The need for a Moon direct *2* - ...continue here.

comstar03 · 2004-11-21 18:06:48

Rxke,

What music would you like to dance too ?

I know you can't see it and how to get there, that is your wall !!!! Do see the use for a large scale operation or where the funds and resources coming from and why ? . The same issues with GCNRevenger, he can't see , he has the same wall issue , you can see only so far.

When John F. Kennedy made a decision to go to the moon the first time and do it by the end of the 60's, we didn't have the technological advancements, we didn't understand the issues, we didn' t have any experience as a race leaving earth. NOW, WE DO, today we have the experience, technological advancement and the drive to meet these challenges head on.

We need a new bold statement, and this is it - " By 2030 humanity will be living permanently in space in earth orbit, on the moon, on mars and beyond with hundreds of personnel expanding the frontiers of humanity. "

That above statement can apply with government or private enterprise or both ( just for you Martian Republic ) because the world needs humanity to expand out into space, our race requires us to expand into space.

This statement requires a large scale mobilization into space and we don't have the resources to do it here, the moon is the calayst for the expansion and the reduction of overall costs in the expansion process.

I know at the end of the day, Rxke, and GCNRevenger you both can't see a solution to the issue of full scale mobilization into space for humanity, because it requires thinking beyond conventional processes and creating new methods , economics of scale unused on earth to date, and we must change our thinking processes, go beyond our current limitations to create space colonies and our race into space.

Because the earth and our sun are like a grain of sand in the Universe, and we need to see it that way in order to understand that the scaling up is still from a size of a grain of sand.

Grypd · 2004-11-21 18:48:18

When president Kennedy decided the goal would be the Moon, Nasa did respond, it threw money at the problems and it could do it, It had a blank cheque.

We do not have a blank cheque. But we still want to go the Moon and actually we want to do one better then Kennedys space dream we want to stay. So what do we do. Well we have to think clever. Zubrin showed that using Insitu resources reduces the cost of any operation. And that means we also use technologies invented after the Moon rush for other purposes as well.

When we do go to the Moon we will start small but we should go with the definite idea and backing to expand. We should design each mission to increase capacity so that the next mission and the next will find our base bigger and better. Why will we start small well we do not have the launchers or financial backing to do anything else. Only if we are willing to bring in extra complexity and assemble in orbit will this change. But even then there are limits to size with our current or planned launchers.

Rxke · 2004-11-21 23:57:26

What music? Any music you like, but you didn't tell me anything to make me dance, as usual...

Add Grypd to the list of people unable to see through walls, then...
You can see through walls? Impressive.

I'm sorry comstar, but I just can not take you seriously if you do not come up with anything more substantial than that.
While I agree 500% with your assessments of scale, etc, I keep asking you HOW?

And you evade the question, time and again. Telling us we "cannot see," blahblahblah.

AFAI can tell the only way to do it today, in your proposed timescale and monetary outlay is GWB doing the 2030 statement and then FORCING the rest of the world, by military power, to come up with the $$$$ Billions. Emperor Bush space tax. But he has other priorities.

Posting on a space advocacy board, saying you know how to fulfill our wildest dreams but not saying how...
Again: tell us how, and you'll be our saviour.

now you're acting like a would be prophet, but not a very convincing one. Sounds harsh, but we've seen our fair share of false prophets, so it's only natural we're being sceptical.
And I. personally, am getting tired of listening to pretty stories, for thhat's all that they are, until proven more than that.

Meanwhile, I'll follow the child steps of space exploration closely, fearing settlement won't come during my lifetime. Hoping it will... But fearing more and more, every day.
Don't play with the dreams of other people, comstar. That's just cruel.

comstar03 · 2004-11-22 06:01:46

Rxke,

Seriously, I understand where you are coming from, a person that comes on a Bulletin Board and says they have a plan to do what everyone wants to do in the timeframe they all want !!!

I haven't given detail because, I want more than providing the information to the forum to mean something. I am working on the implementation, that is the harder reality of the mission to create this powerhouse. To implement the stepping stone corporations that will mask the creation of the space operations poerhouse without bringing the eyes of governments and other industrialists.

