Race and Culture - A Changing Europe - Opening a mighty can of worms...

Gennaro · 2004-10-21 19:46:38

The "rising" anti-semitism in France and Europe in general is primarily related to the Muslim immigration, especially the violent forms. The article was honest to point this out, but perhaps it should be repeated.

When speaking of anti-semitism, or what is labeled as anti-semitism, it's important to understand that this accusation is applied to several unrelated phenomena, some of which would vehemently deny being anti-semitic in the first place.

Having taken part in several net discussions related to immigration over the past few years, I've also stumbled upon discussions where Jewry is seen as a problem in one way or another. Thereby, I have achieved some understanding about the way whites (can't say anything about the Muslims) being critical of Jewry think and argue, a matter which was previously clouded in great mystery for me as well. I simply could not comprehend the reasons behind such feelings.

Something which is of great importance to understand regarding this matter is that people opposing or being critical of Jewry/Jewish culture etc generally do not seem to do so out of thinking that Jews are inferior or subhuman in any way, but on the contrary that they are intelligent, self-conscious, very ethno-centric, generally resentful of western culture, immensely influential and really downright threatening, or at least a certain part of them are. So it's an antipathy borne out of fear of real or imagined Jewish acts, goals and agendas and in that sense essentially a reactive notion. In other words, it's not some antipathy sprung from irrationally loathing Woody Allen films.
In fact, you can see much of the same sentiments expressed by traditionalist members of the American Right, who are critical of the Bush regime and the Iraqi War, although there's a certain amount of reading between the lines involved in publications like "The American Conservative" and among the Buchanan crowd.

To come to grips with these opinions I think the best one can do is simply to read what proponents of them write and think themselves.
Notable names in this area would be Kevin MacDonald, who is an evolutionary psychologist of Berkeley University (I think) and who has written several scholarly works on Jewish culture, David Duke who I believe is affiliated with an American group called "National Alliance", probably regarded as Neo-Nazi, Joseph Sobran, who's some sort of web active columnist, and perhaps Israel Shahak and a revisionist historian like David Irving (or other revisionists), who simply seems to have engaged in the theme as a result of being harrased by "anti-hate" groups for years.

These are the people who come to mind and all of them have a web presence to a larger or smaller extent. It should perhaps also be stated in all fairness they would most likely denounce violent or vicous acts against Jews, synagogues, Jewish cemetaries and all of that stupid nonsense.

I don't keep any bookmarks for this kind of stuff, but a simple web search would probably do.

Happy reading!

Edit: David Duke does not seem to be related to what's known as the "National Alliance" on closer inspection, which on the other hand does seem to be quite naziesque in some peculiar American way. Oh well, I'm not that well aware about these fringe groups.

Palomar · 2004-11-09 20:09:33

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u … e]Violence & retaliation in the Netherlands

--Cindy

Gennaro · 2004-11-10 06:24:05

Yup, consequences are beginning to come down hard on nations, like Holland or Sweden, who believed raw nature was a state of harmony and therefore nothing needed regulation; that man, at least if he wasn't white and male, was good by nature and that artifice, like the state, and according to the same warped discourse (being a "construct"), patriotism and national community, were inherently bad.

Watching the news yesterday on the murder of van Gogh, in many ways resembling the murder of Pim Fortuyn, the entire emphasis was habitually put on avoiding collective guilt just because of some rotten eggs in the Muslim community (like we didn't know that!) and this to such an extent that in the end, it was almost as though the Dutch were really the guilty party of the acts committed against them, their principles and their society. Typical.

Whoever were the arsonists putting fire to a muslim school, the practice does conform to a pattern observed at closer distance. In Malmö, the third largest city/town in Sweden, several schools have burnt in the last couple of years, although these were ordinary schools located in immigrant dense areas. In other words, deeds not done by right-wing extremists.
If I know anything about organized right-wingers, immigration critics, National Socialists etc, terror or initiating violence does not constitute any of their methods. This is typical of the other side however, the one of conformist, left-wing, free immigration extremists, supported by and large by the establishment, media and government. Don't know about the Netherlands, conditions could be different there.

All this talk about collective guilt, and the first thing that happens are people trying to set fire to churches...

Cobra Commander · 2004-11-10 06:29:57

Violence & retaliation in the Netherlands

Illustrative of a simple but unpopular truth. When one society takes in large numbers of people from another culture and makes no real effort to assimilate them, this is what happens. Once Islamic fundies kill to punish an offense against Islam they have cast not only themselves but the entire Islamic community into the role of "hostile alien element". Islamic instutions can't avoid being perceived as a symbol of that alien element, and responded to accordingly.

