The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

A.J.Armitage · 2002-09-26 15:45:25

I haven't seen any threads on it. I think that's odd, so here's one now.

Two links to get started: An Introduction to Martian Time (at our own New Mars), and A Calender for Mars (Zubrin's proposal).

A.J.Armitage · 2002-09-26 16:13:22

Here's a question:

Zubrin bases his system on the Martian seasons. He starts the year with the vernal equinox. But how much does the tilting matter? Wouldn't the distance from the Sun matter more, and if it does, wouldn't the whole planet go through one seasonal cycle in unison, just with warmer summer in the south and colder winters in the north, based around aphelion and perihelion instead of the equinoxes and solstices?

Phobos · 2002-09-26 18:29:25

I wonder if we could just produce a calendar based on something other than seasons/day cycles that could be used for the entire Solar System. If we develop numerous colonies all through space it's going to get hellish trying to keep track of all of these calendars and making your time correspond to theirs. I already have enough of a headache trying to figure out what the time in X time zone is compared to the time in Y zone. I guess I got horribly off topic, but I don't really like Zubrin's plan for a calendar, I think we should work on something more universal, but perhaps that's impossible.

A.J.Armitage · 2002-09-27 21:38:17

I'm surprised there so little interest.

Maybe if I toss a few thoughts out... I dislike Zubrin's year-numbering. The epoch makes no sense, and as for using Roman numerals... no. Just no. I think the most obvious epoch is the year of the first landing, and the easiest way to number the years is to make the epoch MY (for Martian Year) 0. Years before the landing would be in negative numbers. MY -15, for example, Of course years after would be in positives, such as MY 4. The best thing to do with weeks is just to continue the cycle in transit, so if they launch on a Friday, their first full day on the way will be a Saturday. Then continue on Mars the same way, so that if they landed on a Tuesday, it would be Tuesday on Mars. The cycles will run differently from then on because of the difference in day length, but there's no reason that should matter.

Phobos;

I suppose the Gregorian calender will be the de facto universal calender, but I don't think you can get rid of the need for a local calender.

Byron · 2002-09-28 06:28:13

Good topic...one that I have interest in, at least I've been hesitant to start a 'calender' thread out of concern of boring everyone to tears... ???

It's amazing to see how many different ideas there have been for a Martian calender...apart from terraforming, coming up with a universal Martian calender will probably be one the most contentious issues facing a young Martian society. There are religious issues to consider, the type of epoch to use (big disagreements there), and whether to base the calender on the seasons, which are not even in length, due the eccentricity of Mars' orbit. Last, but not least, is how to make the number of days "fit" into the year, which will be a bit more complicated than just inserting a leap year every four years.

I've done a bit of research on Martain calenders, and I've "invented" one of my own, which I think personally makes the most sense and is simplest to use. I've gone so far as to make a template calender...perhaps I should sell them on the Web..LOL... It goes as follows:

There are 24 months in the year, all of them 28 days long, except for the last month in the year, which is either 24 or 25 days to finish out the 668+ sol Martian year. (a sol is a Martian local day, about 24.7 hours long). The seven-day week would be used, with the suffix 'sol' used instead of 'day' for the days of the week, i.e., Monsol, Tuesol, etc., and each month would begin on the same day of the week, on Sunsol, the first day of the week. Of course, there is the problem of the final month, in which you would have a 3 or 4 day "week" to finish out the m-year and start the year over again back in synch...but I think those final days could just be designated "Year's End Days," and that would be an excuse to have an extended holiday at the end of the year, and normal activities are put on hold for those days while everyone parties and has a great time .

The months would be named after the 12 constellations of the Zodiac (every other month), as well as 12 others chosen for the in-between months...the criteria for doing this would be based on whatever constellation can be seen in the early evening sky (approximate) at the beginning of each month. The first month of the year would begin with Gemini, and end with Orion. New Years' Day would fall on Ls = 0, which is the vernal equinox (1st day of Spring in the northern hemisphere). Since the seasons vary in length, they won't line up with the months...likely a point of little concern to the Martians.