I have been looking for small engineering, robotic and other associated industries that are required for long term development, my acquisition list is large but hidden within a list of unrelated corporates from onshore and offshore.

Then divert small amounts for resources (under the existing comporate names) from all these companies into the space operations corporate - all transactions off books as drawings and moved to establish the core infrastructure for the space operations corporate. ( learn from the best to hide activities -US Government )

We are developing new technology and processes that haven't been tried before for space expansion. We need to because of the larger objects that we need to move in space.

Rxke,

Again, I understand that you don't understand what I am doing because I have provided only limited detail information and overview of our thoughts behind the implementation and no facts on what we are doing and the complexities, the risks, the personnel / workforce and more so where the seed capital is coming from to build the infrastructure for the space assets to be created from.

When we are advanced enough that not group can catch up to our development then, we can explain in some detail to the Mars Society for about of implementation strategy, income stream and facilities.

John Creighton · 2004-11-22 08:41:36

I think it is a little unrealistic to expect to get too much money from private sources initially. If someone can come with a way great but I am not to interested in the discussion. To look at a maximum level of funding we should look to see what percentage of the GDP NASA got during the Kennedy era. We should also look at the tax rate then and ask is this the right level of taxation for the program. When then figure out how much money NASA would get annually if it got the same percentage of the GDP today. I personally don’t like planning on getting the maximum contribution for government. I would rather see what steps forward can be made with a small amount of money. That way the space exploration can continue to move forward despite the whims of the current administration. I really like the modularity of the CEV, I like the low cost space elevator proposed for the moon, I like electric population and I think JIMO is a great project. Combined with a space elevator a lunar mass driver and oxygen production might be worth while. It is worth further exploration. However, I don’t want to divert to many resources to the moon. The moon should be used to test the equipment for mars. Some science can be done in the mean time and if we end up with oxygen production on the moon great. Right now we are in the exploration stage when we get better we can move to the colonization stage. Lets try to walk before we can run.

GCNRevenger · 2004-11-22 10:04:20

Oooohkay Comstar...

Secret corperate conglomerate (cabal... run by The Illuminatti?) to expand humanity into space en-masse becaaaauuuse... "its a good thing?"

"Our," "we," etc...

Secret donors, illegal financial transactions, and other fun things.

Are you sure that you aren't Rick/ISA/etc Comstar?

The CEV project is probobly on the right track, abandoning the old Battlestar Galactica models and on a more sane modular aproach, given the limited funding. NASA is not ever going to have a massive increase in budget most likly, and for a Lunar program it really doesn't... all NASA really has to have to return to the Moon is the money going to Shuttle & ISS.

Grypd · 2004-11-22 13:48:06

We will have to rely on Goverment sources for a long time. It will be unlikely that any private corporation would see enough of a profit to envisage the incredible development and maintenance costs. As an example. The Fultron company did a survey on the potential of space tourism and discovered that it could be worth about 1Billion$ in total by 2021. This is not enough to allow that as a source of funds to propel space future.

Goverment will look to recoup some costs and it will be this that starts the returns of mined materials to the Earth. But no way will we expect to make profits in the short term from returning to the Moon etc. But in the long term this equation changes as more and more operations start in space then it will reverse and our having set up infrastructure on the Moon will pay for itself. Going to space is an investment and I doubt any company will go for it. Only Goverments have the possible chance to do this.

GCNRevenger · 2004-11-22 14:01:37

Even if the government paid every dime to develop hardware, set up infrastructure (Earth and Lunar RLVs, initial Lunar habitat, ISRU & nuclear plants), and gave every cent of space profit a tax exemption, I still don't think its worthwhile.

We really do have everything we need on Earth to prosperously support 8-9 billion people, and Lunar materials are not that big of a need. It doesn't take that much platinum for a fuel cell, and Deuterium or D/T fusion is not much harder then Helium-3 fusion.

I could eventually see some platinum-group metals being mined on the Moon in small quantities, but other then that, there isn't anything that useful in space for Earthly prosperity... If we apply ourselves technologically here.

