Political Potpourri - ...anything political goes.

Palomar · 2004-11-18 08:56:59

I can't believe you just wrote me that condescending moralistic lecture, Dickbill. Please read my post of Nov 17 2004, 19:41
I understand the ramifications of that marine's actions and they will have to be investigated. But my point was that there are other things much more worthy of your outrage, and the outrage of the press!
What's wrong with you people?
Hello .. hello .. am I getting through? :bars:

*Yep, that marine's actions should be investigated and if he did wrong he should be punished.

But you're correct in pointing out the hypocrisy and bias of the Arab media. It's not just us.

Frankly, I think these discussions are rapidly becoming pointless. The predominant opinion seems to be that Arabs are completely wonderful and could never do any wrong (despite all those airliner hijackings, murders, kidnappings and other assorted abuses all throughout the 1970s and 1980s -- directed at Westerners [nevermind the bombings in the 1990s or what followed])...it's only the U.S. which does wrong.

Seems like lopsided thinking to me.

--Cindy

BWhite · 2004-11-18 09:03:51

*I have questions for Bill White, DonPanic and dickbill:
The Arab media biases don't bother you?
Or do you believe the Arab media has no biases?
Or do you think it's "okay"/doesn't matter if they have biases because Western journalism has its biases as well?
It's "okay" for the Arab media to be quiet [silence gives assent] about the genocide ocurring in Sudan (Arab Islamicists butchering helpless black African Sudanese)?
--Cindy

I see the Arab press as a symptom of our larger failure to communicate. Its like the canary in the coal mine.

We have seen how Europeans and Americans can use the same word - - "freedom" - - yet mean very different things by it. OUR inability to grasp that words and meanings may not correspond prevents communication.

On Hassan's death, where should the outrage be? If I were a moderate Jordanian, my outrage would be against the Americans for failing to provide sufficient security to prevent kidnappings in braod daylight.

An analogy:

A school security guard is watching a playground and falls asleep. A pervert enters the playground and kidnaps a child.

Where should the outrage lie?

With the pervert? Of course. But Shaun would have that outrage replace the outrage at the sleeping guard.

Margaret Hassan died because America broke Iraq and has not fixed it yet.

clark · 2004-11-18 09:03:54

The actions cited regarding terroist actions were perpetuated by individuals and small groups, not nations, not entire peoples.

The US actions are supported and engaged at the behest of the majority of the population. There is a profound difference when we compare the two.

One is a few criminal thugs, the other, an entire society. We can't blame all arabs for the actions of a few misguided delusional nut jobs. Yet they are rather justified in blaming all us American's when the good ol US of A engages in actions that are rather reprehensible.

BWhite · 2004-11-18 09:09:30

Mosul is the BIG story.

Police defect in mass droves. Insurgents occupy entire police stations, looting and burning. And steakling American made body armor for the insurgents to use.

24 hours later, we re-capture all the police stations and say "See, we are winning. We re-captured the police stations!"

BWhite · 2004-11-18 09:10:43

Frankly, I think these discussions are rapidly becoming pointless. The predominant opinion seems to be that Arabs are completely wonderful and could never do any wrong (despite all those airliner hijackings, murders, kidnappings and other assorted abuses all throughout the 1970s and 1980s -- directed at Westerners [nevermind the bombings in the 1990s or what followed])...it's only the U.S. which does wrong.
Seems like lopsided thinking to me.

Cindy, please quote me.

Where in this thread did ANY ONE say Arabs are wonderful?

clark · 2004-11-18 09:12:32

Arabs are wonderful.

BWhite · 2004-11-18 09:27:02

As usual http://www.juancole.com/2004/11/more-on … .html]Juan Cole is excellent on the comparisons between the Hassan murder and the marine killing the prisoner incident.