The years would be designated by the letters M.Y., beginning with M.Y. 0, the year of First Landing. (It wouldn't start on the exact day of F.L., if they land at Ls = 120, for example, the calender would still begin on Ls = 0 of that particular "year."

As far as the local "day" is concerned, already called "sols" by scientists here on Earth to differentiate between Mars and Earth, it would be the same as here on Earth, except the seconds, minutes and hours would be expanded by a factor of approx 1.03 to fit the slighly longer Martian day length. KSR's idea of the "time slip," the "extra" 39 minutes tacked on to the end of a standard Terran 24-hour day is the stupidest idea I've ever heard...shame on him for using such a ludicrious idea for his Mars trilogy. It would be highly impractical to have that odd segment of time left over each day...and there is absolutely no logical reason not to "fit" the hours and minutes into the Martian sol.

Phobos, your idea for a "universal" calender for the entire Solar System is a good one, but virtually impossible to construct, as it would be totally out of synch with the local time-keeping systems of various planets, moons, etc. Like English here on Earth, the Terran calender would likely serve as the universal calender, and the "local" calenders in use would just reference back to the Earth calender...instead of having paper calenders on the wall (paper should be extinct by the time we colonize space), we would have "smart" sheets on the wall that display the local date, as well as the corresponding Earth date, with the correct day of both calenders automatically highlighted for convenience.

In response to A.J.'s questions about the seasons...yes, the eccentric orbit does impact the seasonal effects, but summer is still summer when the days are long, and the same for winter, when the days are short. The southern summers are short and hot, while the winters are long and cold; as opposed to the northern hemisphere in which the springs and summers are cool, but long, and the winters are mild and shorter. In short, the northern hemisphere climate is much more "evened" out as opposed to the extremes of the southern hemisphere. But considering everyone will be living in a controlled environment, at least in the beginning, the variations of the temps would be of little concern.

I hope I haven't confused everyone beyond reason...just post any questions you might have about this...and I'll try to answer to the best of my ability...

B

A.J.Armitage · 2002-09-28 20:10:09

Byron;

Thanks for the information about the seasons.

I don't agree with some of your ideas for the calender. First, I think 24 months is two many. 12, besides already having huge precedent, is probably the most that can be practically dealt with.

On days and weeks: I know sol is the "correct" term, but it irks the hell out of me. They're days. Just call them days. In fact, unless I'm mistaken, a "sol" is actually a unit of the light-dark cycle anywhere, so that a sol on Antarctica is significantly different from one in most of the planet. So I say, make sol mean specifically the light-dark cycle, and day the human sleep cycle. And do NOT try to foist monstrosities like Satursol on us. If we're keeping the name for seconds, we can keep the name for days.

Your non-week days at the end will seriously screw things up, if there are Jews or really serious Christians there, because it doesn't matter what the day is called, it only matters what the count is. Every 7 days is a Sabbath, and for (most) Christians every day after the Sabbath is the Lord's Day, regardless of which pagan god you name the day after. I don't know, but Muslims are probably the same way. The result of the above is, you have to let some people (but not others) off in the middle of the week in addition to the weekends.

Byron · 2002-09-29 06:51:22

I don't agree with some of your ideas for the calender. First, I think 24 months is two many. 12, besides already having huge precedent, is probably the most that can be practically dealt with.

Considering that the Martian year is almost double the length of the Terran year, I think it makes perfect sense to have double the number of months in the year. Otherwise you would have months that are eight weeks long...imagine the size of your rent / mortgage payments..lol...Seriously, however, the week and the month should be kept more or less the same length as you find in the Gregorian calender.