Advanced fission power being wide-spread, converting to fusion. Use of clean coal power too. Limited deployment of (tries not to snicker) "renewables." Improved energy efficency, etc.

Advanced GMOs, yeilding enough food, enough biomass (oil), and enough bulk polymer feedstock that the end of economical fossil oil will not be catastrophic paired with fuel cells.

Nanotechnology and true industrial automation... we have barely touched the tip of the iceberg.

There is no great need for space, not materially, except as the next step of the exsistential need to explore.

Grypd · 2004-11-22 16:41:42

Im sorry GCNRevenger I cannot agree with you stating that there are enough resources to provide a comfortable living for a population of 9 Billion humans. We are struggling to provide water and food for 6 billion never mind clothing and medical help.

Our demands for materials and energy in the western world is increasing and increasing. Do you believe honestly that the western world would accept limits on what we could use and of its energy expenditure. Would you want to be the president that imposes a fuel limit on the American dream of driving anywhere. It takes about two ounces of platinum at the moment to provide a fuel cell that would power an ordinary small family car. The south africans which are the leading producer and have the most reserves have 1523 million ounces left in the world. This is all that is commercially possible to get with todays or reasonable development in technology.

With the development of commercial fusion we will provide more power but it really will only replace the greenhouse producer of Coal power stations. Deutrium or D/T fusion will like all power sources find itself competing against the fusion power stations provided by Helium 3. But Helium 3 will be able to draw power straight from the fusion reaction.

But we will find that our power demands will increase and increase. But not to power air conditioners / TVs but to provide the one resource we are running short off. This is drinkable water. Most water on our planet is undrinkable or polluted, to provide drinkable water to everyone will require considerable development. Especially with the changes our enviroment is showing.

So why go to the Moon, well if we want to provide the platinum we need then we should go to the same place the South Africans got theres, Space. It was an asteroid strike that provided the Platinum and Gold that the South Africans mine. We can get that minerals from the Moon and further out and when we need Helium 3 we can find it where it came from space.

And who says that you will ever be allowed to use Nanotechnology on Earth. The potential for the misuse of this technology is horrendous. We struggle to allow basic research into our makeup and limited cloning. We are truly terrified of so called frankenstein food going wrong so what makes the much potentially worse Nanotechnology going to fair any better.

comstar03 · 2004-11-22 21:47:45

The Main reasons for going to earth orbit, the moon, and beyond.

1. Population - yes, human population will grow and need newer places to expand into and grow in knowledge, have new experiences that can be brought to the human race.

2. Energy - yes the western countries expand our technology use. The only way to fix issues on earth is to develop newer environmental technologies such as fusion generation, solar generation, tranportation drive systems that don't require solid or carbon based fuels.

3. Other Resources - new to expand our race into space we need iron, titanium, copper, nickel, other minerals the planets are similar makeup to earth , but we might find newer minerals and other resources unable to be found on earth.

4. Exploration - To see and gain information, explore ideas , experiment with new concepts and explore the fundamental boundaries of our own knowledge.

We as a race need to move into space, We have a fundamental urge to explore, gain knowledge, to colonize space and nothing will stand in the way for our race to do that.

The first major step is the moon, we need the resources and advantages the moon offers for our future space development and colonization of our solar system and beyond.

SpaceNut · 2004-11-22 21:49:33

Water, Water every where but not a drop to drink... but that does not need to be that way, for some time a go I read an article detailing using salt water, filters and such to make drinkable water in the most arid coastal nations of the world but there must be other ways to clean up the water. Developing solar powered electolysy of containminated water that once seperated is then combined in a cleaning process by fuel cell use to create the clean water that is needed is just a thought.

As for looking to the moon or to mars for raw materials to import back to earth. Probably only the rawest would only finally pay for the cost of doing so. But colonization is its own raw material and the price is only paid in what ever can be made for others of this colony.

