From the Ground Up - Is terraforming Mars REALLY possible?

Palomar · 2002-10-01 16:20:44

*I haven't read every post of every thread under the "Terraforming" section, but it seems to me that many of the posts and their respective threads deal with whether or not Mars should be terraformed.

I decided to start a new thread, and share some thoughts which have been rolling around in my head the past 2-3 days:

In the thread "H20, Where'd It Go?", in the "Water on Mars" folder, some of us touched on the potential difficulties of creating bodies of water on Mars with aquatic life in them; the discussion took place in June of this year. It seems introducing, much less sustaining, aquatic life on Mars -- even simpler organisms -- will itself require tremendous effort.

Shaun has mentioned the magnetic fields on Mars adversely affecting homing pigeons, wherein they would not be able to navigate the planet.

Also, in a previous thread (which I failed to relocate), someone mentioned the pollination process necessary for some plants, and how scientists on Mars would have to pollinate the plants themselves, unless a certain insect species could be introduced...which would introduce the problem of keeping that insect population under control, sans the predator specific to it being absent on Mars.

We've discussed edibles that could be grown on Mars, and what small animals may be taken there. But as we all know, unless species brought from Earth can adapt to the Marsian environment, or be genetically manipulated to aid in the adaptive process, there is little hope for true terraformation.

I'm certainly no authority on the topics of the food chain and ecosystem by a long shot, but have we discussed even the most rudimentary building blocks of a food chain and an ecosystem? What about bacteria, moulds, fungi, etc.?

The "reds" are nervous about humans playing God and changing the face of Mars permanently. I wonder if this is even a legitimate concern, unless and until the necessary species of microscopic life, insect life, plant life, etc., etc., etc. - and their predatory counterparts - can be successfully introduced ::and:: sustained (of their own accord) on Mars.

I had an image in my mind's eye, while thinking of all this, of a horse standing in a grassy pasture, nipping at the grasses and sauntering along. Then I try to imagine how this will come to pass on a planet barren of any sort of plant life. I try to comprehend the Herculean efforts which will be required to bring this vision alone to pass -- a horse on Mars, grazing in an open pasture, able to breathe and eat sans artificial environment.

My imagination is not up to the task of trying to sort all of this out, I admit.

Will terraforming Mars to this extent truly be possible? Can a food chain and ecosystem be manipulated into a viable, living thing? It's a staggering concept.

--Cindy

Phobos · 2002-10-01 20:20:16

Will terraforming Mars to this extent truly be possible? Can a food chain and ecosystem be manipulated into a viable, living thing? It's a staggering concept.
--Cindy

Terraforming would be an extremely difficult and long process but it's certainly not impossible. Just look at Earth, 4 billion years ago it was nothing like it is today. Higher animals would have no chance of surviving there. It was only after primitive life had "terraformed" the planet that the conditions that higher life depends on came into existence. I pretty much hold to the viewpoint that if something's within physical laws it isn't truly impossible even though it might be extremely improbable or close to impossible. Personally though I think I'm falling in with the "red" crowd when it comes to terraforming. I think it's just easier and more practicle to build giant areas and make them habitable then to terraform an entire planet.

Josh Cryer · 2002-10-01 23:03:28

Yes! It's very possible! Evolution, and Darwinism sort of show us that organisms constantly try to reach equilibrium.

Of one species eats too much of another, there won't be enough food for that species, and it will die off until there is. It's all about the game of life.

The only major problem I see with terraformation, is that we will probably need a magnetic field, to keep the solar wind from degenerating the atmosphere, and basically killing everything but the most robust bacteria. I'm not sure what kind of energy is involved in creating Earth's magnetic field, but on Mars I assume we'd need something at least half as strong. Strategically placed, like at the lagrange point(s) (two may be better than one, although I see no point for a second one other than to close a magnetic loop).

Any other problems would undoubtedly be resolved by natural ecosystem equilibrium.

Number04 · 2002-10-02 09:07:01

As a side note, how hard would it be to start seeing what plants we could take and what supporting plants/insects/animals would we need? Has anyone done any work on this or knows anyone who has?

