Cassini-Huygens III - Continued from previous

Palomar · 2005-01-21 05:49:04

One thing thats worth pointing out is the work that has gone on since the data came back to Earth. The number of gripe threads I've seen about the pictures on various sites around the net (and New Mars) when you watch the press conference and see the experiments they've been conducting since the data came in - it's only a week after all - is really quite astounding. Just think about it, you've spent years and years developing and building a probe, you see it successfully complete its mission - I'd still be drunk from partying, but no, they try and recreate the effects they've seen so far in their lab to match up what they know with what data they have - some people have dedication to a cause thats all I can say, and hats off to them for doing it.
Graeme

*Yes indeed. :up: I had a hard time turning off the computer last Friday night, lol. If I were an actual scientist working on these missions, I can imagine easily working 18 to 20 hours straight and having to be literally pulled away...

This is as splendid and gratifying a mission as any of the other current missions "out there."

--Cindy

Yang Liwei Rocket · 2005-01-21 05:53:58

Have you seen this pic
http://ciclops.lpl.arizona.edu/media/dr … 1398_1.jpg
very strange indeed, a view of Saturn - north polar region

More on the Cassini Huygens Lander

DISR
Surface ridge around 100m tall
Channels are evidence of rain
Dark material are photochemical smog deposits
Ridges made of frozen hard water ice
Some evidence for fluid flow in the form of methane
Evidence for Earth like processes such as precipitation, but with different materials
Possibility of rainfall relatively recently
GCMS
Gases like Argon are not present on Titan
Methane present because of the low temperature
Oxygen is tied up in frozen water preventing formation of carbon dioxide
Methane atmosphere is a very primative atmosphere, comparably to the Earth in its very early history
Methane must condense on the surface due to the low temperatures
Must be a methane source on Titan to keep replenishing the atmosphere
In upper atmosphere nitrogen is dominant gas and in lower atmosphere methane is present in higher abundances (this change is similar to the change in water vapour in the Earth's atmosphere)
On surface nitrogen levels remained constant
Methane levels changes over time on the surface implying a release of methane. The origin is probably liquid methane located just below the surface....

http://sci.esa.int/science-e/www/object … ctid=36396

details on the observations and data from other instruments

Palomar · 2005-01-21 06:14:13

*Excellent info, YL Rocket.

--"Ridges made of frozen hard water ice...Oxygen is tied up in frozen water preventing formation of carbon dioxide"--

Wow...maybe I missed something along that line because last I recall reading, they didn't think water was present on Titan (?) :hm: Might be my memory.

--"Dark material are photochemical smog deposits"--

Now that sounds nifty. Would like to know more about that.

--"In upper atmosphere nitrogen is dominant gas and in lower atmosphere methane is present in higher abundances (this change is similar to the change in water vapour in the Earth's atmosphere)...

Methane levels changes over time on the surface implying a release of methane. The origin is probably liquid methane located just below the surface...."--

Like a table? A table of methane beneath the surface (similar to a "table of water" on Earth)?

--"Channels are evidence of rain"--

I only want to see you laughing in the methane rain?
:;):

--Cindy

::EDIT:: Titan rover possibility mentioned previously in this thread; found this at space.com:

"We can now dream seriously of sending rovers to Titan," said Huygens project manager Jean-Pierre Lebreton of the European Space Agency (ESA). "All we need is the money."

{{sigh}} Wish I could fund it myself!

Little sunlight penetrates the dense hydrocarbon atmosphere, a fact that was only partly offset by Huygens' 20-watt lamp, which enabled the probe to deliver relatively clear pictures even on the surface. Tomasko described the process as "taking pictures of an asphalt parking lot at dusk."

With no Huygens revisits currently scheduled, it will be at least a decade before Huygens' data is complemented by another descent probe or lander.

Thank goodness we still have a handful (at least) of Cassini flybys as well. :up:

http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/ti … ml]Article

Palomar · 2005-01-21 09:03:38

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u … ce_1]Titan wind experiment botched -- human error

*Has been referred to previously in the thread (the channel A situation); here's more details. Poor David Atkinson and his team (not their fault)...18 years invested on his part alone.

Hopefully info can still be salvaged. The link YL Rocket provided above has this tidbit:

VLBI observations have returned the data that was lost on channel A, although it will take some months to analyse

xfingers crossedx

--Cindy

Palomar · 2005-01-21 13:52:31

http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=15178]A picture really is worth 1000 words.

*Love shots like this. :up: Taken just the 18th of this month. Even the non-color pics of Saturn and its entourage are beautiful (can't say that about any other region of the Solar System really).

--Cindy

P.S.: Check out those three bright specks towards the lower right-hand side of the pic. No comment is made about them. ??? Maybe image artifact? If they were other moons, the caption would have mentioned them. Hmmmmm. Says image hasn't been validated or calibrated.

