ATTN NovaMarsollia

axis · 2002-09-26 18:13:51

***** my head is spinning *****

Obviously I'm come across a spirited band of debaters... I also enjoy a good debate on controversial topics - but I have rarely seen such jousting on particulars. I especially didn't expect to see this when so much of the technology and science to inhabit Mars is unproven. Perhaps my expectation for ?dreamers? and ?optimists? was nieve as obviously the higher moral ground seems to be the point to contest.

I have recently been reading one of Zubrin's books - I think the title might be "Entering Space".. it's close to that anyways. In reading this thread - yawn - it got me thinking about a couple pages he wrote about how the people that may eventually settle Mars would be able to write their own martian constitution. He suggested several "improvements" to the US constitution by adding more and more technicalities - if memory serves he listed about 10-15 more rights - including "The Right to Privacy" (I had a good laugh to myself on that one). Zubrin has obviously missed the point about the real beauty of the constitution - it's simplicity. Some of the most ground breaking and pioneering ideas in it's time (and today as well for a large portion of the world's population) are in that document.

This brings me back to this thread. Arguing the idiosyncrasies of whether or not some buffoon should be allowed to post spam on this board is an exercise that is counter productive to the way people need to think to bring upon progress in space exploration. I could just imagine if Clark and Cindy had to agree upon what to have for dinner - I'd imagine starvation would be in the near future. If someone said the sky is black - I'd imagine we'd hear about the moon, stars, planets, comets, etc from Clark and then have Cindy correct him by pointing out he neglected that seeing "black" is really not seeing at all. well done cindy - thx so much.

Anyways, just thought I'd share a viewpoint. I'm already scared to see all the "quoting" this will undoubtedly generate.

axis

Palomar · 2002-09-26 20:29:49

I could just imagine if Clark and Cindy had to agree upon what to have for dinner - I'd imagine starvation would be in the near future. If someone said the sky is black - I'd imagine we'd hear about the moon, stars, planets, comets, etc from Clark and then have Cindy correct him by pointing out he neglected that seeing "black" is really not seeing at all. well done cindy - thx so much.

*Did you miss reading a few posts in response to you, "Axis"?

Once again, you prejudge the entire message board based upon one thread amongst hundreds of threads which you cannot read because you are unregistered. 99.8% of all posts and threads do *not* appear in an area where unregistered persons can read. The vast majority of posts *do* focus on Mars-related issues; technology, equipment, rocket propellant, and so forth. You are not familiar with the message boards, nor the persons posting, nor their history of interrelatedness, yet you assume a tone of being able to pass character judgments. That's quite a feat for someone who just began reading here yesterday, is not registered and thus is incapable of reading around the entire message boards, and who admits he didn't bother to read the entire thread!

As for, "well done, cindy - thx so much," what do you mean by that? Don't bother answering, though, I understand; misogynistic sentiments can be subtle. The debate involved more than just Clark and me...or just me. There are women in the Mars Society, and we can be vocal; just so you know.

Also, if the debating situation annoyed/frustrated you that much, you could have stopped reading the thread and attempted to begin a new topic. It makes little sense to expose one's self repeatedly to something grating or annoying, and then do nothing about it but complain -- especially when there are other options at your disposal (such as starting a new and different discussion).

Sorry for your sentiments.

--Cindy

Shaun Barrett · 2002-09-27 01:22:17

At the risk of sounding like I'm ganging up on you with Cindy, I have to say, Axis, that I tend to agree with her on some points.
It would be better if you could register and find out more about us 'dreamers' and 'optimists' before wading into us with the old heavy irony - 'well done cindy - thx so much'.
Cindy is a spirited contributor to this site - just one of many reasons she has made good friends here and is evidently so highly regarded - and I could have told you she wouldn't sit still while you took a shot at her! And why should she?!
If Cindy and Clark want to start a raging debate as to whether flies crawl UP walls more often than they crawl DOWN (! ), they'll go right ahead and do it! Not everyone here would necessarily understand why it was so important to settle such a question (especially us old people of "Ooooo", say, on the wrong side of forty! ), but we defend their right to sort it out in their own sweet way!
So, Axis, why not register and join in with some of the other threads, which you might find more to your liking. We're always happy to greet new people with new ideas, and we don't hold grudges .... except maybe against NovaMarsollia!! )

Byron · 2002-09-27 06:14:45

A note to Axis...

You might want to think about the fact that some of us enjoy these kinds of debates...and if certain people want to debate something to the nth degree, what's the harm? That somebody might learn something along the way? Please join..you might learn something too.. :-)

Anyhow, in response to some of Clark's comments:

First of all, I would like to say that I am in full agreement with you that if someone simply wishes to discuss the null hypothesis of the Mars Society, i.e., why we shouldn't go to Mars, they should not be censured on this board. I think that point has been driven home clearly enough...

However, you insist that this board is a PUBLIC community, and that the full right of free speech should be granted based on that principle. I would like to illustrate an example of a very public place...one that has its doors open to the world, and that is Disney World. It is difficult to imagine a place more "public" than that...but is free speech allowed there? No way...if a preacher cracks a Bible and starts reading passages from it in front of the castle...he will be politely *escorted* out the gate. As public as that place is, it is still privately owned and maintained, which means they have the right to control what is "said" within the park boundaries.

The Mars Society and New Mars are indeed "public" organizations, in that anyone is welcome to join and participate. However, the Mars Society has "official" guidelines concerning the existence of extraterrestrial artifacts on Mars, a la Cydonia. Any paper on this topic submitted for the annual M.S. convention will more or less be automatically be rejected. In short, the person that believes in the "face" on Mars will essentially be told to take it somewhere else. Is this wrong? A blatent form of censorship? Maybe so. But the Mars Society is a community of individuals who wish to discuss the exploration, science and the eventual colonization of Mars. That's it. What's so wrong about "limiting" the types of discussion, if that's what the vast majority of people within the organization desire?