Not an endorsement of such tactics, BTW.

The lesson is simple and need not even be in the least bit bigoted. Assimilate immigrants. It's important. If not prepared to do so, do everyone a favor and don't let them in.

Gennaro · 2004-11-10 06:37:12

The lesson is simple and need not even be in the least bit bigoted. Assimilate immigrants. It's important. If not prepared to do so, do everyone a favor and don't let them in.

Right!

In fact, I'd like to go further. Refugees need shelter, but what about people claiming to be refugees but who aren't and are let in anyway? I see no reason to assimilate those, just hand them a one-way ticket.

Similarly, by the time people "kill to punish an offense against Islam" they have forfieted their right to asylum, whatever their original predicament.

Palomar · 2004-11-20 09:34:19

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s … ation]What Geert Wilder has to say...

*...reaction to trouble in the Netherlands. I agree with him. If you move to a different nation, abide by its laws, speak its language and assimilate -- WELCOME. If not, go home or we'll show you the door.

Looks like a big Wake Up Call.

--Cindy

Grypd · 2004-11-20 10:01:57

On Thursday in the High court in Glasgow, two youths where found quilty of a serious race hate crime.

These two where members of a small gang who abducted a 15 year old seriously assaulted him, tortured him, drove him around scotland till they eventually took him to a quiet spot where he was stabbed and then dosed with petrol and set on fire while still alive. They did not know the boy they murdered in fact the only reason they went for him was he was of a different race.

The victim was white, the gang asian. This has caused a wave of horror to sweep Scotland. All communities cant understand why? One of the Gangs father was so horrified that his son had done this that he has completely ignored him. Only when a national paper found him at his work did he even find out the result of the case when asked for a comment.

It is never the majority of any race that are a problem, most people just want a good life. The minority who are in one word scum, these will allways cause problems just because they are evil, twisted sociopaths.

BWhite · 2004-11-20 12:19:17

The only long term solution is to find a common "human" identity that supercedes lesser divisions.

An alien invasion fleet spotted on radar about 40 years away from Earth would be quite helpful, right about now.

dickbill · 2004-11-20 12:21:05

On Thursday in the High court in Glasgow, two youths where found quilty of a serious race hate crime.
These two where members of a small gang who abducted a 15 year old seriously assaulted him, tortured him, drove him around scotland till they eventually took him to a quiet spot where he was stabbed and then dosed with petrol and set on fire while still alive. They did not know the boy they murdered in fact the only reason they went for him was he was of a different race.
The victim was white, the gang asian. This has caused a wave of horror to sweep Scotland. All communities cant understand why? One of the Gangs father was so horrified that his son had done this that he has completely ignored him. Only when a national paper found him at his work did he even find out the result of the case when asked for a comment.
It is never the majority of any race that are a problem, most people just want a good life. The minority who are in one word scum, these will allways cause problems just because they are evil, twisted sociopaths.

France had gang organized rapes, called "tournantes" : everybody waits for his "turn" to the victim.
After being raped, one of the victim was set in fire. Needless to say that the parents of the guys also expressed incomprehension.
Is it evil, sociopathy spreading in the teenagers ? the effects of violent movies ? the schock of cultures (rapist where often second generation immigrants poorly assimilated), everything ?
I think basically "evil", in its different forms.

It would be interesting to study really these cases for prevention purpose. I don't mean to set up an Ashcroft-like legislation in Europe, but there must be some easy social indicators that could be used tp prevent that.
The police should be able to consult the school records and perform a series of tests, like calling the parents at night and ask them if their son is at home or at least if they know where he is.
The so-called "educators" who often deal with hard kids don't have enough power too.
I left France 10 years ago, at that time it was very obviuos that massive immigration created problems in the society.
Rather to acknowelge the problem, the left government in power at that time, but also the precedant governments, decided that there was no problem, so that nothing should be done. They were in complete denial.
4 years ago, Chirac almost lost the elections based on the insecurity issue. All these caviar eating leftists and this policy of denial and of culpabilisation of the french population just shifted the votes more and more in the right-wing (the FN in France is just the equivalent of the republican party in the US). Then Chirac decided that something must be done to calm the angry people, in a moment of lucidity, he hired Nicholas Sarkozy at the interior ministry.
We can safely say that Sarkozy is a consequnence of the Le=Pen vote in France. Since that time I believe that Sarkozy prooved to be very efficient, he is not in constant "denial" of problems and so he takes efficient mesures.
That also show to you guys in the US that you need a counter-power. And you have any right now. When Chirac and the Left saw that surge of the right wing, they were afraid. That's the only reason why Chirac took mesures. They were afraid.
Without Le Pen, you would not have Sarkozy and you can be sure that stories of corruptions in the political milieu, social problems etc would have been denied once again and ignored.