On days and weeks: I know sol is the "correct" term, but it irks the hell out of me. They're days. Just call them days. In fact, unless I'm mistaken, a "sol" is actually a unit of the light-dark cycle anywhere, so that a sol on Antarctica is significantly different from one in most of the planet. So I say, make sol mean specifically the light-dark cycle, and day the human sleep cycle. And do NOT try to foist monstrosities like Satursol on us. If we're keeping the name for seconds, we can keep the name for days.

O.K., O.K., I get your point...we'll keep the names of the days of the week the same.. The reason I proposed using the word 'sol' instead of 'day' is to avoid confusion between Earth and Mars...Tuesday on Mars will not be the same as Tuesday on Earth, due the the different day lengths. You're right, however...a 'day' can be referred to a human sleep cycle, and 'sol' would simply the scientific term for the day/night cycle on Mars.

Your non-week days at the end will seriously screw things up, if there are Jews or really serious Christians there, because it doesn't matter what the day is called, it only matters what the count is. Every 7 days is a Sabbath, and for (most) Christians every day after the Sabbath is the Lord's Day, regardless of which pagan god you name the day after. I don't know, but Muslims are probably the same way. The result of the above is, you have to let some people (but not others) off in the middle of the week in addition to the weekends.

This is what irks me about religion...why must we always accede to their demands?? Yes, having a 'funny' week at the end of the long m-year is a bit awkward, but wouldn't it be nice to have every day of the month fall on the same day of the week? The thing is, if you make accomodations for one religion, you have to accomodate them all, which means the Muslims get their Sabbath on Friday, the Jews and Mormons get theirs on Saturday, and the Christians on Sunday. There are the religious holidays to consider, which will fall haphazardly throughout the Martian year...not the most ideal of situations, either.

I say let the 'religious' people lump it or leave it. They can agree to an universal calender that makes the most logical sense, or they can just stay home on Earth. ??? If a religious group, lets say, the Mormons (who I think would be a likely candidate to create a settlement on Mars), want to create their own calender that suits their needs, fine, they can use their own calender...but I don't see why it has to be forced upon the secular population of Mars, which will most likely be in the majority.

B

A.J.Armitage · 2002-09-29 14:29:43

Byron;

Considering that the Martian year is almost double the length of the Terran year, I think it makes perfect sense to have double the number of months in the year.

Or double the days in the month.

This is what irks me about religion...why must we always accede to their demands??

Forcing someone to violate his religion is persecution. Demanding freedom from persecution is hardly unreasonable.

Yes, having a 'funny' week at the end of the long m-year is a bit awkward, but wouldn't it be nice to have every day of the month fall on the same day of the week?

Why? What gain (other than the "gain" of persecuting religious people) is there?

The thing is, if you make accomodations for one religion, you have to accomodate them all, which means the Muslims get their Sabbath on Friday, the Jews and Mormons get theirs on Saturday, and the Christians on Sunday. There are the religious holidays to consider, which will fall haphazardly throughout the Martian year...not the most ideal of situations, either.

As a matter of fact, accomodating all of them is exactly what we should do. And keeping the week as it has been will accomodate all of them.

As for holidays, we already do accomodate people who have religious holidays falling haphazardly throughout the year. Muslims follow a lunar calander. Ramadan "sanctifies the whole year", as they sometimes put it, by occurring in all seasons. And what would you do? Prohibit people from having their holidays?

I say let the 'religious' people lump it or leave it.

I say, let the Jews convert or leave. Or die.

They can agree to an universal calender that makes the most logical sense, or they can just stay home on Earth.

Except that it doesn't make any logical sense. As far as I can tell, there's no reason to want every month starting on the same day except an excuse to make people work on their sabbath, i.e. an excuse to persecute them.

Now, if you want logical, how about a calender designed to meet the needs of religious people without harming others, instead of one designed to exclude religious people while doing others no good whatsoever?

