Fear mongering and life on Mars

Mark S · 2004-12-03 16:05:11

Here's a piece from the Times http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0, … ml]raising the possibility of Mars life threatening earth.

Keith Cowing of http://www.nasawatch.com/archives/000421.html#more]NASA Watch has a good rebuttal, contrasting the quote used in the article with the article and context it originally came from.

We don't need people making claims of extreme danger from Martian microbes on earth. Do we need to contain Martian samples if we bring them to earth? Yes. Is this doable? Yes! But we don't need people saying that containment is an impossibility and that Mars Sample Return should never happen.

Palomar · 2004-12-03 16:25:38

*Article pretty much slams Dr. Z:

On the opposite end of the spectrum are the irresponsible and ill-informed comments aerospace engineer and Mars Society President (and also an expert in arm waving) Bob Zubrin who dismisses any possible biolgical contamination issue by telling Knight-Ridder: "For NASA to spend hundred of millions of dollars to prevent martian microbes from coming to Earth in their samples would make as much sense as for the U.S. government to set up a program to stop travelers from bringing Canada Geese across the U.S.-Canadian border," wrote Mars Society president Robert Zubrin in an email."

*Is it just me or does this seem like more of a volatile subject than I'd anticipated??

--Cindy

Shaun Barrett · 2004-12-03 17:59:19

It's all sheer nonsense, if you ask me.
Far from placing the slightest credence in the hysterical rubbish peddled by these journalists, I personally don't think a Sample Return Mission (SRM) is even necessary or likely to tell us anything the first crewed mission won't clear up within a day of landing.
There's no logic at all in the idea of pathogenic martian bacteria for reasons I've ranted about at New Mars for years. The whole thing's a farce in my opinion. And the SRM (or SRMs, plural, because there'll have to be more than one of these horribly expensive white elephants) is just one more excuse to delay the first human mission for yet a further decade or so!
HOW FRUSTRATING!!! :bars2:

Mark S · 2004-12-03 19:02:00

*Is it just me or does this seem like more of a volatile subject than I'd anticipated??

It's surprisingly volatile. There are entire advocacy groups dedicated to stopping Mars Sample Return. I also believe that the curmudgeonly space editorialist Jeffrey Bell is of the mindset that if Mars has life, we should not send humans there. Then again, Bell seems to oppose all human spaceflight.

Trebuchet · 2004-12-03 19:36:26

I believe this is a sort of whacko extension of environmentalism that's taken hold in some palces, which thinks that everything is so fragile that if a person sneezes, he'll wipe out a hundred species. Honestly, if life were that fragile, it would have died out a long time ago. Besides, anything living on Mars would probably take one figurative whiff of oxygen and keel over dead. It would be as deadly as chlorine is to us. And on the other hand, anything that has survived Mars's harsh weather, scorching UV, extremely thin air, salty ground, etc, is hardly going to be fragile.

Shaun Barrett · 2004-12-03 19:56:01

And it'll be just standard terrestrial microbes anyway.
How long will it take before people realise Mars and Earth have been exchanging microbial spores on a regular basis for about 4 billion years? There is no quarantine.
NASA might as well send a Sample Return Mission to Chihuahua before sending astronauts into Mexico.

Please! Just send people to Mars and stop all the procrastination and B.S.

Palomar · 2004-12-03 21:22:38

*I probably shouldn't even suggest this, but what the heck:

If some folks in the industry really have their knickers in this much of a knot about the issue, why not a compromise of sorts (and no, I don't suppose I'm the first person to propose this; I can't believe someone else here hasn't suggested it somewhere along the line in a different but related thread): Send a manned crew to perform necessary experiments -- "sample return" right there on the Red Planet -- with the understanding that if something truly nasty and potentially seriously inimical to Earth is turned up, they're there for life and will die on Mars. One-way trip. If the on-site "sample return" looks okay and back contamination is not going to be a problem, come on home.

Everyone's happy, right? (Yeah, I know...don't say it...) :;):

Then again, Bell seems to oppose all human spaceflight.

*Yeah, Dr. DingDong's against everything it seems. Old sourpuss, that guy.