Palomar · 2002-10-02 09:23:16

Personally though I think I'm falling in with the "red" crowd when it comes to terraforming. I think it's just easier and more practicle to build giant areas and make them habitable then to terraform an entire planet.

*That pretty much sums up my position as it currently is. However, even giant areas of habitable and fertile land will have to be united within an overall-conducive atmosphere.

--Cindy

Palomar · 2002-10-02 15:11:40

Strategically placed, like at the lagrange point(s) (two may be better than one, although I see no point for a second one other than to close a magnetic loop).

*Hi Josh. Your sentence seems, to me,
incomplete. "Strategically placed" -- what?

Going back to Phobos' idea of only terraforming large expanses of land, and not the entire planet, and my chiming in that an overall, uniformly conducive atmosphere would still have to be created...well, irrigation of vast expanses would probably be very difficult, if not impossible, and if natural rainfalls were to develop in the Marsian atmosphere (required for crops and land areas not irrigated), doubtless the terraformed areas would spread naturally...or at least weeds would.

Humidity may probably do strange and wonderful things on Mars. But still, I have conflicting feels about the greening of Mars. I think I'm more of a reddie

--Cindy

Phobos · 2002-10-02 17:44:23

*Hi Josh. Your sentence seems, to me,
incomplete. "Strategically placed" -- what?

I think Josh was talking about strategically placing giant magnets about Mars to simulate a magnetic field to protect the atmosphere. I think we should turn the agricultural areas into parks that could serve both recreational and food producing services. Lounging around in an area rife with fruit trees and fish ponds could be good for the soul.

As a side note, how hard would it be to start seeing what plants we could take and what supporting plants/insects/animals would we need? Has anyone done any work on this or knows anyone who has?

We could probably build something of a Mars simulation chamber and experiment with different plants to see what works best. I think there will be a place for bees on Mars as they help to both pollinate plants and make food. Honey could make a good alternative to sugar if we don't want to take up greehouse space with plants that soley produce sugar.

PaganToris · 2002-10-02 17:55:07

well it seems to be that sadam who saying is gonna launch a Nuclier missle from a yar to 5 years i herd bout it on something cant remember exsactly what but i hope it wont happen

A.J.Armitage · 2002-10-02 18:21:49

PaganToris;

You wouldn't happen to be on drugs, would you?

Shaun Barrett · 2002-10-03 06:47:04

I think it's the axe.

Shaun Barrett · 2002-10-03 06:53:39

No Cindy!
Please don't join the Reds!
On my wall, as I write this, I have a beautiful sequential picture of Mars changing from the way it looks now to a magnificent planet with a blue northern ocean and white fluffy clouds.

Terraforming will, I'm sure, be easier than it looks.
Given a little time, "life finds a way".

Josh Cryer · 2002-10-03 14:23:19

Well, I was actually thinking of a huge web of fibers in sort of a magnetospheric framework. What I'm seeing, is suspension of hundreds of trillians of electrically charged particles, connected together with carbon or other conductive fibers.

Think of a huge magnetized metal fishing net that spreads over hundreds of thousands of kilometers. It wouldn't encircle Mars, it would just sit in front of Mars, with a magnet field spanning thousands of miles.

When I first thought about how we could create a magnetic field, I figured any sort of system would be prone to failure, due to meteorite impacts, space dust, and general radiological breakdown. So I was actually a non-advocate of terraformation. But this web idea is actually pretty elegant, I think. We could theoretically have it composed of hundreds of thousands of millions of sensors, a neural network of sorts. It could maintain its place at the lagrange point for hundreds of years, theoretically, using magnetospheric propulsion. Since the whole thing would be decentralized over a massive area, the actual framework will be a lot less prone to impacts. And since it creates its own magnetosphere, it would be protected from radiological damage. By the time such a thing could be built, it could even be self reparing, though it needn't be due to its inherent durability.

Palomar · 2002-10-03 15:36:40

No Cindy!
Please don't join the Reds!
On my wall, as I write this, I have a beautiful sequential picture of Mars changing from the way it looks now to a magnificent planet with a blue northern ocean and white fluffy clouds.
Terraforming will, I'm sure, be easier than it looks.
Given a little time, "life finds a way".

