The need for a Moon direct *2* - ...continue here.

John Creighton · 2004-11-19 13:53:28

But *manufacturing* the CNT and other hardware for the elevator, like laser base, cars, ... will be labour intensive. Esp. On the moon.

But at 6.8 Metric Tons it can be made on earth. Labour on earth is much cheaper then on the moon.

Grypd · 2004-11-19 17:15:42

A space elevator or beanpole to be used on the Moon will reguire a lot of material to be launched from the Earth. A space elevator based on the Moon is possible now, just nowhere economically feasible. Another problem is that a lunar space elevator has actually to be longer than one based on the Earth. Why, it has to do with the lack of rotation on the moon and to stop the elevator being pulled down more has to be away from even the Moons tenous pull. The Earth with its rotation actually benefits from the end of its elevator being flung away so providing tension along the whole structure.

The rest comes down to economics, a case between mass drivers and the cost of an elevator. Material launched from Earth currently costs about 1000$us a kg, but a Lunar mass driver could do it for between $0.01 and $0.1 a kg if a mass driver is in routine operation. Also the costs of a setup of a lunar space elevator versus mass drivers, the mass drivers win as they can use insitu materials to provide most of the required construction materials.

Robots could strip mine the required carbon but it would be an intensly expensive process and would scar the Moon quite visibly from the Earth. The collection of lunar regolith and its turning into useful materials can be reasonably done by telerobotics and automation, but to process millions of tons of materials is a tall order on the earth never mind the Moon, and this sort of industrialisation would kill any use of the Moon for telescopes or as a tourist attraction. There is also the president that such activity would set. The belief that its ok to do it to the Moon why not Mars.

SpaceNut · 2004-11-19 19:45:32

A space elevator or beanpole to be used on the Moon will reguire a lot of material to be launched from the Earth.
Another problem is that a lunar space elevator has actually to be longer than one based on the Earth.
Why, it has to do with the lack of rotation on the moon and to stop the elevator being pulled down more has to be away from even the Moons tenous pull.
The Earth with its rotation actually benefits from the end of its elevator being flung away so providing tension along the whole structure.

Thanks this is the first explaination of the reason for making it longer.

Thou there is a thought that comes to mind. Have you ever seen a Antenna mast for radio station. They place 4 guide wires at right angles and teather them to a solid base anchor disperse to a grater distance than the hieght of the center pole or mast. This probably could be done on the moon to stabalize it.

ERRORIST · 2004-11-19 19:54:08

Robots could strip mine the required carbon but it would be an intensly expensive process and would scar the Moon quite visibly from the Earth.

It already is scared quite visibly from Earth. We could take the time and resore it to its natural pristine beauty if you want. The electricity is almost free. It could be done very easy. LETS START TOMORROW.

GCNRevenger · 2004-11-19 20:04:22

1: Removing enough carbon from the Moon for a useful space elevator would require processing about a million metric tons of lunar soil. Such an operation would be very large and take a long time, it is not practical currently without easy access to LEO from Earth, where you might as well just ship the carbon from here.

2: Solar power is NOT "almost free," the HUGE cost of the massive solar farms required for #1, spread over their useful lives, is as real a cost as any.

No way this could be done for a reasonable sum today

ERRORIST · 2004-11-19 20:36:38

I bet solar cell companies would sell them at half price if the CEOs knew they were going to be used for such a noble purpose.They would even donte millions for such development on the moon. They could be manufactured very easy on the Moon.Free energy from the sun. Brilliant.

Martian Republic · 2004-11-19 21:15:04

It is true that the moon does not have a lot of carbon and/or in any concentration. The only viable alternative would be to either ship it in from the Earth or strip mine a near by Asteroid. Shipping it in from the Earth will be expensive and not practical. Strip mining an asteroid is currently not practical either, because we neither have ship, mining equipment or a place in space to assemble the mining company to get that carbon. So we are going to have to either pick Earth or the carbon Asteroid to get our resources for our Lunar Elevator. So it does not look practical right now, but it would really open the Moon up to both development on a large scale.

Larry,

GCNRevenger · 2004-11-19 21:30:58

I bet solar cell companies would sell them at half price if the CEOs knew they were going to be used for such a noble purpose.They would even donte millions for such development on the moon. They could be manufactured very easy on the Moon.Free energy from the sun. Brilliant.