LtlPhysics · 2005-01-21 17:40:26

This is more of the same;

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6851959/]ht … d/6851959/

MSNBC credits Associated Press;

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/T/ … ...DEFAULT

MSNBC has more links, so I'm going there.

There is new information every day. Titan deserves its own orbiter and balloons/rovers/floaters. Now that ESA has learned the importance of turning their instruments 'on' perhaps the US and Europeans could get together, share the expense, and get it done, or at least, on its way during the next decade. No doubt the engineers already have their designs.

The conclusion that Titan has methane in its atmosphere is nothing new. As children many of us read all of the science and science fiction books the school library had to offer. Donald A. Wollheim had written several science fiction books for kids, that is, the main character was a teenager. One of the teens had his own jet plane on Titan, using the moons' atmosphere and some oxygen for fuel. We all thought that was pretty cool. Kids.

Palomar · 2005-01-21 19:28:18

--"Dark material are photochemical smog deposits"--
Now that sounds nifty. Would like to know more about that.

*Found an article which fleshes a few points out a bit more:

Titan's soil appears to consist at least in part of precipitated deposits of the organic haze that shrouds the planet. This dark material settles out of the atmosphere..... Instead of dirt, Titan has hydrocarbon particles settling out of the atmosphere

Then mentions that material being washed down higher elevations by methane rain.

I don't recall having yet read this (but there's been so much to absorb) -- except as speculation PRE-descent:

New, stunning evidence based on finding atmospheric argon 40 indicates that Titan has experienced volcanic activity generating not lava, as on Earth, but water ice and ammonia.

But then I recalled this item from YL Rocket's post, quoting another science source:

Gases like Argon are not present on Titan

??? Will Google for whatever difference there may be between argon 40 and Argon (I'm no chemistry whiz and find it curious that one is capitalized in a report while another is not...). More later.

--Cindy

P.S.: Article mentions "the wicking of liquids from below towards the surface" (in relation to the consistency of material beneath the surface crust). Will wikipedia or Google for "wicking" of liquids; that's a new phrase to me (although I think I get the gist of it...). Also mentions clouds forming. :up:

http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.htm … 63]Article

Palomar · 2005-01-22 11:33:11

New, stunning evidence ***based on finding atmospheric argon 40*** indicates that Titan has experienced volcanic activity generating not lava, as on Earth, but water ice and ammonia.
But then I recalled this item from YL Rocket's post, quoting another science source:
Gases like Argon are not present on Titan
??? Will Google for whatever difference there may be between argon 40 and Argon (I'm no chemistry whiz

*Someone please check me on this. Argon-40 is an isotope of Argon.

So there's a contradiction in the two science sources recently quoted here, i.e. one which says there's no Argon on Titan and another which indicates Argon-40 is present (atmospherically). ?

Can't have Argon-40 without Argon. Right? Sorry if that's an "obvious question," but chemistry isn't a strong-suit subject of mine. :-\

But then there's the "on" matter. "Gases like Argon are not present ON Titan"...Can Argon not be ON Titan (literally present on the ground/mixed in the soil) but yet its isotope be IN Titan's atmosphere? Doesn't seem likely, based on what I've read at wikipedia...but what the heck do I know?

Comments?

--Cindy

Shaun Barrett · 2005-01-22 18:30:02

Argon-40 is Argon, in as much as it's easily the commonest form of the element.

Elements are identified by the number of protons in their nuclei. This is called the Atomic Number of the element. In the case of Argon, there are 18 protons in the nucleus. If you were to take one away, or add one, you wouldn't have Argon any more - you'd have Chlorine and Potassium, respectively. So, the number of protons is the critical factor in identifying what element you're talking about.

As you say, though, elements can exist in slightly different forms called isotopes. This is because there are neutrons in the atomic nuclei of elements, as well as protons (except in the case of the simplest element, hydrogen, which has just one proton and nothing else).
Argon has 18 protons in its nucleus, as we've mentioned, and it usually has 22 neutrons to go with them. If you add the number of neutrons to the number of protons, you get the Atomic Mass of the element - in this case, 40. This is effectively how 'heavy' the isotope is.

Argon exists in three stable forms, or isotopes, which are listed here together with their percentage abundance in Earth's atmosphere:-
Argon-36 (18 protons plus 18 neutrons) Abundance - 0.3365%
Argon-38 (18 protons plus 20 neutrons) Abundance - 0.0632%
Argon-40 (18 protons plus 22 neutrons) Abundance - 99.6003%
(There are several other unstable isotopes known also, which decay at various rates.)

As you can see, the vast majority of Argon exists in the Argon-40 form. So, to all intents and purposes, when we speak of Argon generally, we're talking about Argon-40.

