splitting these molecules. I know that Chlorine is more reactive than Oxygen, but Hmmm... I believe the information. It is good that useful chemicals can result from biology, but don't you have to provide the microbes a chemical other than Perchlorate? Or is this Perchlorate chemical so loaded with energy like Uranium, that splitting it yields energy to the microbes.

I feel I don't understand sufficiently.

Done.

SpaceNut · 2019-02-26 21:04:42

We have done this before but we can do it again in that we have identified one of the many perchlorate for a chemical compound containing the perchlorate ion, ClO4.
Here are the topics search for Perchlorate
I do recall the substitue for Oxygen in some life identified as using sulfur but one using Cl why not...

So the first issue will be for the water processing from soils containing Perchlorates..
https://www.epa.gov/dwstandardsregulati … king-water

With some compounds being hazardous to man
https://www.dtsc.ca.gov/HazardousWaste/Perchlorate/

https://www.epa.gov/fedfac/technical-fa … erchlorate

Danger of food
https://www.fda.gov/Food/FoodborneIllne … 077572.htm

There are good Perchlorates:
Lithium perchlorate is also used as an electrolyte in lithium-ion batteries .
Other alternative electrolytes such as lithium hexafluorophosphate or lithium tetrafluoroborate.

Void · 2019-02-26 21:20:44

I will continue.
Since I had to, I searched for some answers myself. The query was "Perchlorate reducing bacteria".
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1169015/
Quote:

Abstract
Perchlorate contamination is a concern because of the increasing frequency of its detection in soils and groundwater and its presumed inhibitory effect on human thyroid hormone production. Although significant perchlorate contamination occurs in the vadose (unsaturated) zone, little is known about perchlorate biodegradation potential by indigenous microorganisms in these soils. We measured the effects of electron donor (acetate and hydrogen) and nitrate addition on perchlorate reduction rates and microbial community composition in microcosm incubations of vadose soil. Acetate and hydrogen addition enhanced perchlorate reduction, and a longer lag period was observed for hydrogen (41 days) than for acetate (14 days). Initially, nitrate suppressed perchlorate reduction, but once perchlorate started to be degraded, the process was stimulated by nitrate. Changes in the bacterial community composition were observed in microcosms enriched with perchlorate and either acetate or hydrogen. Denaturing gradient gel electrophoresis analysis and partial sequencing of 16S rRNA genes recovered from these microcosms indicated that formerly reported perchlorate-reducing bacteria were present in the soil and that microbial community compositions were different between acetate- and hydrogen-amended microcosms. These results indicate that there is potential for perchlorate bioremediation by native microbial communities in vadose soil.

So, I am not entirely confused anymore. The bacteria could use Hydrogen as food, and Perchlorate as the other end of the energy route.

Quote:

All previously isolated perchlorate-reducing bacteria belong to Proteobacteria (8, 12, 18, 21, 26, 27, 36, 37, 40). In earlier studies, most isolates are members of Dechloromonas and Dechlorosoma in the β-Proteobacteria (8, 12, 21, 22, 40). Many perchlorate-reducing Azospirillum spp., a group of α-Proteobacteria, have also been isolated recently (37). Acetate is an electron donor commonly used to isolate perchlorate-reducing bacteria. Strains of Dechloromonas spp. and Dechlorosoma spp. can use lactate, and strains of Dechlorosoma spp. can use ethanol as an electron donor (12, 21). On the other hand, autotrophic Dechloromonas sp. strain HZ uses hydrogen as an electron donor (40). All perchlorate-reducing isolates are facultative anaerobic or microaerobic, and most, with the exception of three Dechloromonas strains, can use nitrate as an electron acceptor (8, 12, 18, 21, 26, 36).

As I am not a chemist or biologist, I am currently of the opinion that you have to provide the critters food, in this case I prefer Hydrogen, and the microbes do indeed breath Perchlorate, not use it as food. But they are anaerobic or microaerobic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microaerophile

Chlorate?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorate A strong Oxidizer I guess.
So the bacteria previously mentioned do not consume either the Chlorate or Oxygen released. I believe the Chlorate will stay in solution as a salt. Oxygen might more easily emerge from the proses which is a very nice potential that tahanson43206 identified previously in recent posting(s).

So what about breathing Chlorate? That is bacteria doing it. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC92900/
Quote:

These studies provide evidence that facultative microorganisms with the capability for perchlorate and chlorate respiration exist, that not all chlorate-respiring microorganisms are capable of anoxic growth on perchlorate, and that isolates have dissimilar growth kinetics using different electron donors and acceptors.

So, I take that as a yes.

tahanson43206, is it possible you will consider response to the following speculation?

I feel that due to your posts stimulation of thinking, and the materials now available it is reasonable to say that Perchlorate is a thing that some bacteria can breath. Chlorate is also a thing that some microbes can breath. Your post suggested getting Oxygen from the process for people to breath.

What we then need from the environment for the microbes is food. Hydrogen may do.

In a school science experiment, a teacher showed how you can immerse steel wool into water, and place a inverted beaker above it and generate Hydrogen from rust.

I have had my eyes on the dune materials. They are of basalt and of a very fine grain. I am hoping that they can rust in water, and produce Hydrogen as food for microbes.

Of course you would then need a process machine of substantial size for that to become of a scale significantly valuable.