Byron · 2002-10-01 07:07:28

A.J.,

This is what irks me about religion...why must we always accede to their demands??
Forcing someone to violate his religion is persecution. Demanding freedom from persecution is hardly unreasonable.

I really don't think using a common 'secular' calender is 'persecution.' Using the number of years since the birth of Christ is the commonly accepted standard throughout the world...is that 'persecuting' the Jews or the Muslims? As far as I'm aware, they still use their own calenders for the purpose of religious activities...and I've never heard any of the Jews I've known to complain about the 'Christian' calender. The standard calender is just a tool, just like a chronometer or computing device...a standardized reference of time to keep the individual parts of society in synch. I really don't see how implementting a wholly secular calender would be prosecuting practitioners of the various religions...after all, they will still be allowed to use and adhere to their own religious calenders, just as people do here on Earth.

Another point I wish to make about working on the Sabbath...On Mars, plain survival will be first and foremost in the colonist's minds...which means work will have to performed whenever necessary...not according to whatever day the Sabboth falls upon. Even my grandparents, who were devout Christians, had to work on each and every Sabbath to get the cows milked on the farm...it being a task that simply could not be avoided. This will be even more true on Mars. It will be a setting not very conductive at all to tradition-bound settlers, especially in the beginning. One way or another, the earthly traditions of religion and society will have to be modified to fit life on Mars.

Whether one is religious or not, going to Mars will certainly entail one thing: Change. If people are not willing to change their ways to accomodate life on Mars...it's just not going to work out. I'm all for keeping the varied traditions of Earth alive and well...but Mars will be a fertile ground suitable for new traditions to form. I don't why this concept scares some people...as it really shouldn't. This is how the human race grows and evolves to a higher level over the long sweep of time.

B

Palomar · 2002-10-01 13:24:24

*If it will be the Corporations which have control over Marsian settlements, those settlements will doubtless be under the time-keeping of the Corporate entities which "rule" them...perhaps with a few modifications according to Mars' day length being a bit longer than ours. Not that I want it this way, but that's just what I'm thinking will most likely happen.

As for religious observances/calendars: Yes, that could get complicated. However, people will have to adjust. If the duty of monitoring various life support systems falls to a certain religious settler, s/he won't be able to just up and "oh, it's a religious holiday -- sorry, I must do nothing but fast and pray for 2 days." S/he will have to stick with the job, unless there is a suitable replacement who is willing to "swap" holiday observances with him or her. However, I think religious calendars should be secondary and observed by the religious alone. And yes, I am aware that it is the year 2002 in the U.S.A., as supposedly dating from the time of Christ's birth. However, Jesus wasn't born on Mars -- and neither was Muhammad or Moses or Shirley MacLaine.

I'm in total agreement with Byron. Secularize the common-use Marsian calendar as far as possible.

Actually, the first landing of persons on Mars should be considered Day One, Year One in Marsian time...because then Mars will have a tactile human history tied to it.

--Cindy

A.J.Armitage · 2002-10-01 13:51:31

I really don't think using a common 'secular' calender is 'persecution.' Using the number of years since the birth of Christ is the commonly accepted standard throughout the world...is that 'persecuting' the Jews or the Muslims?

Apples and oranges.

What you're talking about doing is forcing Jews and others to work on their Sabbath, which most certainly is persecution.

Another point I wish to make about working on the Sabbath...On Mars, plain survival will be first and foremost in the colonist's minds...which means work will have to performed whenever necessary...not according to whatever day the Sabboth falls upon.

And for Jews, at least, life-or-death necessity is a valid reason to work on the Sabbath. But not every day's work is a life or death necessity, and won't be even on Mars.

If people are not willing to change their ways to accomodate life on Mars...it's just not going to work out.

And linking weeks to months, originally proposed for Earth, is needed on Mars, why?

Or is it that persecuting people you don't like is "needed" on Mars?