--Cindy

GraemeSkinner · 2004-12-04 03:33:48

What if the lab was on board the ISS, return the sample there, then perform the first tests upon it, when it's proved safe for return to Earth send the rest of the samples down.

I don't see a problem with sample returns to Earth in the first place though, the samples will be well contained on the journey to prevent contamination, and they'll only be cracked open and tested in sealed sterile labs - there's no real risk to the public at all if if the proper precautions are taken.

Graeme

Shaun Barrett · 2004-12-04 07:42:13

Yes, yes, yes!!
Cindy:-

If some folks in the industry really have their knickers in this much of a knot about the issue, why not a compromise of sorts (and no, I don't suppose I'm the first person to propose this; I can't believe someone else here hasn't suggested it somewhere along the line in a different but related thread): Send a manned crew to perform necessary experiments -- "sample return" right there on the Red Planet -- with the understanding that if something truly nasty and potentially seriously inimical to Earth is turned up, they're there for life and will die on Mars. One-way trip. If the on-site "sample return" looks okay and back contamination is not going to be a problem, come on home.

Exactly the point I've been espousing for quite some time.
First of all, the risk of any kind of serious pathogenic organisms existing on Mars is as close to zero as you're going to get outside of an entirely theoretical mathematical world; I would cheerfully go to Mars tomorrow and eat martian dirt - I'm that certain of it!
The first astronauts will be on Mars for 500+ days. In the extremely unlikely event that a lethal bug is lurking in the sand or the sub-surface water, the astronauts WON'T BE BRINGING IT HOME ... BECAUSE THEY'LL BE DEAD!!
500 days is a very generous incubation period. If the astronauts are fit and well at the end of that time, and ready and able to take off and head for home, then there's no problem. And that's exactly what will happen.
No problem!

The Sample Return Mission (SRM) will turn into multiple missions, costing billions for the probes themselves and for elaborate containment facilities back home, not to mention the many years it will cost us, because it's impossible to prove a negative.

What if the first mission landed in a sterile area, just a few hundred metres away from a seething hotbed of killer microbes?
Hmmm. We'd better send an SRM to several different types of terrain in different climatic zones, just to be sure we haven't missed anything nasty.
But wait! What if, despite all this, we miss something important and the first crew lands in one of only a handful of deadly germ pits?!!

You see? It's totally hopeless.
You either accept the vanishingly small possibility of infection with something exotic and just get on with the landings, or you procrastinate and prevaricate in an endless and futile attempt to reduce the mission's risk profile to zero - which it's never going to be anyway!

My opinion is that SRMs are the ultimate time-wasters if you're talking about biology. There's nothing living on Mars that we don't have here in abundance already - the logic behind that is inescapable if you examine the evidence.
If there is some lingering doubt about the purportedly exotic soil chemistry, and if you think the first crew's lungs will rot because of it, then by all means send one robotic chem-lab and check it out .. IN SITU!

But please, let's not fall prey to this hype and nonsense about Martian Measles ... for crying out loud!!
:realllymad:

GraemeSkinner · 2004-12-04 08:39:16

But please, let's not fall prey to this hype and nonsense about Martian Measles ... for crying out loud!!
:realllymad:

I don't think anyone with common sense will :;):

Graeme

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#1 2004-12-03 16:05:11

Re: Fear mongering and life on Mars

#2 2004-12-03 16:25:38

Re: Fear mongering and life on Mars

#3 2004-12-03 17:59:19

Re: Fear mongering and life on Mars

#4 2004-12-03 19:02:00

Re: Fear mongering and life on Mars

#5 2004-12-03 19:36:26

Re: Fear mongering and life on Mars

#6 2004-12-03 19:56:01

Re: Fear mongering and life on Mars

#7 2004-12-03 21:22:38

Re: Fear mongering and life on Mars

#8 2004-12-04 03:33:48

Re: Fear mongering and life on Mars

#9 2004-12-04 07:42:13

Re: Fear mongering and life on Mars

#10 2004-12-04 08:39:16

Re: Fear mongering and life on Mars

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