No counterpower means more problem, the US is going to discover that law in the next years.

Something else. Why 30-40 years ago, when it was obviuos that a massive immigration in France would disrupst the social fabric of the national cohesion, people still set up these waves of immigration that change the society and even the culture of France ?
"They" did it because the only God that "they" worship was MONEY, not France it her Values : yop, bring me 1000 illiterate immigrants and make them working hard in my factories for two cents/hour. That will make mad the regular french worker that want to be paid honorably but I don't care !
Who is "they" ? anybody has ideas ?

BWhite · 2004-11-20 12:25:53

Islamic immigrants are a threat to Europe because of birth rates. And because they will work for low wages to "infiltrate" into low paying jobs no one else wants.

As was said, factory owners (on the right?) want cheap wages. Some leaders (on the left) refuse to crack down.

Chirac is to be praised for his rule on headscarves.

"They" did it because the only God that "they" worship was MONEY, not France it her Values : yop, bring me 1000 illiterate immigrants and make them working hard in my factories for two cents/hour. That will make mad the regular french worker that want to be paid honorably but I don't care !

Globalization means this phenomenon will only increase.

Trebuchet · 2004-11-20 13:08:20

The only long term solution is to find a common "human" identity that supercedes lesser divisions.
An alien invasion fleet spotted on radar about 40 years away from Earth would be quite helpful, right about now.

The ultimate wag-the-dog scenario. If the US, Russia, China, and EU collaborated on it, there's really not much other people can do about it, and it gives you the best possible excuse to slap around the usual suspects for starting wars (ever notice that, apart from WWII, all the modern wars are set in motion by some pissant little country that has no particular world power? (1)) into some semblance of peace. Let's put Cobra on this idea.

(1) Whether you agree with the war or not, the late Iraq War is definitely thought of as being part of the greater War on Terror in the US, so that war is not a counterexample. The only example of a major power starting up a major war in the past hundred years is World War II.

John Creighton · 2004-11-20 13:14:58

The only example of a major power starting up a major war in the past hundred years is World War II.

Of course you can blame that one partly on WWI.

BWhite · 2004-11-20 13:30:16

The only example of a major power starting up a major war in the past hundred years is World War II.
Of course you can blame that one partly on WWI.

And, what was Japan's excuse?

They feared the United States cutting off Japanese access to petroleum. Pearl Harbor was pre-emptive strike seeking to secure trade routes through Indonesia etc. . .

to guarantee that raw materials could continue to flow to Japan.

= = =

Today, China is a rapidly growing user of petroleum. If the US knocks off Iran, we will be in a position to strangle Chinese access to Persian Gulf oil. Attacking Iran might well provoke a larger war with China!

= = =

Its like a sweater. Can't pull one thread without unraveling the whole thing!

BWhite · 2004-11-20 13:34:05

The only long term solution is to find a common "human" identity that supercedes lesser divisions.
An alien invasion fleet spotted on radar about 40 years away from Earth would be quite helpful, right about now.
The ultimate wag-the-dog scenario. If the US, Russia, China, and EU collaborated on it, there's really not much other people can do about it, and it gives you the best possible excuse to slap around the usual suspects for starting wars (ever notice that, apart from WWII, all the modern wars are set in motion by some pissant little country that has no particular world power? (1)) into some semblance of peace. Let's put Cobra on this idea.

I Agree!

If Bush would work with Chirac (and Putin) as partners, not as "we command, you follow" I believe we could destroy Islamo-fascism very quickly, indeed.

Rxke · 2004-11-20 13:47:49

Someone please define Islamo-fascism?

Does this mean Shariat-run regimes or...

BWhite · 2004-11-20 14:02:11

Someone please define Islamo-fascism?
Does this mean Shariat-run regimes or...

IMHO, Bin Laden is an Islamo-fascist who desires that every Muslim country be merged into a larger caliphate ruled by clerics. And that this caliphate eventually encompass the entire world.

Read bin Laden's speeches, he actually knows a reasonable amount of European history and the rise of the "nation-state" as a unit of political organization.

Some accuse anyone proud to be Islamic of being an Islamo-fascist. I do not.