SpaceNut · 2004-11-23 10:26:04

NASA'S MOON-MARS INITIATIVE JEOPARDIZES IMPORTANT SCIENCE OPPORTUNITIES, ACCORDING TO AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY REPORT

A report released Monday by the American Physical Society (APS) criticized NASA's Vision for Space Exploration, saying that the plan will drain money from more promising research efforts. The report concluded that while human exploration is worthwhile, and manned missions to Mars would produce more science than robotic missions, the cost for such missions would be so high as to make them uncompelling on scientific grounds alone. The report also complained that the total cost of the exploration program remains unknown, and that shifts in NASA funding have jeopardized a number of science missions. The report concluded that human exploration should occur as part of a balanced program, and that robotic missions can do much of the desired science at a fraction of the cost. The report was released just after Congress approved a $16.2-billion NASA budget for 2005 that effectively fully funds the exploration program, although the exact distribution of funding may depend on the cost of shuttle return-to-flight efforts.

SpaceNut · 2004-11-23 11:18:25

Budget ax falls on lunar probe

Congress cut all but $10 million from the planned Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter mission, which was to map the moon and attempt to find water ice that could be critical to human missions. Fearing NASA would cut science programs to fund human exploration, the Congress demanded 25 percent of the instruments on the lunar satellite to be aimed at pure science, not future operations.

SpaceNut · 2004-11-23 12:34:41

NASA moves ahead on Bush's plan to return to moon, Mars

The United States is also seeking foreign partners for the hugely expensive project, hoping to save money and avoid wasteful duplication.
Space officials from 17 countries, including China, Russia, Japan and much of Europe, participated in a planning workshop in Washington last week. Representatives from each nation said they intend to participate in at least the planning phase.
The NASA paper proposed a series of unmanned missions to the moon between 2008 and 2011 to collect data and pick a landing site. Between 2011 and 2015, robots would prepare the site for a permanent manned base between 2015 and 2020.
It suggested the lunar south pole would be the best target for the first human outpost. Two previous U.S. spacecraft have spotted what appears to be frozen water in the polar region. The water could be used for drinking and also split into hydrogen and oxygen to make fuel for future trips.

Rxke · 2004-11-23 15:14:28

Re: the cut... In a way it makes some sense.. If ESA's lil' probe comes up with the goods (detailed mapping of surface and H abundancy,) they may have made a cost-effective decision.

IF, of course...

Grypd · 2004-11-23 17:37:54

Smart-1 is a great probe and technology demonstrator but it will struggle if it tries to look in those permanently dark areas that could hold hydrogen bonded in some form. Smart-1 will though do a decent survey of the physical makeup of the moon though stopping short of an actual mineral survey.

It will though tell us for sure as long as it remains operational just which areas recieve sunlight and tell us for sure for how long. A real benefit to further missions to remain permanently on the moon.

Of course I had hoped for a mission that would tell us for sure what minerals are where and what is in those dark areas. But im sure the Chinese or Indians will do it, all I hope is that they share.

Rxke · 2004-11-23 19:31:11

But im sure the Chinese or Indians will do it, all I hope is that they share.

Outsourcing, in other words... The single biggest job fear of I.T. personnel in America, if you read slashdot.

SpaceNut · 2004-11-23 19:36:44

That is also followed by many other forms of manufacturing, assembly of anything to name a few. Where business looks at the profit margin only to say that fixed amount are all that can be reduced which happens to be labor wages, Materials to engage in the business and others. Most do not try to change the effiency of a plant, or to reduce the error introduce by the human factor.

SpaceNut · 2004-11-23 20:34:58

Well here is just what you are proposing but for the moon.
A trip around the moon? It could happen

CONCEPTUAL DESIGN OF A LUNAR SHUTTLE TRANSPORT VEHICLE
Just doing a search on Russian translunar mission vehicle concept.