To compare them to the murderous thugs who [murdered] CARE worker Margaret Hassan, . . . is frankly monstrous. The multinational forces are soldiers fighting a war in which they are targetting combatants and sometimes accidentally killing innocents. The hostage-takers are terrorists deliberately killing innocents. It is simply not the same thing.

But I believe this also is true:

Some of my readers still want good guys and bad guys, white hats and black hats. That's not the way the world is. It is often grey, and very bleak.

Arabs ain't wonderful. Nor are we Americans (or Aussies).

clark · 2004-11-18 09:31:02

I'm wonderful! At least my mother tells me so. (yes, even I have one)

Palomar · 2004-11-18 09:52:49

Frankly, I think these discussions are rapidly becoming pointless. The predominant opinion seems to be that Arabs are completely wonderful and could never do any wrong (despite all those airliner hijackings, murders, kidnappings and other assorted abuses all throughout the 1970s and 1980s -- directed at Westerners [nevermind the bombings in the 1990s or what followed])...it's only the U.S. which does wrong.
Seems like lopsided thinking to me.
Cindy, please quote me.
Where in this thread did ANY ONE say Arabs are wonderful?

*It's not been said, it's been strongly implied. I referred to implications not actual bold-faced statements. And note I was also careful to use the word "seems."

I see the Arab press as a symptom of our larger failure to communicate. Its like the canary in the coal mine.

*So it's our fault the Arab media won't report on abuses by Arabs (re: Islamic Arab genocide on black African Sudanese)?

As for circumcision (just backtracking a bit): It is neither American nor Christian in origin. It began with a man named Abraham approximately 3000 years ago in the Middle East, and is a Jewish tradition.

In the U.S., circumcision of infant boys is an option, not a requirement.

But why don't we just leave others' bodies alone and let them decide as adults whether they wish circumcision or not.

As for female genital mutilation -- it deprives women of sexual pleasure (which circumcision generally does NOT do -- although there have been cases of botched circumcisions with resultant dysfunction and pain...which is why we should let boys decide when they become adults) and reduces them to simply menstruating and bearing children.

Just leave others' bodies alone, male and female. Thanks.

--Cindy

BWhite · 2004-11-18 10:43:13

Cindy, we can control what we do. We can alter our policies and be more effective, or less effective.

Outrage at the kidnappers is understandable but FUTILE.

Outrage at OUR failure to provide security is outrage that can lead to a solution,

The "Right" seeks to focus all our rage at "them" so we ignore the failings of our own leadership.

Palomar · 2004-11-18 11:02:53

Cindy, we can control what we do. ...
The "Right" seeks to focus all our rage at "them" so we ignore the failings of our own leadership.

*Everyone can control what they do -- *everyone*.

Is it fair to say the "Left" seeks to focus all its rage at "us" so we can ignore Arab-originated abuses and terrorism?

How much longer do we have to pay for the mistakes of President Truman? If the track record of Arabs is any indication, it's going to be "eye for eye, tooth for tooth, Jihad!" until the end of time.

So do we seek to placate them continually at our own expense? They will seek placation continually -- bloodily and violently so. They've proven this for decades.

How much longer do we have to pay for President Truman's decision (the creation of Israel)?

--Cindy

clark · 2004-11-18 11:06:58

Obsessive-compulsive cannot. For some reason, I just needed to say that. Go figure. :laugh:

BWhite · 2004-11-18 11:23:27

Is it fair to say the "Left" seeks to focus all its rage at "us" so we can ignore Arab-originated abuses and terrorism?

How do you propose to end those abuses?

Islamic terror is a fire we must extinguish. Do we throw gasoline or water? Cindy, for years I have been saying:

"STOP THROWING GASOLINE!"

And in response Shaun accuses me of being sympathetic to murderers.

How much longer do we have to pay for the mistakes of President Truman? If the track record of Arabs is any indication, it's going to be "eye for eye, tooth for tooth, Jihad!" until the end of time.

So what is the solution? Kill them all?

We need to talk to them (successfully) or kill them all.

