entrepreneur - funding

johnfuller · 2004-11-17 12:44:43

I can spend my time learning, studying and discussing but it will do little in advancing us closer to our dreams. Funding is a major limiting factor. The way in which I beleive I really could contribute is by creating wealth through business ideas and investment. Not as an individual effort but as a collective effort with other dedicated enthusiasts. I desire to create wealth to invest in a worthy future. I am willing to spend my time and energies creating wealth and learning and sharing the techniques of wealth creation with others who have a common vision. Collectively with the right methology as a group we could create our own funding and really put extra financial fuel behind space programs and research.

I propose the formation of a entrepreneur group fund of those truely dedicated. To share knowledge, to take on wealth creation projects, to lead, support and guide one another. I beleive over a period of 2 years a small group of intelligent dedicated individuals could raise in excess of $1m.

SpaceNut · 2004-11-17 13:22:01

There are several members on this board that already do participate in much that same way that you have described. Some are from the Mars Society from various nations and I am sure that there are others.

Just another organization to vocalize and or to do research, design or even for the raising of funds will not be enough.

Now if all organizations could link all projects, available funds into the design and build of space ventures then we might for at least a few leave this rock. But without a steady cash flow it will not last for there is not direct retur on investment even if you do charge by the seat for the trip.

johnfuller · 2004-11-17 14:02:27

What if we collectively buy and let multiple properties and contually increase our investment in the property market until the annual income from those properties say in 5 years times totals an anual revenue of $1m. Instead of investing this anual $1 into projects we save it and reinvest it continually until it has become such a large amount that in say 10 years time we can fund a large portion of a maned mission to mars. The more money we harvest the more public interest we would generate. Training others our tried and proven methods and providing them with the starting capital we can multiply our efforts.

What roughly would the cost be for a manned mission to mars in 2015 using the cheapest method currently known possible?

clark · 2004-11-17 14:25:20

You want to get people together to buy property, to lease, to make money, to fund a manned mission to Mars?

How does property management lead to greater public interest in sending people to Mars?

johnfuller · 2004-11-17 14:44:21

Property is only one lucrative means. The public interest will come from the increased awareness that a group of entrepreneurs are accumulating substancial amounts of wealth for the sole purpose of contributing funding towards a manned space mission. Our financial growth and aims will be made public, the companies we create and sources of income do not have to be related to space at all, they are simply means to accumulate funds.

RobertDyck · 2004-11-17 23:01:37

Sounds nice, but if raising money were that easy people would have done it long ago, not only for space projects but everything. Leasing property has its risks. I know, when I lived in Virginia I leased my house. You have to repair anything that doesn't look presentable, and if it gets damaged you have to repair it. I thoroughly cleaned, had the carpets steam cleaned, and had interior walls painted. Then you have to find good tenants, and deal with them if they don't pay. You have to advertise, and spend the time to present the house. Some tenants will not take care of the property; count on some damage from all tenants. I found good tenants, but they replaced the slide of the drawer in the workbench with a larger frame; the old one was fine and the new one is thin (weak) plywood. They marked light switches, the mail box, and side door with felt marker. A storm hit while I was away, and it blew a patch of shingles off the roof. My father was kind enough to work with the tenant to patch the roof, but when I got back I had to re-shingle that side of the roof. The second floor hall wallpaper and living room ceiling were water damaged. They started to paint one bedroom, but quit part way through. I asked for post-dated cheques for the entire duration of the lease, one each month. My bank accepted them as a batch and deposited them on each one's date. A service they offer for premium accounts; a flat monthly fee covers all services. When they move in you have to switch utilities to tenant's name; I paid the alarm monitoring fee myself to ensure it remained covered. When I bought the house the water heater was rented from the electric utility and power for it was a flat monthly charge. The person at the utility refused to switch that to the tenant's name, I had to pay tank rent and the flat fee to power it. When I got back the other person at the utility refused to keep them separate; insisting the bills had to be combined. Assholes; I'm the owner so it's my decision to make, and they couldn't even be consistent, but I had to go along with it. I was going to let them continue to lease it when I got back and buy a new house, but they wanted to move out. To make matters more inconvenient, they didn't want to move out when I got back or the end of the lease, but continue to rent for an odd number of months. I lived with my father until they moved out.

And all of that is with good tenants. I know other people who didn't pay their rent for months, got power cut off due to failure to pay their electricity bill, punched holes in the walls, let the bathtub overflow and water-damage the ceiling below, burn holes in the carpet, or pull nails from the hardwood floor to make rings. None of them were tenants of mine, but they are real people. I drove one to his bank to pay back-rent, met another by candle light due to no power, saw the hole behind a rock group poster, saw water damage round the tub, and a store owner tried to sell me one of the iron rings.

In another venture, a salesman wanted me to go into business with him to sell personal computers. He claimed he didn't make any sales, but I got a call from the wholesaler asking for confirmation of an order. I asked for his records and several sales were made by that salesman under my company's name. He paid cash but I was cut out of it; so I told the wholesaler not to accept orders under my company's name from anyone but me. I tried to sell computers myself, but didn't make many sales. One customer insisted on leasing; he made each payment later and later until claiming the payment was for the following month. Then he stopped paying all together. After several months of bugging him for payment, I found he purchased several new computers and still refused to pay me. I repossessed the one he leased from me; it's still sitting in a corner.

Any venture you get into will take a great deal of your time. You can't do it part time until you can afford to hire someone else to manage it full time for you. The manager's salary will take away from your profit and you have to find a competent manager. I suggest you start with just one business, and do something that you love. You'll have to devote at least 60 hours a week to it, and you'll have everyone trying to rip you off, so it has to be something you love enough to devote all your energy.