*Shaun, you got me. Right with my absolutely FAVORITE -- and, (IMO), the most moving -- line from the movie "Jurassic Park." You hit a really soft spot!

Life finds a way.

--Cindy

Phobos · 2002-10-03 18:52:34

No Cindy!
Please don't join the Reds!
On my wall, as I write this, I have a beautiful sequential picture of Mars changing from the way it looks now to a magnificent planet with a blue northern ocean and white fluffy clouds.
Terraforming will, I'm sure, be easier than it looks.
Given a little time, "life finds a way".

The other day when I was strolling among the truly gigantic trees up in Sequoia National Park I couldn't help but think about how gorgeous Mars would be covered with such huge trees. I was thinking about how we could construct whole cities up in them like the Ewoks in Star Wars do but I won't get into that.

Josh Cryer · 2002-10-04 00:27:29

BGD, ahh, clever idea. But I don't know whether or not magnetite bacteria on the surface of Mars could create a large enough magnetosphere to completely stop solar erosion. My guess is no.

It could be intersting to put those bacteria on asteriods, and place them at the lagrange point(s), but unfortunately, the lagrange point(s) are not stable, and anything orbiting at those points will need to be adjusted periodically (there are lagrange points where this is not the case, that practically auto adjust themselves, but I don't know if we could use them since they're so far away from a planet). So I think, ultimately, a netlike thing capable of adjusting itself with no central technoloy, is the best choice. Also, I really like science fiction. Hehe.

Shaun Barrett · 2002-10-04 04:54:45

Hi Josh and BGD!
As far as I can tell from stuff I've been reading over the years, the generation of a planetary magnetic field is not a completely understood process. Mathematical models based on the mass movement of magma and the (presumed) molten core, have sort of explained it. But I believe there are weaknesses in these models. And, as I mentioned elsewhere in New Mars, there is a new theory based on the premise that there's a ball of uranium undergoing fission at the cores of many solar system bodies.
I still cling to the notion that maybe Mars is in the middle of a 'magnetic reversal', and that it may normally generate a rather stronger field than our instruments are picking up today. (Fingers crossed! )

In the meantime, BGD could be on to something with his idea, though I don't understand how such magnetotactic bacteria could produce a global field. .... Utilise it for navigation, yes .... actually produce it, no. But, of course, my inability to understand it certainly doesn't mean it can't be so!! If that were the criterion for validity, most of the known universe would cease to exist!

Josh's huge, artificially produced, protective field is an amazing prospect! And I can't see any fundamental reason why it shouldn't work. But I guess it's on a par with the soletta idea for increasing the amount of sunlight falling on Mars - in other words it will probably be something for later rather than sooner! Though, having said that, it's a brave (or stupid) individual who errs on the side of pessimism when it comes to technological advances.
Actually Josh, I've never come across this concept before and it may be something quite original. Keep up the good work!

Cindy, I'm so glad to have turned you back to the true path!! What luck that I should happen upon your SECOND Achilles Heel ... "life finds a way"!
Your FIRST glaring weakness, apparently, relates to a certain starship captain .... !!

Palomar · 2002-10-04 12:47:23

The other day when I was strolling among the truly gigantic trees up in Sequoia National Park I couldn't help but think about how gorgeous Mars would be covered with such huge trees. I was thinking about how we could construct whole cities up in them like the Ewoks in Star Wars do but I won't get into that.

*I heard on the news the other day that the Sequoias are in danger, particularly the saplings. Too much pollution caught in the region, particularly from surrounding fruit and nut farms; seems the tractors, harvesting equipment, etc., are kicking up a tremendous amount of dust, which gets caught between the mountain ranges...added to all the exhaust fumes from a nearby major highway. Apparently the saplings are literally choking on the dust and pollution, and are dying, which isn't a good sign for future Sequoias. Sad.

Hopefully our Marsian counterparts will be a tad more conscientious as regards pollution and the like. IMO, everything possible should be recyclable on Mars, or as nearly so as possible.