A.J.Armitage · 2002-10-01 14:00:46

As for religious observances/calendars: Yes, that could get complicated. However, people will have to adjust. If the duty of monitoring various life support systems falls to a certain religious settler, s/he won't be able to just up and "oh, it's a religious holiday -- sorry, I must do nothing but fast and pray for 2 days." S/he will have to stick with the job, unless there is a suitable replacement who is willing to "swap" holiday observances with him or her.

It's really simple. You give everyone a certain number of days off per year. How they use them is their own business. Everybody's happy.

There should be no objection to that, unless "certain people" being happy is the very thing you want to prevent.

I'm in total agreement with Byron. Secularize the common-use Marsian calendar as far as possible.

Let's bring this around to the main issue of contention: do you support using weeks that don't keep continuous count for no other reason than making life hard for "those people"?

Actually, the first landing of persons on Mars should be considered Day One, Year One in Marsian time...because then Mars will have a tactile human history tied to it.

But if you do that, you turn two Martian holidays, New Year's and the anniversary of the landing, into just one. Like turning Washington's and Lincoln's birthday into President's Day. :angry:

A.J.Armitage · 2002-10-01 14:04:59

Byron;

Let's look at it this way: what reasons are there other than socking it to religious people? Just list them, so we can examine them.

Palomar · 2002-10-01 14:16:40

Me: I'm in total agreement with Byron. Secularize the common-use Marsian calendar as far as possible.

A.J.: Let's bring this around to the main issue of contention: do you support using weeks that don't keep continuous count for no other reason than making life hard for "those people"?

*Nope. I'm not interested in making "life hard" for anyone...just trying to be practical is all.

Me: Actually, the first landing of persons on Mars should be considered Day One, Year One in Marsian time...because then Mars will have a tactile human history tied to it.

A.J.: But if you do that, you turn two Martian holidays, New Year's and the anniversary of the landing, into just one.

*Wouldn't the anniversary of the landing BE the Marsian New Year day of celebration?

--Cindy

Byron · 2002-10-01 14:19:46

A.J.,

I think we should talk about what the religious people will be doing to themselves if they go to Mars. By the simple fact that the Martian day is a bit longer than the Earth day means that adjustments will have to be made to make the "traditional" calenders "fit" with the Martian one...regardless of what system is used. I also fail to see why the week / month matching would be "socking it" to them...as there's nothing from stopping them from adjusting their 'smart sheets' on their wall to keep track of every seventh day, irregardless of the actual name of the day of the week.

BUT...the real point I'm making is that I believe that the majority of the new Martian settlers will be secular, i.e., nonreligious...and if they support matching the weeks to the months each year in a majority fashion...I just don't see why that would be making it difficult for the people that do practice a religious faith on Mars...

B

clark · 2002-10-01 14:40:51

Don't some religions holidays fall on different days, depending on the year? Isn't this due to different calanders- yet somehow the people manage....

A martian calander, for Mars. A calander after all is simply a means of dividing up time for easy measurement to predict when the best times are to plant or harvest your crop...

So a religious holiday never falls on the same day every year. Lots of religions cope, why would they be unable to continue on Mars?

Of course I think a bigger problem is for the orthodox jews who observe the religious restrictions of the sabatth- no electricity.... might be a bit of a problem in space.

I can also imagine a new breed of "Amish", maybe they only use the basic technology to support life, eschewing alll that fancy radiation protection and such...

And I thought I was the only one to engage in inane and tedious debates...

A.J.Armitage · 2002-10-01 18:02:17

ecrasez_l_infame;

*Nope. I'm not interested in making "life hard" for anyone...just trying to be practical is all.

So then you're against Byron's proposal on the week?

*Wouldn't the anniversary of the landing BE the Marsian New Year day of celebration?

Well, yeah. That was my objection. Instead of a Martian New Year's and an anniversary, all you get is one New Year's/anniversary.

Byron;

You haven't given me any reasons your proposal would be a good idea. Which confirms what I already thought: persecution is it. That's the whole motive.