And I bet that the solar pannel companies' stockholders would have the CEO's head on a silver platter by the end of the work day too.

And NO, the can't be easily manufactured on the Moon. No solar pannel factory, no silicon factory, no aluminum smelter, no glass refinery, no initial power plant, no living quarters for crews, no landers, and most of all no efficent access to the Moon from Earth.

As you can see, there is no such thing as "free" energy. Just because it comes from the Sun doesn't mean it costs $0.

ERRORIST · 2004-11-19 22:01:37

A measly million metric tons of regolith. The weight of ten measly Nimitz class carriers. A measly 100 solar powered front end loaders can do the job easy.

comstar03 · 2004-11-19 23:02:53

To Build a mining operation on the moon, you would need a large moonbase or lunar settlement up to 100+ personnel, to control the processing facilities, robotic control systems and establishing other manufacturing facilities for future infrastructure expansion in space.

In order to this be accomplished you first need to build a mobile contruction transports that can act as command facility on the moon with 12 personnel for three shifts to build a new base and mine on the moon. The transport would bring larger droid units for construction, including cranes, bulldozers and dump trucks. Specialist droid units will include surveyor droids, assembly droids, and repair bay droids.

The second transport would be 50% Assembly and 50% mining, the third transport would be 100% mining droids, also bring a micro fabrication and furance facilities. Semi-antonomous droids would function in the clearing and preparation for site construction, or mining for ore and delivery. Now you have a start for a lunar settlement development and future space development.

But it first starts in earth orbit, close to earth, where droids could assembly the transports and other facilities necessary for the expansion on the lunar surface. You need to recycle the casing of ships, engines and other components in space assembly zone, thus reducing the overall costs.

When you are designing spaceships like rockets decide on the recyclable use for the spent components in orbit. Change the thinking around throw-away items and recycle them into newer vessels, space station modules or storage modules or other useful needs.

Martian Republic · 2004-11-19 23:59:26

I bet solar cell companies would sell them at half price if the CEOs knew they were going to be used for such a noble purpose.They would even donte millions for such development on the moon. They could be manufactured very easy on the Moon.Free energy from the sun. Brilliant.
And I bet that the solar pannel companies' stockholders would have the CEO's head on a silver platter by the end of the work day too.
And NO, the can't be easily manufactured on the Moon. No solar pannel factory, no silicon factory, no aluminum smelter, no glass refinery, no initial power plant, no living quarters for crews, no landers, and most of all no efficent access to the Moon from Earth.
As you can see, there is no such thing as "free" energy. Just because it comes from the Sun doesn't mean it costs $0.

I agree with you that we are not going to just pull technology off the shelf and build that lunar colony and most of manufacturing technics for manufacturing were developed on Earth and may not be readably transferable to either space or the moon. That I'm in agreement with you on that. So we don't use manufacturing technics that we use on Earth, we develop a whole new set of manufacturing technologies. We isolate problem area's like welding to pieces of metal together. We can't use a Gas Welder in a vacuum and an Electric Welder doesn't work very good either in a vacuum also. We will have to develop a whole new way of welding something like maybe a laser welder or something. The other choice is to choose not to do any manufacturing on the moon and I consider that an unacceptable choice or option.

Larry,

deagleninja · 2004-11-20 09:17:47

Actually, though its not free, it's about as close to free as you can get when building infastructure in space. For a few billion we could send a few rovers and a small factory to make at least low-grade solar panels on the Moon. Since it would be entirely automated, it's possible that the 'powerstation' would continue growing and eventually yeild enough energy to pay for itself. As the MER missions have shown, telerobotics is rather cheap once the initial missions are paid for.

Grypd · 2004-11-20 09:38:35

To Build a mining operation on the moon, you would need a large moonbase or lunar settlement up to 100+ personnel, to control the processing facilities, robotic control systems and establishing other manufacturing facilities for future infrastructure expansion in space.
In order to this be accomplished you first need to build a mobile contruction transports that can act as command facility on the moon with 12 personnel for three shifts to build a new base and mine on the moon. The transport would bring larger droid units for construction, including cranes, bulldozers and dump trucks. Specialist droid units will include surveyor droids, assembly droids, and repair bay droids.
The second transport would be 50% Assembly and 50% mining, the third transport would be 100% mining droids, also bring a micro fabrication and furance facilities. Semi-antonomous droids would function in the clearing and preparation for site construction, or mining for ore and delivery. Now you have a start for a lunar settlement development and future space development.
But it first starts in earth orbit, close to earth, where droids could assembly the transports and other facilities necessary for the expansion on the lunar surface. You need to recycle the casing of ships, engines and other components in space assembly zone, thus reducing the overall costs.
When you are designing spaceships like rockets decide on the recyclable use for the spent components in orbit. Change the thinking around throw-away items and recycle them into newer vessels, space station modules or storage modules or other useful needs.