You don't win a talking argument by starting out telling "them" how evil they are.

So do we seek to placate them continually at our own expense? They will seek placation continually -- bloodily and violently so. They've proven this for decades.

They? Who they? Which they? All of them?

Why did bin Laden do 9/11? Because the average Muslim was not sufficiently anti-western for his purposes.

Bomb NYC. US troops level Fallajuh and now bin Laden recruits new terrorists.

bin Laden sets a fire and we respond with gasoline.

How much longer do we have to pay for President Truman's decision (the creation of Israel)?

Until we make it right. Whatever "right" may be.

How did we stop Egypt and Israel from fighting? We bribed the Egyptians with billions of dollars. Today, we pay Cairo billions of dollars each year not to fight with Israel. But we call it foreign aid.

One solution?

Landfill and build a big island in the Med Sea. Expensive? Yeah, sure, but remember, while God made the world, the Dutch made Holland.

Invest a few trillion dollars for infrastructre. Isle de Palestine, or Island New Israel. I don't know, flip a coin?

Jerusalem? International city not governed by Israel or Palestine. Author Tom Clancy once suggested letting the Vatican control Jerusalem. Being Catholic, that's fine by me, but others may object. ???

= = =

Telling the Palestinians. "Too bad, so sad, get over it" just won't work, at least IMHO.

SpaceNut · 2004-11-18 11:40:58

on the side of outrage note, those she had been helping and working with all those years should also feel outraged at what had occurred to her as well for she believed she was one of them.

Palomar · 2004-11-18 11:54:31

Is it fair to say the "Left" seeks to focus all its rage at "us" so we can ignore Arab-originated abuses and terrorism?
How do you propose to end those abuses?
Islamic terror is a fire we must extinguish. Do we throw gasoline or water? Cindy, for years I have been saying:
"STOP THROWING GASOLINE!"
And in response Shaun accuses me of being sympathetic to murderers.
How much longer do we have to pay for the mistakes of President Truman? If the track record of Arabs is any indication, it's going to be "eye for eye, tooth for tooth, Jihad!" until the end of time.
So what is the solution? Kill them all?
We need to talk to them (successfully) or kill them all.
You don't win a talking argument by starting out telling "them" how evil they are.

*No, we don't kill them all.

Seems the only options >they want to give us< are:

1. Betray Israel.
2. Kill them all.
3. Bow down and submit to Allah.

NONE of those are options, in my books.

Do we continue to try and aggravate, inflame, anger them? NO.

But because of the Israel-Pals grudge, certain Islamic fundie leaders WILL continue to try and aggravate, inflame and anger us (and their own people) to achieve their own ends.

Those types of leaders don't care about their own people. Israel-Pals is a trump card they use.

Either they'll have to "get over it" as regards Israel or Pals, or this fighting will go on and on.

It sure looks like a no-win situation to me. For everyone. It takes two; it isn't just U.S.

--Cindy

::edit:: And how do you propose we "talk" with them? Most folks in the Middle East live under oppressive theocracies; they're not allowed to think for themselves. Contrast that to this nation, which has relatively good freedom of speech and press. Can't talk with people who aren't allowed to. Their religious leaders won't talk -- they've got a good thing going for themselves (control and money); same for whatever secular authorities there are.

BWhite · 2004-11-18 11:56:04

on the side of outrage note, those she had been helping and working with all those years should also feel outraged at what had occurred to her as well for she believed she was one of them.

The vast majority of Iraqis are outraged and horrified at Hassan's death. My reading also suggets that they are furious at the idea that the solution to such atrocities is to give Allawi and the Americans more support.