I don't think there's any difference between the Argon 'on' Titan and the Argon 'in' Titan's atmosphere. I understand why you're trying to draw that distinction, as part of an effort to resolve the apparent discrepancy in the two reports.
However, I think it's just a case of confusion in the initial rush of data from Huygens - probably just a reporting glitch, I suspect, which will be sorted out in due course..

Hope that helps.

alan · 2005-01-22 21:35:36

About the report that there was no argon. I beleive they said there was no primordial argon, that is argon captured when Titan was formed. The argon that is present is from the decay of potassium. They can tell this because it is a different isotope than the argon formed by nuclear reactions inside stars. The source of the argon and how much of it there is helps them determine how volcanically active Titan has been or at what temperature it formed. This could help explain why there is methane on titan and not on Jupiter's moons.

Stephen · 2005-01-23 19:14:24

Re this matter of the argon, I saw the telecast and as far as I can now recall--the ESA doesn't seem to have a a multimedia file of press conference on the Net so I can't verify it--it wasn't the argon they said that was missing from the atmosphere but the other noble gases such as neon & krypton.

SpaceNut · 2005-01-24 10:45:45

Here is the first editorial that discounts the value of having sent a probe to saturn and its moon Titan. Not much in the article other than complaining about the cost.

COUNTERVIEW: Resources could have been better used on Earth

The Cassini-Huygens international mission to study the Saturnian system — with particular emphasis on its giant moon Titan — is, even in astronomical terms, a complete waste of money, time and effort. The total expenditure on the project, including the cost of the flight and of ground staff, has been estimated at $3.26 billion with $1.4 billion spent on pre-launch development alone.

Palomar · 2005-01-24 11:04:52

*Thanks Shaun (yes, that did help), Alan and Stephen. I appreciate the feedback.

Shaun: Argon-40 (18 protons plus 22 neutrons) Abundance - 99.6003%
(There are several other unstable isotopes known also, which decay at various rates.)
As you can see, the vast majority of Argon exists in the Argon-40 form. So, to all intents and purposes, when we speak of Argon generally, we're talking about Argon-40.

I guess I overlooked that bit of info in the chart provided at the web site I read, or maybe the specifics weren't included. Learn something new every day. Thanks again.

Alan: The argon that is present is from the decay of potassium. They can tell this because it is a different isotope than the argon formed by nuclear reactions inside stars. The source of the argon and how much of it there is helps them determine how volcanically active Titan has been or at what temperature it formed.

:up:

-*-

http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/multimedia/i … 1330]Spots (ovals, swirling vortices and filaments of gas)

and

http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/multimedia/i … 329]Swirls

Caption says pic taken in infrared, which brings out more detail.

--Cindy

Palomar · 2005-01-26 09:02:40

*Wow!

Usually I wait for at least 2 images to have accumulated before posting but http://www.saturntoday.com/news/viewsr. … 5234]-this- one cannot wait.

This is the first such photo I've seen from Cassini. All others showing a moon (or however many) with Saturn are mostly close-ups or a hint of globe/rings alongside. This is the most complete photo yet. Cool interplay of the rings' shadows too. The moons look like little pieces of styrofoam stuck to Saturn, as if by static electricity. :;):

Note how far beyond the north pole sunlight spreads.

--Cindy

::EDIT:: Looks like I've got that 2nd image for this post (from a different web site): http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/multimedia/i … =1332]Dawn for Odysseus

The eastern rim of the large crater Odysseus is visible along the terminator in this image of Saturn's moon Tethys. This enormous impact feature is the largest on Tethys, at approximately 450 kilometers (280 miles) across. The shadowy rim of another smaller crater can be seen at the bottom.

This huge IC on Tethys...the huge IC on Mimas...(crater size compared to actual moon size)... :-\ Lots of violence out there...

Palomar · 2005-01-27 06:04:23

*The moons look as though theyre]http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=15253]they're dropping from between the rings. Unique photo.

-*-

http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=15254]Now THIS is quite a view; looks like sliding down the edge...

--Cindy

SpaceNut · 2005-01-27 10:44:01

Saturns rings sometimes reminds me of looking at the bands on an old LP record.

Palomar · 2005-01-27 10:54:22

Saturns rings sometimes reminds me of looking at the bands on an old LP record.

:laugh: Agreed, SpaceNut (in the non-color pics anyway).

Saturn's rings are groovy. :band:

--Cindy

Palomar · 2005-01-27 14:19:05

Titans]http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/ap_huygens_update_050127.html]Titan's methane not produced by life.