You do not need a base of 100+ people to start mining on the Moon. The first thing that should be sent to the moon is rovers and a mineral/resources survey satelite. We know from previous missions of materials that we are looking for and of places that would prove extremely beneficial to start due to the amount of solar power these places recieve. We also will have proof of what is in those permanently dark areas of the poles and of how much use they might be.

When we have done this it is time to start creating the conditions of a first base. We send a lander with a couple of telerobotic rover/tugs/Moon dozers and a simple lunar brick solar furnace. The rovers will emplace guidance systems and allow us to place specialised landers. The first two will be a lander which will provide power by extending banks of solar cells and the first factory. This factory will convert lunar regolith into simple silicon based solar cells. Silicon based solars cells are nothing like as efficient as Earth made ones but what they lack in power generation they make up in toughness. These will slowly and surely increase available power. And we keep increasing Telerobotic robots and more factories to increase what we make and to provide oxygen production for when the first crews come.

John Creighton · 2004-11-20 10:14:33

As far as importing a space elevator to the moon lets look at what we are talking about. 6,800 kg gives a 200Kg lift capacity. But that is 200 Kg at the base of the moon the elevator will be able to lift more weight further up the line. So lets say 300 kg lift capacity. Now say it takes 2 weeks to make the climb then over one year that is 300 kg * 52 weeks gives 15.6 tons per year. What are the oxygen equipments of the ISS per year? Anyway I guess that 68000 kg to the moon will cost about 10 billion dollars. Assuming it can be borrowed at 10% interest the cost is 1 billion per year for 15.6 tons. I guess your right it is not economical. However if you use a mass driver how do you guide the payloads? If you guide them with some propulsion system chemical ion etc.. Then the space elevator would provide you away of returning the guidance system to the mass driver after the package reaches its depot. Moreover if the elevator was made out of nanotubes instead of http://www.m5fiber.com/magellan/m5_fiber.htm]M5 then it would be lighter and the economics might start to look better.

http://www.universetoday.com/am/publish … html]lunar space elevator

Rxke · 2004-11-20 11:13:44

Talk about harvesting C to make cable on the moon is pure madness, it would be *much* cheaper to assemble and launch the coils from earth.

But there's more to the elevator than the cable. The big, big power station, for starters, the climbers, the anchor point...

of course, you could start with only one climber, but then you still have the freaking big power station to be built on Luna...

It's not simple. It would take quite a number of launches and man-hours on the moon.
And face it, we have virtually no experience with working on the moon. Apollo crews set up some experiments and even that turned out to be harder than thought, even if it was very basic stuff like merely unfolding antennae, rolling off cable, connecting cables to power stations... read the transcrips. It was really hard work, and some simple things went just wrong...
Luna ain't an easy place to work, partially because of the dust, partially because of the low gravity (astronauts having huge problems exerting pressure w/o falling for starters. The video's look funny, but I you think about it, it' a nightmare to work there...

John Creighton · 2004-11-20 11:35:55

Talk about harvesting C to make cable on the moon is pure madness, it would be *much* cheaper to assemble and launch the coils from earth.
But there's more to the elevator than the cable. The big, big power station, for starters, the climbers, the anchor point...
of course, you could start with only one climber, but then you still have the freaking big power station to be built on Luna...

So you are saying it is not a near term proposition. You may be right. I agree that before a space elevator is built there should be tellerobotics on the moon capable of building the anchor and caring dirt to the oxygen factory. The excavation equipment will probably not have enough power to move the dirt by the solar panels on them. This panels will just help the robots recharge enough to get back to the base. The base will need a nuclear or solar power plant to run the oxygen producing equipment and give a fast recharge to the tell robots. This could be fairly expensive depending on how small the robots can be made and still be useful. It is interesting to note that as someone pointed out a jackhammer on the moon would have to weigh six times as much to provide the same force. Anyway once this stuff is in place a space elevator could be economical especially if it used carbon nanotubes. It would of course have to be shipped from earth but I think it can be shipped in one launch. Hopefully this can be done with little to no human work on the moon. Granted there will be people there exploring the moon anyway but the less construction they have do the more science they can get done.