BWhite · 2004-11-18 12:03:20

Is it fair to say the "Left" seeks to focus all its rage at "us" so we can ignore Arab-originated abuses and terrorism?
How do you propose to end those abuses?
Islamic terror is a fire we must extinguish. Do we throw gasoline or water? Cindy, for years I have been saying:
"STOP THROWING GASOLINE!"
And in response Shaun accuses me of being sympathetic to murderers.
How much longer do we have to pay for the mistakes of President Truman? If the track record of Arabs is any indication, it's going to be "eye for eye, tooth for tooth, Jihad!" until the end of time.
So what is the solution? Kill them all?
We need to talk to them (successfully) or kill them all.
You don't win a talking argument by starting out telling "them" how evil they are.
*No, we don't kill them all.
Seems the only options >they want to give us< are:
1. Betray Israel.
2. Kill them all.
3. Bow down and submit to Allah.
NONE of those are options, in my books.

This is precisely what bin Laden and the terrorists want.

= WE = need to find additional options the average Islamic person will accept.

Getting rid of Saddam? Not a bad start.

Sending in Paul Bremer to assimiliate Iraq (like the fictional Borg) into the western realm? Not such a good idea.

= = =

Remove Saddam and hand Iraq to Sistani, a Shia who bin Laden considers an apostate. And leave.

dickbill · 2004-11-18 21:12:57

*I have questions for Bill White, DonPanic and dickbill:
The Arab media biases don't bother you?
Or do you believe the Arab media has no biases?
Or do you think it's "okay"/doesn't matter if they have biases because Western journalism has its biases as well?
It's "okay" for the Arab media to be quiet [silence gives assent] about the genocide ocurring in Sudan (Arab Islamicists butchering helpless black African Sudanese)?
--Cindy

Arab media ? just the Bachelor and Extreme Makeover, that's it (I don't watch the cable since I left New York).
I am the regular Joe, a little bit liberal on some issues, but mostly conservative on most, you know that Cindy.

Shaun : I don't want to lecture you of course. But I tought It was necessary to precise my position. And the guy that shot the wounded man ? he shouldn't even be investigated since his komrades said he did nothing wrong. I am serious.

OK, so, what's next ?

Shaun Barrett · 2004-11-18 22:23:05

That's O.K. Dickbill.
I was just a little tired, I guess, and fed up with what I perceive to be a persistent anti-Coalition bias - something I don't understand when our troops are in the front line doing a difficult job on our behalf. Whatever my political feelings, I would never wish to be seen to be selling our soldiers short .. never! Especially against the extremist religious scum we're facing in Iraq and elsewhere.

In retrospect, I should have counted to ten before firing off that reproach at you. I'm sure I misinterpreted your meaning and offer my apology for it.

Gennaro · 2004-11-19 17:56:29

You know, i think it is like 60-70% of all males in the US (I have no relevant stats for the rest of the West) have their sexual organs mutilated at birth, or shortly afterwards.
Some do it for religious reasons.
Perspective is such a wonderful thing.

I simply can't believe that you wrote what you just did. In fact, female circumsition is something that I could have gone to war over. Never mind the oil in Iraq. It's a barbaric, painful, disgusting, mentally retarded, degrading custom that deprives females of the experience of being human. In short, it's despicable. Do you have any idea what a child must feel having to go through this? Personally, I'd rather be dead.

Arabs are wonderful

Yeah, sure. Just wonder why it's those nicely mannered liberals who can write poetry who seem totally devoid of any human empathy.

Shaun Barrett · 2004-11-19 21:10:40

Hear hear, Gennaro!!

Female genital mutilation ("circumcision", they call it, in a pathetic effort to give it equal footing with male circumcision) is an abomination.
There is still debate among doctors as to whether male circumcision is beneficial or desirable, as there is some evidence it can help prevent damaging infections and there's no evidence it impairs sexual function. However, there is no debate among doctors as to whether female genital mutilation is beneficial or desirable!
Any attempt to compare these two practices is malicious sophistry gone mad.