*All ingredients for life are there, but scientists seem to have concluded the methane isn't coming from living organisms. They're still "puzzling over" the origins of the methane:

FRANKFURT, Germany (AP) -- Saturn's largest moon contains all the ingredients for life, but senior scientists studying data from a European probe ruled out the possibility Titan's abundant methane stems from living organisms.
More than a week after the Huygens probe plunged through Titan's atmosphere, researchers continue to pore over data collected for clues to how the only celestial body known to have a significant atmosphere other than Earth came to be and whether it can provide clues to how life arose here.
Initial findings have revealed an abundance of methane on the surface of Titan - the first moon other than Earth's to be explored - which is crucial to supporting its thick atmosphere. But scientists are still puzzling over the origin of the methane.
"This methane cannot be coming from living organisms," Jean-Pierre Lebreton, mission manager for the Huygens probe that landed on the surface of Titan Jan. 14, told The Associated Press on Wednesday.

They're speculating about a hydro-geological process in Titan's interior producing the methane:

The process is called serpentinisation and is basically the reaction between water and rocks at 100 to 400 degrees Celsius (212 to 752 degrees Fahrenheit), he said.

Titan has necessary ingredients for life...but not in the correct combinations. Hmmmm.

--Cindy

C M Edwards · 2005-01-27 15:38:08

The methane not being due to life sounds entirely logical.

Now all they have to do is prove it. :;):

To do this, I'd recommend verifying that there is virtually no carbon-14 in Titan's atmosphere. (C14 comes from nitrogen and cosmic rays, not existing methane. Only an active chemical process - like respiration - can lock it up in C02 or CH4.)

Can they do that? Or are they just guessing?

Commodore · 2005-01-27 20:32:07

On Mars they've determined methane comes from either volcanic activity or life.

Could the same be true on Titan?

Stephen · 2005-01-28 11:02:09

On Mars they've determined methane comes from either volcanic activity or life.
Could the same be true on Titan?

Who knows?

According to http://www.astrobio.net/news/modules.ph … thold=0]an expert interviewed by Astrobiology Magazine the source of Titan's methane is "still a mystery" (though he also adds that the "Huygens data are expected to reveal the secret, in time").

(Incidently, he also adds an interesting tidbit re that methane: for various reasons--eg the solar ultraviolet flux--the "lifetime of methane in Titan's atmosphere is approximately ten million years, compared to 300-600 years on Mars".)

C M Edwards · 2005-01-28 12:33:11

Is there any ordering to those "triplets" of photos from Huygens? Were the three photos all taken at the same time, for example? From which camera?

I ask because I'm trying to determine if there's any useable data in those two blurry photos recurring with the more famous surface shot. However, one of those appears elsewhere with other photos clearly not taken from the surface.

Hmm...

Ian Flint · 2005-01-28 13:02:06

As I understand it, the blurry photos were pointing straight down and at a downward angle. So, when the surface shot was taken with the side facing camera the other two would be out of focus or covered with dirt.

Palomar · 2005-01-28 17:48:02

*I wish Cassini would send us back some info on the "spokes" within Saturn's rings. http://images.google.com/images?q=Satur … =en]Images and info links. Thought I'd post an entire Google search result (still photos)!

Will try to find a video clip of movement of the spokes. I posted that in the original C-H thread, but darned if I'll wade through umpteen pages trying to find it again, LOL. Will post that link in an edit to this post in a jiffy.

--Cindy

::EDIT:: http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr161/lect … html]Movie clip of "spokes" (Voyager I)

It's toward the bottom of the page. A "smoother and longer" movie of the same phenomenon is also available in a link.

Shaun Barrett · 2005-01-28 21:09:44

I think I'm pretty badly spoilt by the seemingly endless string of high quality photos coming from the surface of Mars, so the one image from the surface of Titan is frustrating.
Brilliant .. but frustrating!
:bars:
If only that camera could have been mounted on a swivel or something! (Cost restraints forbade it, of course.)

The idea that bacterial life might exist under the surface of Titan, perhaps many kilometres down, may not be entirely impossible. But I have very serious doubts.
The Hoyle-Wickramasinghe panspermia hypothesis, if true, would allow for the seeding of almost any celestial body with life. All it then has to do is survive, the likelihood of which depends on the evolution of environmental conditions over time.
Titan was presumably warmer in its early days, soon after formation, so any life spores arriving from space could have germinated there. It's also not impossible that crustal material from Mars or Earth, ejected by impacts, could have ferried viable spores to Titan. But how soon after that, assuming it happened at all, did conditions on Titan settle into their current cryogenic state? And could the deeper crust have remained warm enough to suit microbes?
All very speculative, I know, but strange things do happen

Although I'm 99.9% sure Mars harbours life, I'm 99.9% sure Titan doesn't .. but not 100% sure!

(Of course, my opinion about Titan may just constitute a failure of imagination on my part. But no one would be more awe-struck and delighted than I would be to discover that Titan's deep crust is actually warm and seething with methanogens. )

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Re: Cassini-Huygens III - Continued from previous

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