Rxke · 2004-11-20 13:34:27

Starting to get convinced... Been reading a bit more about the Lunacable (and it's on slashdot now, too, lots of idiotic comments, as usual, but some good points...)

I have the impression 'they' want to make a bare-bones cable, probably w/o powerstation... ?
Hmmm....that'd be possible, if you use solar cells *on the climbers themselfves*, and keep climbing for 14-ish days, wait 14-ish days etc... No atmosphere, so no risk of big cells acting as sails, and better insolation. Just a thought.

That way, all you'd need is about a 7tonnes launch, to Lagrange, with the spool from earth, and probably another one with a robot anchor thingy that connects on the end and, upon reaching the surface, somehow drills itself into the soil... Oh, and a small climber or two, of course... Hmmm... Still sounds non-straightforward, but vastly simpler than Earth-based, laser-powered climbers etc...

So... It could be done, relatively simple? No need for harvesting-big operations-battlestar-galactica-keep-dreaming-operations... Probably a minimal crew on Luna could come in handy, but no need for extensive hardware. That could come up, or rather down later, by the cable, heehee...
And NASA seems to be interesed, the guy got a grant to work a bit more on the details...

comstar03 · 2004-11-20 22:50:00

Grypd,

Yes, We would do all the surveying or purchase the surveys from a country that already completed the mapping. We are not going back to the moon to " build a cabin on the moon" we are going back to build a industrial complex for the expansion of humanity into space. You think to small in the development approach. I provide a five year overview for lunar expansion.

I am not talking about a couple of droids ( robots ) I am talking about one human as team leader controlling a team of droids (8-10 droids) for site preparation for a large scale industrial facilities, mass driver and lunar settlement facilities. Therefore, by the time the three transport we would have approximately 288-360 droids would under virtual control of 36 personnel, assemblying the industrial facilities direct mining, building the mass driver transport, power facilities, lunar settlement and pressurized landing facilities and hanger facilities. Working towards the development of Manufacturing facilities for space modules, satellites and more.

Orbital droids would be controlled from earth stations similar to call centers with groups of 8 persons controlling 80 orbital droids for space assembly each.

Yes, It will cost a large voluime of money 500-1000 $Billion but once completed the lunar settlement can be used in connection with the orbiting stations to expand humans permanently into space.

But running costs can be recouped through leasing space to other corporates and governments wanting facilities for staff to train, survey and mine, and start a engineering services within the settlement to mancufacturing other vehicles for third parties.

ERRORIST · 2004-11-21 00:21:15

It was so easy for them on the moon they even had time to play golf and go four wheel driving up there. Imagine how much more easy it will be nowadays almost fourty years later. A million metric tons ain't nothing. The energy from the sun can move it easy.

Rxke · 2004-11-21 04:19:51

Comstar,

$1000 Billion? Keep dreaming.

You keep saying to people they think too small, but maybe it's you who thinks a little too big, no?

comstar03 · 2004-11-21 07:39:52

Rxke,

I hope you read the last messages I have posted because that would require 7-12 years to build the large lunar facilities that I had outlined from the income stream that I outlined.

I think you don't understand the resource requirements for moving hundreds to thousands permanently off the earth and the resources required to create a working environment for those people and create this environment to be self-substaainable in the timeframe outlined.

Currently we don't have any person permanently living in space and working in space past 6 months. We are talking about movement of people into space for years and lifetime.

Rxke, I don't think you understand the vast resources are required for the space expansion. At least I have a strategic operational plan that I am implementing that will take time to assembly all the necessary ground support facilities in all parts of the world under the corporate structure. This plan doesn't rely on the space fairing governments or the industrial corporates that fund current space operations globally.

Yes, Rxke, I have said that people here limit their space development potential to small missions and smaller goals. Yes, My objectives are large and permanent, but they will permanently put humans in space and space will have an instellar economy. I know that the law for space isn't there, and the rights of ownership don't exist, So we need to work through this minefield of complex issues and develop policies to meet those issues.