It's incredible that out of all the appalling atrocities by extremist Islamics that I listed in a post recently, this one has drawn all the attention. Why? because it's the only thing in the list which isn't exclusively Muslim. While I never suggested it is exclusively Muslim, I have been attacked and criticised for including it in the list, even though it is a widely practised barbarity in many Muslim countries.
Nobody here who is rational can deny that female genital mutilation is a disgrace. However, DonPanic, unable to effectively refute anything else on my list of crimes, seized on the fact that people other than Muslims also practise the mutilation of females. This was apparently a rather lame attempt to undermine the credibility of my post and thus mount some kind of misguided defence of Islamic extremists. He seems to have swallowed, hook line and sinker, all the media's biased reporting (or non-reporting) of extremist Islamic terrorism over the past 2 or 3 years, and has decided the West in general, and America in particular, are more evil than the terrorists. This is why I bring up the subject of media prostitution in this regard so often; because so many otherwise intelligent people are unable to differentiate between reality and propaganda ... that's to say, their Bulls**t Detectors don't work!
Clark, of course, ever a fan of moral relativism taken to absurd lengths, and a master of expanding trivial details into encyclopedias of pointless circular logic leading into his own peculiar brand of nihilism, pounced on this opportunity to start an irrelevant discussion on the extent of female genital mutilation in black Africa - typically and predictably missing the point..accidentally on purpose. :laugh: [Yes, thanks Clark. I had in fact read all the references you quoted before I made my post. Your pretention to philosophical superiority is noted .. AGAIN!]

All of this stands as further evidence that there is a large group of people, here and out there, who preferentially expound the evils of the West and go to great lengths to obfuscate extremist Islam's crimes.
Beyond some kind of perverted and guilt-ridden self-hatred by many Westerners, or a confused and jealous left-wing loathing of America (the current flag-bearer of Western power and prosperity), I can't work out a reason for this abandonment of balanced logic. It's almost a group-psychosis and quite fascinating, though frustrating, to watch from the outside.
???

[DISCLAIMER: The above statements are in no way meant to portray Bill White, his ancestors, or his heirs and successors, as sympathisers in the cause of Islamofascism or as in some way responsible for the death of Margaret Hassan.]

BWhite · 2004-11-19 22:16:59

After further reflection, post deleted.

Well done Shaun Barrett, a terrific troll. Really sucked me in.

Check out my new sig. . .

BWhite · 2004-11-19 22:24:04

I recently read rumors that China may decide to ally with Iran in the event we decide to take out Iranian nuclear facilities. Iran will be one nasty bucket of worms.

Euler · 2004-11-19 23:28:52

I simply can't believe that you wrote what you just did. In fact, female circumsition is something that I could have gone to war over. Never mind the oil in Iraq. It's a barbaric, painful, disgusting, mentally retarded, degrading custom that deprives females of the experience of being human. In short, it's despicable. Do you have any idea what a child must feel having to go through this? Personally, I'd rather be dead.

FGM is not a reasonable justification for the war in Iraq because it is not a common occurrence in Iraq. In fact none of the things on Shaun's list were common in pre-war Iraq, or in most other Arab countries.

We can't simply judge everyone by the actions of a small minority of the people in "their" religious or ethnic group.

Gennaro · 2004-11-20 02:47:45

FGM is not a reasonable justification for the war in Iraq because it is not a common occurrence in Iraq. In fact none of the things on Shaun's list were common in pre-war Iraq, or in most other Arab countries.

I didn't write what I did in relation to Iraq. I'm against the war and I believe everyone here knows it. That doesn't mean I excuse foreign cultures for everything. Neither do I entertain any illusions about Islam. Rather, I appreciate it as a long term threat on several levels.

We can't simply judge everyone by the actions of a small minority of the people in "their" religious or ethnic group.

In some countries I believe it's not a matter of minorities but the majority. Is it a coincidence this can go on in the Islamic world of today without anyone seemingly noticing, while it causes outrage in the Christian world?
I've even read newspaper columns in the national press where the practice was defended or toned down by an immigrant journalist. Why?

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