= = =

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_of_Westphalia]Peace of Westphalia:

In the aftermath of the 11 March 2004 Madrid attacks, the terrorist network al-Qaida also declared that "the international system built-up by the West since the Treaty of Westphalia will collapse; and a new international system will rise under the leadership of a mighty Islamic state." [3] (http://www.themedialine.org/news/news_d … ewsID=5420) Also, it is often claimed that globalization is bringing an evolution of the international system past the sovereign Westphalian state.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation-state]Nation-state and this quote from the first link:

It is often said that the Peace of Westphalia initiated the modern fashion of diplomacy as it marked the beginning of the modern system of nation-states. Subsequent wars were not about issues of religion, but rather revolved around issues of state. This allowed Catholic and Protestant Powers to ally, leading to a number of major realignments.

Rxke · 2004-11-20 14:55:21

... every Muslim country be merged into a larger caliphate ruled by clerics. And that this caliphate eventually encompass the entire world.

Thanks, Bill.

I think 90% of the 'insurgents' are relatively young people, 'merely' pissed off because their brother, or sister, or... got killed in the war. And would not really be happy with a caliphate, as envisioned by bin Laden.

Then again... there were some pretty enlightened periods in Islam history, where Jews and Christians actually *liked* to live among them...

If only an enlightened Islamic inspired 'uniter' could stand up, and...

Nah, keep dreaming... Though.. there are places, like Saudi-Arabia, that would be *perfect* to go through a renaissance...

Rxke · 2004-11-20 14:57:11

Err... for all clearness: I do not mean a WORLD uniter.
just ... an enlightened, non new-world-order type of person.

Trebuchet · 2004-11-20 15:03:48

BWhite -

Actually, I think that Bush and Putin do work together informally. There have been scattered glipses that the US and Russia exchange intelligence on terrorism, etc, and otherwise work together without explicitly working together. I believe no formal alliance or agreements have been made precisely because the threat is very diffuse and decentralized. The only real glitch in the relationship is over Iran's reactors (and I think that Russia is acting out of honest cynicism - they know that neither we nor Israel will tolerate the existence of those reactors and facilities, and have decided to make a fast buck out of the mullahs before said mullahs are dead).

With France, it's primarily the huge clash of personalities between Bush and Chirac; they detest each other immensely, and unless some hideous catastrophe forces them to work together, they're not going to work together. If France has a new President, then US-French relations will probably improve... honestly, they haven't been worse since the 1860's, so it's a good guess.

BWhite · 2004-11-20 15:03:52

... every Muslim country be merged into a larger caliphate ruled by clerics. And that this caliphate eventually encompass the entire world.
Thanks, Bill.
I think 90% of the 'insurgents' are relatively young people, 'merely' pissed off because their brother, or sister, or... got killed in the war. And would not really be happy with a caliphate, as envisioned by bin Laden.
Then again... there were some pretty enlightened periods in Islam history, where Jews and Christians actually *liked* to live among them...
If only an enlightened Islamic inspired 'uniter' could stand up, and...
Nah, keep dreaming... Though.. there are places, like Saudi-Arabia, that would be *perfect* to go through a renaissance...

Rxke, I agree with this 100%

I go on to say, al Qaeda wants a caliphate, not the 90% or 95% of "average Joe" Iraqis or Iranians.

Therefore, when we US-ians trample about those countries, bin Laden easily recruits the family members of those we harm.

al Qaeda sets a fire and the US throws gasoline on it.

Grypd · 2004-11-20 15:55:18

China has real problems
It has not enough natural gas or petrol. It expected to be able to buy this from Russia. But Russia is not as desperate and in better economic state than in the 1990s where it would sell anything to China just to get some cashflow. It expected that Putin would authorise a pipeline from Siberia to China that would alleviate this problem. But this did not happen and as Russia becomes stronger it is less likely too.

This is why China will talk with Iran it is a tiger economy with a tigers demand for resources and fuel. It needs these to carry on and Iran is seen as one place it can get it. China will definitly want to have Islamic Fundamentalism curbed. It has states in its western area which has problems with these organisations. Its western sector is a dangerous area, it owns part of Kashmir which India and Pakistan where willing to fight over and even threaten to use Nuclear weapons. It also borders afghanistan.

Gennaro · 2004-11-20 19:01:54

IMHO, Bin Laden is an Islamo-fascist who desires that every Muslim country be merged into a larger caliphate ruled by clerics. And that this caliphate eventually encompass the entire world.

In other words, Bin Ladin is just a pious Muslim, believing what every faithful Muslim ought to believe. I don't see any "Fascistic" quality in Bin Ladin at all.

Then again... there were some pretty enlightened periods in Islam history, where Jews and Christians actually *liked* to live among them...

Yes, generally when Islam was in decadence and its rulers didn't take their simplistic religion all that seriously. However, it has been rather hard to live as a Christian among Muslims most of the time and then Jews and Christians are even relatively favoured as so called Dhimmi along with the Zoroastrians, allowed to keep their religion as long as they pay special taxes and humiliate themselves. Favours not precisely granted to others.