By the simple fact that the Martian day is a bit longer than the Earth day means that adjustments will have to be made to make the "traditional" calenders "fit" with the Martian one...regardless of what system is used.

That's a given. It's also beside the point in how to number the weeks.

I also fail to see why the week / month matching would be "socking it" to them...as there's nothing from stopping them from adjusting their 'smart sheets' on their wall to keep track of every seventh day, irregardless of the actual name of the day of the week.

I don't believe you're being honest.

You KNOW what the objection is, because I TOLD YOU.

Of course they'll know what day their Sabbath is. That's not the issue. Either they'll have to get off in the middle of the week, or (and this your whole intention) they'll be subject to persecution or excluded from Mars altogether.

BUT...the real point I'm making is that I believe that the majority of the new Martian settlers will be secular, i.e., nonreligious...and if they support matching the weeks to the months each year in a majority fashion...I just don't see why that would be making it difficult for the people that do practice a religious faith on Mars...

If they're ready to let them off in the middle of the week, fine. But of course if they are there wouldn't really be any point, now would there?

clark;

Of course holidays observed according to an Earth calender will fall on different days of the year. That's not what we're arguing about. We're arguing about the weeks.

Josh Cryer · 2002-10-01 22:29:57

I like KSR's idea. Sometimes it would be nice to get away from time, but I think such a system would be highly annoying, and people would just opt not to stop their clocks every midnight for half an hour. So I realize it's not really practical, just whimsical science fiction that would be neat if it were to occur.

Zubrin's proposal is common sense, really. Seconds were initally created using astronomical observations. So they will have to be recreated on Mars using the same reasoning. So a Martian second would be 9445429143.675 oscillations of the Cesium 133 atom (as opposed to 9192631770 for a Terran second).

I think I'll make a digital Martian clock with some scraps I have around. Could be fun to get on Martian time.

Byron · 2002-10-02 05:26:38

You haven't given me any reasons your proposal would be a good idea. Which confirms what I already thought: persecution is it. That's the whole motive.

For reasons of PRACTICALITY. I have always hated the fact that the days of the week change for the numbered days of the month each year, and I just think it would make things so much easier and more convenient to have the same 'named' day of the week fall on the same day of the month, which of course, would require the year-end adjustment.

The thing is, what does it matter to you what day the Sabbath falls on? As long as people are free to practice their religion to the extent it is possible on Mars, whatever calender is being used really shouldn't matter...a day, week, year on Mars is DIFFERENT than Earth, as well as the fact there is no single, large moon going around once a month(which many religions depend on for their calenders).

I am all for allowing as much religious freedom as possible, and I'm sorry you interpret my "proposal" as "persecuting" religious people. I have no such motive whatsoever. If you think my calender proposal is a dumb idea, just come out and say that it's a dumb idea. But please don't tell me that I'm out to persecute people of religious faith, as that is most certainly NOT what I intended to do with my little calender...I just took a bunch of other ideas and melded them into my own. I will admit that satisfying various religious concerns was not at the top of my head at the time....but why should it be? Settling Mars and adaptation to its different environment will be a secular endeavor (At least that's my opinion )...and if a person or group of persons have difficulty in accepting the fact that Mars will force them to adapt to new ways of living (of which timekeeping is just a small part), then they really shouldn't come to Mars in the first place. I'm saying this NOT out of a desire to "exclude" people of faith from Mars...I'm saying this out of concern for those for whom tradition is an important part of their lives...traditions that may be difficult or even impossible to follow on Mars.

B

clark · 2002-10-02 06:19:06

That's not what we're arguing about. We're arguing about the weeks.

That pretty much says it all, dosen't it.

A.J.Armitage · 2002-10-02 15:50:37

For reasons of PRACTICALITY. I have always hated the fact that the days of the week change for the numbered days of the month each year, and I just think it would make things so much easier and more convenient to have the same 'named' day of the week fall on the same day of the month, which of course, would require the year-end adjustment.