If you query for "Antarctic Dry Valley Lakes" you will get an idea of one such type of containment for such a process.

It seems to me that there has been an effort to obscure this information as I think the people looking for life on Mars do not want at all that we should manufacture a similar device on Mars and inhabit it with Earth microbes.

In part I am actually reasonably supportive of their quest for Martian life, but not if it is in the quest of trying to invalidate religious belief on this planet. I fear that for some the agenda it to facilitate a Marxist/Atheist Order of Power. And this would be at its root an immoral quest to possess the human race as servants, and to possess the Earth.

I am actually more and more mutating into a non-Mars entity. I think that Luna and the moons of Mars have great potential for humanity. But these people I think are out there don't want a great potential for humanity. They want to eat us for dinner in essence. Not literally, but as a process of consuming our efforts for there purposes which do not please me very much.

I still support the quest for Mars, but will listen to reason on the issue of potential life on Mars and what it's importance could be.

Anyway Dry Valley Lakes are actually solar ponds with ice coverings. They have different environments but all tend to be salty.

Some are very cold say ~-10 deg? water with an ice covering.

Some have room temperature water towards their bottoms. Typically the bottom water is anoxic, and the top water has Oxygen. This is due to photo organisms which grow under the ice.

So, I consider some variation of such a thing as a device which could be constructed on Mars to be the volume where Perchlorates and perhaps dune materials could be reacted in order to provide for some human needs.

And really a belief in God can easily weather the discovery of alien life. I am just annoyed at what I think is obstruction deliberately created because they believe that they may be able to invalidate God and religion.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2019-02-26 22:09:05)

tahanson43206 · 2019-02-26 23:09:53

For Void,

Thank you for the research you have done, and for your study of the article you found.

Void wrote:

I will continue.
Since I had to, I searched for some answers myself. The query was "Perchlorate reducing bacteria".
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1169015/
tahanson43206, is it possible you will consider response to the following speculation?
I feel that due to your posts stimulation of thinking, and the materials now available it is reasonable to say that Perchlorate is a thing that some bacteria can breath. Chlorate is also a thing that some microbes can breath. Your post suggested getting Oxygen from the process for people to breath.
Done.

You have provided a homework assignment, which I shall undertake but may dawdle a bit.

As a reminder, Terraformer restarted this topic, with his discovery of a thought provoking blog about the 5 reasons NOT to try to live on Mars.

Hopefully, the NewMars forum will attract members who have the advanced knowledge and skills to complement those already present, as we have seen in discussion of engineering, physics, chemistry and other fields.

I met a student at a local university recently, who replied to my courtesy inquiry about her major that it was biochemistry. The use of specialized bacteria to harvest oxygen from perchlorate on Mars would seem (to me at least) to fit right into that field. It would be good to have students of that and many other disciplines participating in the forum. Perhaps that may happen, but there are many other ways they can spend their time.

***
In case kbd512 happens to catch this post, I'd like to offer thanks for the discussion of failure of foam applied to the shuttle external tank, and for the link to the remarkable blog post about Discovery by the NASA manager Wayne Hale.

(th)

elderflower · 2019-02-27 04:20:25

Do not conflate Marxism with Religion. Both are damaging ideologies in my view, but one requires belief in the supernatural and the other does not. Atheists do not believe in the supernatural, but that doesn't exclude belief in a Marxist philosophy or any other non-supernatural -ism.

Void · 2019-02-27 16:34:45

Elderflower, I understand what you are indicating.

tahanson43206, Yes Terraformer is a wonderful member. I would like to see more of Terraformer's works.

SpaceNut · 2019-02-27 20:10:00

We have seen on earth the deep sea vents where bacteria call it home feeding off from the methane and other energy sources that they produce.
While the surface of mars may be barren its the sub surface that could still have protected life which could be using the Perchlorate for its food energy and giving off methane as respiration of life.
NASA Study Reproduces Origins of Life on Ocean Floor

NASA-funded research creates DNA-like molecule to aid search for alien life

Complete world map of tree diversity

SpaceNut · 2020-08-20 18:47:15

recent topic chemistry of mars in which using water and acids to mine oxygen and hydrogen....

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#1 2005-02-24 13:48:24

Re: Perchlorate

#2 2005-02-24 14:39:21

Re: Perchlorate

#3 2005-02-24 15:08:12

Re: Perchlorate

#4 2005-02-24 21:39:32

Re: Perchlorate

#5 2005-02-25 06:38:28

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#6 2005-02-25 13:34:04

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#7 2005-02-25 13:57:02

Re: Perchlorate

#8 2005-02-25 14:03:25

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#9 2005-02-25 17:09:23

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#10 2005-06-06 10:21:13

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#11 2019-02-25 18:23:52

Re: Perchlorate

#12 2019-02-26 09:14:13

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#13 2019-02-26 10:42:14

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#14 2019-02-26 17:21:05

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#15 2019-02-26 21:04:42

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#16 2019-02-26 21:20:44

Re: Perchlorate

#17 2019-02-26 23:09:53

Re: Perchlorate

#18 2019-02-27 04:20:25

Re: Perchlorate

#19 2019-02-27 16:34:45

Re: Perchlorate

#20 2019-02-27 20:10:00

Re: Perchlorate

#21 2020-08-20 18:47:15

Re: Perchlorate

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