Edit: poll data
What do you think of adapting the Soyuz for around-the-moon missions? * 250 responses

It will never fly because it's too risky.
4%

Technically possible, but impossibly expensive.
28%

It just might work.
61%

None of the answers above reflect my opinion.
7%

John Creighton · 2004-11-24 08:44:08

But not this time, today’s inventors insist. “It’s a unique and non-obvious idea and nobody thought of it before,” Miller insists. And the strategy has a patent pending, he announced, that he expected the Russians to honor. As to the specific features of the patent that make it illegal for any other spacefaring nation to use the idea without permission, Miller was circumspect: “I’d rather not describe the aspects of that,” he stated.
Extending the protections of terrestrial law to outer space may not be entirely unearthly, Goff told MSNBC.com. “I think it may be quite possible that the specific way they want to use the Soyuz is actually patentable,” he wrote.

Form the above article. I often think it is too easy to get a patent. Do you microsoft has a patent for the way they draw rectangles on the screen.

SpaceNut · 2004-11-29 14:24:50

Scientists Call For Global Cooperation In Space Programme

Scientists from leading space nations closed a conference on moon exploration here last Friday with a call for global cooperation to achieve a permanent human lunar base by 2024.

GraemeSkinner · 2004-11-30 04:49:30

http://www.spacedaily.com/news/lunar-04 … Scientists Call For Global Cooperation In Space Programme
Scientists from leading space nations closed a conference on moon exploration here last Friday with a call for global cooperation to achieve a permanent human lunar base by 2024.

It would be nice if it happened, real cooperation between nations for a lunar mission, I'd truly like to see it happen, but it would need to be well organized or nations may promise to take part only to withdraw their support half way through when the costs start to rise.

The ISS is a good example of scientific cooperation that did not quite work out as planned

It's got to happen at some point though, scientific cooperation - perhaps we'd already be on Mars if the nations had cooperated years ago.

Graeme

SpaceNut · 2004-11-30 05:29:56

Last I had checked on the lunar missions from various nations
Japan 2006 seen recent article about financial troubles
china 2008 possible mission, I think this relies on the next manned mission success
India 2007 2008 looking for small sensor payloads to add to it
ESA 2008 orbiter, 2009 lander
USA LRO last I checked was struggling under budget woes for the 2007 2008 ball park

Basically all are targeting what each nation believe it needs to carry on any sort of manned mission in the future. I do not believe that there is much cooperation in the planning as to what each will carry on for there own specific missions. Then again there has been little on the data that each would collect or the sharing let alone the paying a fee for that data if it were useful towards the SEV.

Edit
so what do we really need to go for when we can find moon rocks here on earth.
Moon rock found in Antarctica Meteorite-hunting team makes rare discovery
041130_space_moonrock_hmed11a.hmedium.jpg

SpaceNut · 2004-12-01 14:59:36

Udaipur Declaration from the Sixth International Conference on the Exploration and Utilization of the Moon

The Sixth International Lunar Conference was held November 22-26 in Udaipur, India hosted by PRL and ISRO, and cosponsored by the International Lunar Exploration Working Group (ILEWG) and ESA. The President of India, Dr. Abdul Kalam, addressed the group with insightful vision and highly relevant recommendations for international activities in exploration of the Moon, "for the benefit of human kind".
As we move forward with mission implementation, we urge the space agencies to study and coordinate international lunar infrastructures and assets, such as telecommunication, navigation, logistics, lunar internet, that are necessary for an effective lunar exploration. We specifically recommend coordination of international efforts for the establishment of "standards" to facilitate lunar exploitation and settlement - e.g., use of the metric system, well-characterized lunar soil simulants, common data formats and instrument interfaces; frequency, and power.
We urge establishment of a standard lunar geodetic network. We also recommend that the "Moon Treaty" be revisited, refined, and revised as necessary in light of the present-day impetus for expeditions, both robotic and human, to the Moon by several nations.

SpaceNut · 2004-12-02 05:51:33

Well as plans shape up to visit the moon robotically be fore man does so is the amount of change taking place by those that had already committed to sending probes.

ISRO plays new moony tune

In a departure from the earlier plan, the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) has decided that its 2007-08 unmanned moon mission will go for gold: a landing.

According to the revised flight plan, the lunar orbiter will carry a 25-kg "impacter". At a certain point when the craft enters lunar orbit, the "impacter" will detach from the mother craft and head for the moon's surface.
The "impacter" will kick up lunar dust on landing on the moon, whose chemical composition will be analysed by scientists.