Also, in regards to terraforming Mars, let's think EARTHWORMS. Those little squigglers' waste products keep the loam rich, from what I've heard. They're ugly and they stink, but what the heck.

--Cindy

Josh Cryer · 2002-10-04 13:14:32

Hey, my artificially produced magnetic field will be alive from a neural network perspective.

Earthworms are great recyclers, especially since they reintroduce nitrogen back into the soil. Mars is lacking a lot of nitrogen, though. One of the few Terran things Mars lacks. And I really don't see us being able to simulate soil (and animals that inhabit soil) without first simulating the Terran atmosphere to a large degree. Many plants need nitrogen. Genetic engineering could come in to play here, but I don't know.

A lot of you may be leaning Red, but I figure I'm probably the ?Reddest? of the pro-terraformers here. Soil and grass covered valleys and tree covered mountians don't really appeal to me. I'm a blue sky, Red ground kind of person.

Shaun Barrett · 2002-10-04 19:25:39

I don't think you're alone, BGD, in your reasoning about possible large bacterial populations in the Martian crust where conditions might suit them.
But, to the best of my knowledge, your concept of living things creating a planetary magnetic field is an original and unique idea.
I honestly don't have a clue whether it's feasible or not, but it's a fascinating idea! And, as they say, 'stranger things have happened'.

Josh Cryer · 2002-10-05 15:01:33

That's actually why I don't like the idea of bacterial terraformation. If we introduce bacteria (genetically engineered or otherwise), they could mutate into something completely leathal to all lifeforms, and could complicate the terraformation process further (if not destroy our prospects completely). Can you imagine what sort of playground Mars would be for bacteria if there was no other species to cull their population?

If we restrict lifeforms to certain places, like an ocean, we can easily have control over them. Especially if they're plants with relatively low mutation rates, dependent on lots of water to survive.

Palomar · 2002-10-05 15:27:08

That's actually why I don't like the idea of bacterial terraformation. If we introduce bacteria (genetically engineered or otherwise), they could mutate into something completely leathal to all lifeforms, and could complicate the terraformation process further (if not destroy our prospects completely). Can you imagine what sort of playground Mars would be for bacteria if there was no other species to cull their population?
If we restrict lifeforms to certain places, like an ocean, we can easily have control over them. Especially if they're plants with relatively low mutation rates, dependent on lots of water to survive.

*Well, I admit I don't know much about bacteria. I've been wanting to ask what might seem like a crazy question, but I'll risk it:

I know "anything is possible," but what do you guys think the chances are that, once terraforming techniques are put into place, it may stimulate dormant life on Mars...and suddenly genuinely native Marsian grasses [at least] are springing up everywhere? Or very small insect life?

Is this highly probable? Just wondering.

--Cindy

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#1 2002-10-01 16:20:44

Re: From the Ground Up - Is terraforming Mars REALLY possible?

#2 2002-10-01 20:20:16

Re: From the Ground Up - Is terraforming Mars REALLY possible?

#3 2002-10-01 23:03:28

Re: From the Ground Up - Is terraforming Mars REALLY possible?

#4 2002-10-02 09:07:01

Re: From the Ground Up - Is terraforming Mars REALLY possible?

#5 2002-10-02 09:23:16

Re: From the Ground Up - Is terraforming Mars REALLY possible?

#6 2002-10-02 15:11:40

Re: From the Ground Up - Is terraforming Mars REALLY possible?

#7 2002-10-02 17:44:23

Re: From the Ground Up - Is terraforming Mars REALLY possible?

#8 2002-10-02 17:55:07

Re: From the Ground Up - Is terraforming Mars REALLY possible?

#9 2002-10-02 18:21:49

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#10 2002-10-03 06:47:04

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#11 2002-10-03 06:53:39

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#12 2002-10-03 14:23:19

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#13 2002-10-03 15:36:40

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#14 2002-10-03 18:52:34

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#16 2002-10-04 04:54:45

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#17 2002-10-04 12:47:23

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#18 2002-10-04 13:14:32

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