Practicality, huh? In fact, you put it in all-caps.

And then your explaination for why practicality demands it is so weak, and stupid, and pointless, that it's obvious practicality has nothing whatsoever to do with it.

The thing is, what does it matter to you what day the Sabbath falls on? As long as people are free to practice their religion to the extent it is possible on Mars, whatever calender is being used really shouldn't matter...a day, week, year on Mars is DIFFERENT than Earth, as well as the fact there is no single, large moon going around once a month(which many religions depend on for their calenders).

You know perfectly well why. We've gone over it several times.

Either you let them off work on their Sabbath (which would be rather IMPRACTICAL, don't you think?), or you don't, which excludes them.

I am all for allowing as much religious freedom as possible, and I'm sorry you interpret my "proposal" as "persecuting" religious people. I have no such motive whatsoever.

Liar.

If you think my calender proposal is a dumb idea, just come out and say that it's a dumb idea.

No, I THOUGHT it was a dumb, ill-thought-out idea, but you didn't ignore the negative effects, you intended them.

But please don't tell me that I'm out to persecute people of religious faith, as that is most certainly NOT what I intended to do with my little calender...I just took a bunch of other ideas and melded them into my own. I will admit that satisfying various religious concerns was not at the top of my head at the time....but why should it be?

And as soon as I pointed out those concerns, you started complaining about religious people. From that point, all your argument consisted of arguments about why we shouldn't accomodate religious people, which means that not accomodating them is precisely your motive. You have yet to show any gain for ANYONE AT ALL from your proposal, but you have attempted to argue in favor of the costs it imposes on certain people. The costs are the reason, and the only reason.

Settling Mars and adaptation to its different environment will be a secular endeavor (At least that's my opinion )...and if a person or group of persons have difficulty in accepting the fact that Mars will force them to adapt to new ways of living (of which timekeeping is just a small part), then they really shouldn't come to Mars in the first place.

What a load of BS.

Do you really expect anyone to think that a calender YOU INVENTED is a inherent part of adapting to Mars?

I'm saying this NOT out of a desire to "exclude" people of faith from Mars...I'm saying this out of concern for those for whom tradition is an important part of their lives...traditions that may be difficult or even impossible to follow on Mars.

Yeah, that's why you're trying to deliberately add to the difficulties.

Palomar · 2002-10-02 16:19:39

I am all for allowing as much religious freedom as possible, and I'm sorry you interpret my "proposal" as "persecuting" religious people. I have no such motive whatsoever.
Liar.

*Erm...I don't see where Byron has been a liar or writing "bs". On the contrary; he has been forthright, consistent, and intellectually honest in his views...like usual.

--Cindy

Palomar · 2002-10-02 16:23:29

I think I'll make a digital Martian clock with some scraps I have around. Could be fun to get on Martian time.

*Hey Josh, that sounds really cool. If you do put it together, please consider posting a photo of it. Heck, consider putting a few together and selling them. If you ever opt for the latter project, give me a price quote. I'd build one myself, but...um....hmmm ???

I think I'll stick to baking. Hey, maybe we could do a little bartering...you make me a Mars clock and I'll bake you 5 dozen big chocolate chip cookies. Deal??

It never hurts to ask...

--Cindy

Byron · 2002-10-02 17:03:45

And then your explaination for why practicality demands it is so weak, and stupid, and pointless, that it's obvious practicality has nothing whatsoever to do with it.

Touche, touche....you really, really don't like my "proposal", huh? It'd be nice if you took a moment to sit back and think about the fact that my Martian calender is just a lark...an idea I'd thought I'd share with the members of this board... If my idea is as "weak, stupid and pointless", as you say it is, why haven't other members said so? It is by no means something I think should be "law" on Mars..it will be up to the people that actually move there to decide what calender they will use, out of dozens, even hundreds to choose from.