The right of free speech really centers around the right to form your own community / organization / church, etc, and talk about things of a *common interest*. If someone wants to talk about why we shouldn't settle Mars, fine...but that person better not complain if 80% percent of the people express a *desire* to see him/her take it elsewhere. What else should that person expect if they join a community created specifically for the idea of getting humans to Mars someday? Without the right of like-minded individuals to gather and only talk about the things that matter to them, the right of free speech would be rather meaningless.

I will agree with the premise that the Mars Society needs to be as open as possible, and allow so-called divergent veiwpoints to be heard, but only up to a point. I, like many others, joined the Mars Society, and New Mars as well, because I want to see humans on Mars. The "null hypothesis" of humans on Mars is present pretty much everywhere else in society...I get plenty of that from my friends, family, etc...LOL.

But the policy of this board seems rather clear...we are free to talk anti-Mars, as long we don't interfere with the other members of the board, a la MarsNovasilla, which is something most of us will agree with. Debate is never bad - but - attempting to undermine the "purpose" of the community is...and that's the point I'm attempting to make.

I'm going to leave it at this, as I really don't have the time to carry on extended debates..lol....but I sincerely hope you understand where I'm coming from with this...

B

clark · 2002-09-27 07:54:21

Arguing the idiosyncrasies of whether or not some buffoon should be allowed to post spam on this board is an exercise that is counter productive to the way people need to think to bring upon progress in space exploration.

Counter productive in what way? You seem intelligent enough to put two and two together Axis, Why don't you explain how a spirited debate that focuses on details (to exlore the ramifications of the larger viewpoint/philosphical stance) is harmful to the goal of the Mars Society. You seem to hold the constution in rather high regard, so I am left wondering why you have such an aversion of people exercsising their rights in a way they choose? I mean, it may not be for you, but is it neccessary to cast your sarcastic judgements on the value of what some may consider worthwhile? How is that anymore helpful than what we ourselves are doing now by arguing over the "minutae"? How would you prefer us all to behave? Shall we all conform to your standards then? I think it it would be more productive if you saved your personal opinions about how we choose to discuss our ideas and our viewpoints and focus more on developing or discussing actual ideas Axis. But then again, I'm probably just being argumenative and petty...

First of all, I would like to say that I am in full agreement with you that if someone simply wishes to discuss the null hypothesis of the Mars Society, i.e., why we shouldn't go to Mars, they should not be censured on this board.

That is the agreement I am looking for.

However, you insist that this board is a PUBLIC community, and that the full right of free speech should be granted based on that principle. I would like to illustrate an example of a very public place...one that has its doors open to the world, and that is Disney World.

valid analogy. However, with disneyland, you do not have unfettered access- it is similar to Cindy's mailing group, or a private club- not EVERYONE can get in there. No such means to screen people exsist here. However, i do conceed that Adrian has full discretion to dictate what is and isn't discussed on this board- that's why I am talking about this. I also think that Adrian will respect the wishes of the majority of the community. I am trying to point out the legitimacy of stances that we may not agree with, and the advantages of maintaing an open and flexible policy on allowing people to have their say.

But the Mars Society is a community of individuals who wish to discuss the exploration, science and the eventual colonization of Mars. That's it. What's so wrong about "limiting" the types of discussion, if that's what the vast majority of people within the organization desire?

I have no problem "limiting" the types of discussions, however, I am reffering in particular to a specfic stance that I feel is legitimate to explore on these boards- the reasons postulated for not going to mars must be addressed.

If someone wants to talk about why we shouldn't settle Mars, fine...but that person better not complain if 80% percent of the people express a *desire* to see him/her take it elsewhere.

I understand and accept that, however I am concerned that they would be *forced* to take it elsewhere.

Without the right of like-minded individuals to gather and only talk about the
things that matter to them, the right of free speech would be rather meaningless.

Then wouldn't a closed community similar to Cindy's be more appropriate? There is an open door here- however, there are areas within this message board that are off-limits to even registered users, ostenibly to control who is gathering to discuss a specfic topic. The rules that are generally enforce on this board deal with personal attacks and posting within the approriate threads for a given topic (ie talking about human missions in the human missions folder).

Debate is never bad - but - attempting to undermine the "purpose" of the community is...and that's the point I'm attempting to make.

I agree, however, I just find it hard to believe that discussing why man should not go to mars is "undermining" this board.

I'm going to leave it at this, as I really don't have the time to carry on extended debates..lol....but I sincerely hope you understand where I'm coming from with this...

I do understand, I have understood where everyone is coming from on this. To me it is a matter of equality- I wouldn't want my posts deleted, I wouldn't want to be banned for discussing something I felt was relevant or pertinent to these boards, so I am arguing for allowing the greatest latitude and flexibility when allowing people to post.

In science, we never know which research, however bizarre, will lead to new discoveries or understandings. I see it the same way with the discussions here- how many threads diverge from the subject heading, yet still produce worthwhile discussions?

AltToWar · 2002-09-29 19:12:51

Trolls have always been and always will be a vital part of any message board community.

If you find a good one, dont be so quick to get rid of em'

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#51 2002-09-26 18:13:51

Re: ATTN NovaMarsollia

#52 2002-09-26 20:29:49

Re: ATTN NovaMarsollia

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Re: ATTN NovaMarsollia

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Re: ATTN NovaMarsollia

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Re: ATTN NovaMarsollia

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