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#176 2004-11-21 18:06:48

Re: The need for a Moon direct *2* - ...continue here.

#177 2004-11-21 18:48:18

Re: The need for a Moon direct *2* - ...continue here.

#178 2004-11-21 23:57:26

Re: The need for a Moon direct *2* - ...continue here.

#179 2004-11-22 06:01:46

Re: The need for a Moon direct *2* - ...continue here.

#180 2004-11-22 08:41:36

Re: The need for a Moon direct *2* - ...continue here.

#181 2004-11-22 10:04:20

Re: The need for a Moon direct *2* - ...continue here.

#182 2004-11-22 13:48:06

Re: The need for a Moon direct *2* - ...continue here.

#183 2004-11-22 14:01:37

Re: The need for a Moon direct *2* - ...continue here.

#184 2004-11-22 16:41:42

Re: The need for a Moon direct *2* - ...continue here.

#185 2004-11-22 21:47:45

Re: The need for a Moon direct *2* - ...continue here.

#186 2004-11-22 21:49:33

Re: The need for a Moon direct *2* - ...continue here.

#187 2004-11-23 10:26:04

Re: The need for a Moon direct *2* - ...continue here.

#188 2004-11-23 11:18:25

Re: The need for a Moon direct *2* - ...continue here.

#189 2004-11-23 12:34:41

Re: The need for a Moon direct *2* - ...continue here.

#190 2004-11-23 15:14:28

Re: The need for a Moon direct *2* - ...continue here.

#191 2004-11-23 17:37:54

Re: The need for a Moon direct *2* - ...continue here.

#192 2004-11-23 19:31:11

Re: The need for a Moon direct *2* - ...continue here.

#193 2004-11-23 19:36:44

Re: The need for a Moon direct *2* - ...continue here.

#194 2004-11-23 20:34:58

Re: The need for a Moon direct *2* - ...continue here.

#195 2004-11-24 08:44:08

Re: The need for a Moon direct *2* - ...continue here.

#196 2004-11-29 14:24:50

Re: The need for a Moon direct *2* - ...continue here.

#197 2004-11-30 04:49:30

Re: The need for a Moon direct *2* - ...continue here.

#198 2004-11-30 05:29:56

Re: The need for a Moon direct *2* - ...continue here.

#199 2004-12-01 14:59:36

Re: The need for a Moon direct *2* - ...continue here.

#200 2004-12-02 05:51:33

Re: The need for a Moon direct *2* - ...continue here.

Board footer

Re: The need for a Moon direct 2 - ...continue here.

Re: The need for a Moon direct 2 - ...continue here.

Re: The need for a Moon direct 2 - ...continue here.

Re: The need for a Moon direct 2 - ...continue here.

Re: The need for a Moon direct 2 - ...continue here.

Re: The need for a Moon direct 2 - ...continue here.

Re: The need for a Moon direct 2 - ...continue here.

Re: The need for a Moon direct 2 - ...continue here.

Re: The need for a Moon direct 2 - ...continue here.

Re: The need for a Moon direct 2 - ...continue here.

Re: The need for a Moon direct 2 - ...continue here.

Re: The need for a Moon direct 2 - ...continue here.

Re: The need for a Moon direct 2 - ...continue here.

Re: The need for a Moon direct 2 - ...continue here.

Re: The need for a Moon direct 2 - ...continue here.

Re: The need for a Moon direct 2 - ...continue here.

Re: The need for a Moon direct 2 - ...continue here.

Re: The need for a Moon direct 2 - ...continue here.

Re: The need for a Moon direct 2 - ...continue here.

Re: The need for a Moon direct 2 - ...continue here.

Re: The need for a Moon direct 2 - ...continue here.

Re: The need for a Moon direct 2 - ...continue here.

Re: The need for a Moon direct 2 - ...continue here.

Re: The need for a Moon direct 2 - ...continue here.

Re: The need for a Moon direct 2 - ...continue here.