Inclusion Rxke, Do a bit more thought behind your reason for space travel for humanity and not just " lets take a ride to mars" because we need to have the infrastructure to meet the current and future needs for the human race in space.

Rxke · 2004-11-21 09:03:31

There you go again: "I think you don't understand... I don't think you understand... , Do a bit more thought behind your reason..."

That condescending tone, it gets rather tiresome, you know? It's because I *do* have an inkling of the costs for such project that I'm sceptical... There's no way to amass $1000 Bil in that timeframe.

And always you say you have a solution, but do not say which one. Last time you offered a glimpse, it involved 600 million people paying $30/month, IIRC... I find that very, very hard to believe. For starters, there are no 600 million people around that can spare another $30/month, abov their current spending. I know I can't. And I'm in the upper, oh 10% of the global wealth scale, I'm pretty sure.
So I say: $1000 Billion? that's a dream. Prove me wrong, and I will be very, very happy, heck, I'll dance on my table till dawn.

And that's why everybody makes up scenarios running in the $ hundreds of Billions, maximum. Currently the world hasn't got the spare change.

GCNRevenger · 2004-11-21 10:33:58

The roads of history are litterd with ideas that were too grand, too visionary, too big for their time... this Lunar base that is self-sustaining, self-funding, and built in only a decade or two is one of them.

NASA would need to develop a true reuseable medium-lift RLV for Earth and a second one for the Moon in order to satisfy the huge demand for payload. NASA would also have to have a Lunar fuel factory, a Lunar ice mining operation, and a host of other facilities that are very difficult for any sum of money given today's technology. Expendable rockets are clearly insufficent for such a task.

Current day robotic technology is not good enough to build much of anything. Telerobotic construction has been and will continue to be a laboratory curiosity without very large sums of money from government or private business, neither of which the robot folks are going to recieve, because there is no pressing need on Earth.

But more then all that, there will be no Lunar colony because there is no need for it. All the mineral wealth we'll need for a long, long time is right here on Earth. It would be easier to mine ore from the ocean floor and refine it on terra-firma then it would be to ship it from the Moon. And good luck convincing the world that its a good idea to build a railgun and shoot it at the Earth... Lunar solar power cannot be effectively transmitted to Earth because of the huge half-million-kilometer distances involved... There is no practical way to capture Lunar rocket fuel launched by railgun either.

So you see, this notion about a Lunar base being self-funding is nonsense, because no profit-centric business could possibly make any money off the venture except from wringing it out of NASA. Sure some people might want to move to the Moon, but without a national economic or other strateigic bennefit, no nation will make the collective sacrifice so a handfull can leave the Earth with no good reason. Population growth is not such a reason either, in fact the United Nations predicts that the global population will level off at ~9Bn, clearly within the capability of GMOs to feed, and may even contract over the next century. Pollitical dissidents would also require a national-scale investment, which dissidents are not likly to recieve. And so on and so on and so on... It is not yet time for us to leave the Earth; we may be able to touch the stars, but to grasp them would exceed our reach.

Grypd · 2004-11-21 12:29:25

I have never said that the plan was to create a Moonbase that was completely self sustaining immediatly. But the more resources we can get from the lunar surface to suppliment and to increase capacity the better. It will reduce costs.

There are materials that we can garner from the Moon that are rare and desperatly needed for use on the Earth. GCNRevenger is right the population of the Earth will tend to tail of increasing at about 9 Billion people. But what he declined to mention is that the majority of those people will have to remain in a state of abject poverty. The Earth cannot sustain that amount of people in a lifestyle like we in the western world take for granted now. In fact we cannot do it now so what is the answer. We are using our main fuel source Oil faster and faster each year and supplies will run out sooner. The fuel is dirty and does severe damage to our enviroment and us. We now have alternatives but these require specific materials which due to there origin are hard to get on Earth.

The best way to develop the Moon is to start small and use telerobotics. In this GCNRevenger is wrong they are no longer in the labs youll find them working in the Mines of Australia and South Africa. Keep increasing your industrial capacity on the Moon and then use Human personel to do what they are best at real science.