I'm not especially afraid of Iran. My impression is that the country has been headed away from Fundamentalism for some time now. I don't believe they will supply nuclear weapons to eventual terrorists. They are probably not suicidal.

Euler · 2004-11-20 19:22:47

It has not enough natural gas or petrol. It expected to be able to buy this from Russia. But Russia is not as desperate and in better economic state than in the 1990s where it would sell anything to China just to get some cashflow. It expected that Putin would authorise a pipeline from Siberia to China that would alleviate this problem. But this did not happen and as Russia becomes stronger it is less likely too

The reason why Russia is not building a pipeline to China is not because Putin is reluctant to trade with China; In fact, Sino-Russian bilateral trade has been expanding by 20% per year and China will soon be Russia's largest trading partner. What actually happened was that Japan offered more money for a pipeline to the Pacific than China was willing to offer for a pipeline into China. Japan simply out-bid China.

This is why China will talk with Iran it is a tiger economy with a tigers demand for resources and fuel. It needs these to carry on and Iran is seen as one place it can get it. China will definitly want to have Islamic Fundamentalism curbed. It has states in its western area which has problems with these organisations. Its western sector is a dangerous area, it owns part of Kashmir which India and Pakistan where willing to fight over and even threaten to use Nuclear weapons. It also borders afghanistan.

China has also made oil deals with Sudan and Nigeria, and is financing pipelines in Kazakhstan and Venezuela. China is now the world's second largest oil consumer.

Dook · 2004-11-20 19:49:03

A pipeline from Venezuela to China?

MarsDog · 2004-11-21 00:59:14

I'm not especially afraid of Iran.

http://67.15.90.110/article.pl?sid=03/08/25/1534210] The anti-American backlash that toppled the Shah in 1979 shook the whole region and helped spread Islamic militancy.

Iranians will distrust for a long time.

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#76 2004-10-21 19:46:38

Re: Race and Culture - A Changing Europe - Opening a mighty can of worms...

#77 2004-11-09 20:09:33

Re: Race and Culture - A Changing Europe - Opening a mighty can of worms...

#78 2004-11-10 06:24:05

Re: Race and Culture - A Changing Europe - Opening a mighty can of worms...

#79 2004-11-10 06:29:57

Re: Race and Culture - A Changing Europe - Opening a mighty can of worms...

#80 2004-11-10 06:37:12

Re: Race and Culture - A Changing Europe - Opening a mighty can of worms...

#81 2004-11-20 09:34:19

Re: Race and Culture - A Changing Europe - Opening a mighty can of worms...

#82 2004-11-20 10:01:57

Re: Race and Culture - A Changing Europe - Opening a mighty can of worms...

#83 2004-11-20 12:19:17

Re: Race and Culture - A Changing Europe - Opening a mighty can of worms...

#84 2004-11-20 12:21:05

Re: Race and Culture - A Changing Europe - Opening a mighty can of worms...

#85 2004-11-20 12:25:53

Re: Race and Culture - A Changing Europe - Opening a mighty can of worms...

#86 2004-11-20 13:08:20

Re: Race and Culture - A Changing Europe - Opening a mighty can of worms...

#87 2004-11-20 13:14:58

Re: Race and Culture - A Changing Europe - Opening a mighty can of worms...

#88 2004-11-20 13:30:16

Re: Race and Culture - A Changing Europe - Opening a mighty can of worms...

#89 2004-11-20 13:34:05

Re: Race and Culture - A Changing Europe - Opening a mighty can of worms...

#90 2004-11-20 13:47:49

Re: Race and Culture - A Changing Europe - Opening a mighty can of worms...

#91 2004-11-20 14:02:11

Re: Race and Culture - A Changing Europe - Opening a mighty can of worms...

#92 2004-11-20 14:55:21

Re: Race and Culture - A Changing Europe - Opening a mighty can of worms...

#93 2004-11-20 14:57:11

Re: Race and Culture - A Changing Europe - Opening a mighty can of worms...

#94 2004-11-20 15:03:48

Re: Race and Culture - A Changing Europe - Opening a mighty can of worms...

#95 2004-11-20 15:03:52

Re: Race and Culture - A Changing Europe - Opening a mighty can of worms...

#96 2004-11-20 15:55:18

Re: Race and Culture - A Changing Europe - Opening a mighty can of worms...

#97 2004-11-20 19:01:54

Re: Race and Culture - A Changing Europe - Opening a mighty can of worms...

#98 2004-11-20 19:22:47

Re: Race and Culture - A Changing Europe - Opening a mighty can of worms...

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