I just feel that in order to be fair to the community at large, that the calender should be as secular as possible, and provide ease of use. Of course, I cannot speak for a devoutly religious person, so my calender may indeed be a bad idea on Mars. But it's only fair to have everyone to have a look at it and make the determination that it is a fair calender for all...and so far, you are the only person that is flatly outright against my proposal...

Since I refuse to stoop to your level of direct insults, this is where I get off the train. You don't like my calender. I know that beyound a shadow of a doubt. Let's just leave it at that.

B

A.J.Armitage · 2002-10-02 18:02:09

ecrasez_l_infame;

You can see it directly above where I called him a liar and what I called BS. He claimed not to have religious bigotry as a motive, yet he has failed to produce ONE argument except that accepting "religious people's demands" is bad (and one which was so stupid no one should be expected to take it seriously). If he had some other reason, why did he fail even to MENTION it?

And what I called BS was exactly that. Are we seriously expected to believe that something about Mars requires weeks pegged to months? Please. The very idea that he would try something that transparent on me is insulting.

Byron;

You're such a disingenuous little snot.

If my idea is as "weak, stupid and pointless", as you say it is, why haven't other members said so?

What I called weak, stupid, and pointless was your attempt to justify it on grounds of practicality. In fact, it's impractical, and deliberately so, in order to harm a particular group you happen to dislike.

It is by no means something I think should be "law" on Mars..it will be up to the people that actually move there to decide what calender they will use, out of dozens, even hundreds to choose from.

Which is why you think people who don't like it should just stay off Mars, right?

Boy, I wonder who you have in mind.

I just feel that in order to be fair to the community at large, that the calender should be as secular as possible, and provide ease of use.

What you mean is, it should be actively anti-religious and should DELIBERATELY AVOID ease of use for "certain people".

Do you really expect me to think you have any interest at all in ease of use? Ease of use would be to carry over the system of weeks we use know; it accommodates religious people while costing others NOTHING. Meanwhile, you proposal denies religious people ease of use, if not excludes them altogether, while doing no good whatsoever to anyone else.

Any cost-benefit analysis can't but come down on my side, unless you consider causing problems for religious people a benefit.

Of course, I cannot speak for a devoutly religious person, so my calender may indeed be a bad idea on Mars.

It's a bad idea anywhere.

But it's only fair to have everyone to have a look at it and make the determination that it is a fair calender for all...and so far, you are the only person that is flatly outright against my proposal...

I suppose "for all" is a code word for "everyone I like".

Since I refuse to stoop to your level of direct insults, this is where I get off the train. You don't like my calender. I know that beyound a shadow of a doubt. Let's just leave it at that.

It's not just that I don't like it. I have reasons for not liking it, and unlike you, I'm unfraid to state my reasons.

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#1 2002-09-26 15:45:25

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#2 2002-09-26 16:13:22

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#3 2002-09-26 18:29:25

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#4 2002-09-27 21:38:17

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#5 2002-09-28 06:28:13

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#6 2002-09-28 20:10:09

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#7 2002-09-29 06:51:22

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#8 2002-09-29 14:29:43

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#9 2002-10-01 07:07:28

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#10 2002-10-01 13:24:24

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#11 2002-10-01 13:51:31

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#12 2002-10-01 14:00:46

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#13 2002-10-01 14:04:59

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#14 2002-10-01 14:16:40

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#15 2002-10-01 14:19:46

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#16 2002-10-01 14:40:51

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#17 2002-10-01 18:02:17

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#18 2002-10-01 22:29:57

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#19 2002-10-02 05:26:38

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#20 2002-10-02 06:19:06

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#21 2002-10-02 15:50:37

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#22 2002-10-02 16:19:39

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#23 2002-10-02 16:23:29

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#24 2002-10-02 17:03:45

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

#25 2002-10-02 18:02:09

Re: The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

Board footer