Martian Republic · 2004-11-21 15:55:13

All of you people are hitting different parts of the problem of any attempt to colonize the moon. You all advance different idea's on how to do it or why we can't do it and as far you go with your idea, your right. comstar03 has come up with the basic idea of what we need to do, but he can niether come up with the money nor make it profitable to bring something like this off. But, comstar03 is right, what ever we do, it need to be a big operation or we are just beating the air with our fist and getting nowhere. As long as comstar03 rejects government funding or government generated credit as the primary source of funding and government either regulating, tax rite off or buy the equipment needed to make his plan work, his plan will be FDOLP. Or his plan will be Found Dead On Launch Pad.

Baring any government participation on such a level, then the rest of you people are right and it will not happen.

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#151 2004-11-19 13:53:28

Re: The need for a Moon direct *2* - ...continue here.

#152 2004-11-19 17:15:42

Re: The need for a Moon direct *2* - ...continue here.

#153 2004-11-19 19:45:32

Re: The need for a Moon direct *2* - ...continue here.

#154 2004-11-19 19:54:08

Re: The need for a Moon direct *2* - ...continue here.

#155 2004-11-19 20:04:22

Re: The need for a Moon direct *2* - ...continue here.

#156 2004-11-19 20:36:38

Re: The need for a Moon direct *2* - ...continue here.

#157 2004-11-19 21:15:04

Re: The need for a Moon direct *2* - ...continue here.

#158 2004-11-19 21:30:58

Re: The need for a Moon direct *2* - ...continue here.

#159 2004-11-19 22:01:37

Re: The need for a Moon direct *2* - ...continue here.

#160 2004-11-19 23:02:53

Re: The need for a Moon direct *2* - ...continue here.

#161 2004-11-19 23:59:26

Re: The need for a Moon direct *2* - ...continue here.

#162 2004-11-20 09:17:47

Re: The need for a Moon direct *2* - ...continue here.

#163 2004-11-20 09:38:35

Re: The need for a Moon direct *2* - ...continue here.

#164 2004-11-20 10:14:33

Re: The need for a Moon direct *2* - ...continue here.

#165 2004-11-20 11:13:44

Re: The need for a Moon direct *2* - ...continue here.

#166 2004-11-20 11:35:55

Re: The need for a Moon direct *2* - ...continue here.

#167 2004-11-20 13:34:27

Re: The need for a Moon direct *2* - ...continue here.

#168 2004-11-20 22:50:00

Re: The need for a Moon direct *2* - ...continue here.

#169 2004-11-21 00:21:15

Re: The need for a Moon direct *2* - ...continue here.

#170 2004-11-21 04:19:51

Re: The need for a Moon direct *2* - ...continue here.

#171 2004-11-21 07:39:52

Re: The need for a Moon direct *2* - ...continue here.

#172 2004-11-21 09:03:31

Re: The need for a Moon direct *2* - ...continue here.

#173 2004-11-21 10:33:58

Re: The need for a Moon direct *2* - ...continue here.

#174 2004-11-21 12:29:25

Re: The need for a Moon direct *2* - ...continue here.

#175 2004-11-21 15:55:13

Re: The need for a Moon direct *2* - ...continue here.

Board footer

Re: The need for a Moon direct 2 - ...continue here.

Re: The need for a Moon direct 2 - ...continue here.

Re: The need for a Moon direct 2 - ...continue here.

Re: The need for a Moon direct 2 - ...continue here.

Re: The need for a Moon direct 2 - ...continue here.

Re: The need for a Moon direct 2 - ...continue here.

Re: The need for a Moon direct 2 - ...continue here.

Re: The need for a Moon direct 2 - ...continue here.

Re: The need for a Moon direct 2 - ...continue here.

Re: The need for a Moon direct 2 - ...continue here.

Re: The need for a Moon direct 2 - ...continue here.

Re: The need for a Moon direct 2 - ...continue here.

Re: The need for a Moon direct 2 - ...continue here.

Re: The need for a Moon direct 2 - ...continue here.

Re: The need for a Moon direct 2 - ...continue here.

Re: The need for a Moon direct 2 - ...continue here.

Re: The need for a Moon direct 2 - ...continue here.

Re: The need for a Moon direct 2 - ...continue here.

Re: The need for a Moon direct 2 - ...continue here.

Re: The need for a Moon direct 2 - ...continue here.

Re: The need for a Moon direct 2 - ...continue here.

Re: The need for a Moon direct 2 - ...continue here.

Re: The need for a Moon direct 2 - ...continue here.

Re: The need for a Moon direct 2 - ...continue here.

Re: The need for a Moon direct 2 - ...continue here.