My great plan when I was in high school was to start a personal computer manufacturing business starting in grade 12 (1979), sell computers until big companies started to squeeze out small ones then shift into software, which I predicted would happen in the late 1980s, then when the software industry shook down I should have enough capital to shift into aerospace, just before the turn of the millennium. IBM got into the PC business in early 1980s but their initial offering was over priced. They fixed that and big companies dominated about the time I said they would. My partner scammed me for hardware components, so we never did finish a demonstrator for retail stores. We tried to do software, and we did provide custom software to small companies for a couple years. Due to his previous performance we agreed to work separately and only work on larger projects as a joint venture. That was successful for small custom programs, but when we tried to produce a major product for retail sale he wasn't able to stick with a single design long enough to finish it. He kept changing the design once a month, and when ever I tried to pin-down the design he insisted on changing it again. I tried finishing it myself, but it's hard working alone and you need some source of income to pay the bills.

I ended up getting a salaried job as a computer programmer, but after 3 years they got a new president and down-sized. I survived 3 rounds of IT lay-offs, but got out before I was next. The next company did great for a year, but hit financial difficulty; I was the last IT guy hired so the first laid-off. The next company had acquired several large competitors, then decided to consolidate IT departments by closing the one in my city. So I became a contractor; good work and occasionally good pay but there's down time between contracts. You have to search for the next job during down time so it isn't vacation. My current contract has a low pay rate, but gives me experience in the aerospace industry and I get to design and build hardware. I haven't designed hardware since I tried to build PCs, and this is the first time I designed instruments. In 1979 and the early '80s building PCs meant designing your own motherboard and video card, but I haven't done any since. During my programming career I have occasionally done machine language work, and developed device drivers. My current job is good experience, but the pay sucks.

So I'm trying to use my savings to research aerospace, establish contacts, develop space technology ideas on my own, and bid on contracts. One day I'll land a contract. Perhaps I should find some other business area to build capital; I thought of building houses, but I would want to build high-tech homes that are different. For me that means "Independent living" to use a buzz word. That means no utility bills. But that requires a photovoltaic panel with a low cost per watt. I'm still looking for that.

I guess I'm trying to say you have to carefully pick your money making business, then become so focused with it you're practically obsessed.

johnfuller · 2004-11-18 04:18:30

Yes there is risk involved in the property market. However this risk can be greatly reduced when you have the methology of professionals. I do not recommend any of us enter into ventures without professional training first. What I am suggesting is that for the highly profitable property market (when done correctly) would become one of our income sources we collectively perfect then once perfected and perpetuated we move to the next project as individuals but collectively. For eample one of us would take an advanced training course or workshop. We would select the best person for the training and have them gleam everything they can from the training. This individual would then train the others in the group and share all the necissary skills and resources with the others to enable each of us to produce similar productive results. Failures and risks will be reduced firstly due to the professional well sourced training our member has recieved and secondly due to feedback from the others of the group.

Very often the ideas are sound but the people and their methology are the failures. The property market can be a good example because from all the risks you have mentioned there are proven methods of avoiding and greatly reducing these risks. There is little chance of avoiding all these potential pitfals without specialised knowledge.

For me that means "Independent living" to use a buzz word. That means no utility bills. But that requires a photovoltaic panel with a low cost per watt. I'm still looking for that.

I beleive that at least basic financial indipendance is neccissary. I am working towards purchasing a property. Currently I do not need to work as my income exceeds my outgoings. I am far from where I would like to be but at least it allows me much more free time. This is why I am now focusing my attention to the things that really motivate and excite me. In a way I have been ignoring my thirst for knowledge and focusing on taking care of the basics. I wasted lots of time as a teenager and only in the last year and a half have I knuckled down and become mission critical in my approach to indipendance. I am 24 and still feel I am way behind where I could be had I made more intelligent discissions, planned and prepared. I beleie we can all learn a great deal from one another and take the first steps to financial indipendance and collectively realising a dream.

The reason property is a good starting point to financial indipendance is because it is available to us all no matter of our current status (will explain if required). Owning and correctly letting property means continual income for very little work. It's also a process that can be repeated. The first aim of our group would be personal financial indipendance. Then develope greater very financially rewarding projects from there.

RobertDyck · 2004-11-18 08:02:10

You are raising a lot of red flags here. As soon as someone starts to talk about "an advanced training course or workshop" or "I do not need to work" it sounds like a scam. There are a lot of organizations selling "training" courses for "get rich quick" scams. The only people who get rich are those giving the courses. There are also people trying to get others to invest in their "get rich quick" scam; the organizer takes off with the money and leaves investors liable for debts.

My great wonderful idea for houses is to build then with a tipple mode solar panel for the entire roof (heat air, heat water, and photovoltaic), geothermal heat pump with vertical ground loop, on-property well with an electric immersion pump, septic tank and advanced sewage processing system constructed as an attached greenhouse. Add large batteries for power storage, high efficiency DC appliances, and compact fluorescent light fixtures. Rural homes could add a windmill; it only provides 15% power of a photovoltaic array and has a 2.7 metre (8' 10.3") diameter rotor, but can provide auxiliary power when it's dark and windy. That means no electricity bill, no natural gas/heating oil, no water bill. During the summer (or winter for a southern state) you can sell power to the electric utility. The exterior can be constructed for zero maintenance simply by using all brick with anodized aluminum trim. That means no paint and no vinyl that could be subject to UV degradation.

My idea means building high quality houses for customers, and just selling them. It's simple and honest. I've built multiple garages with my father and brother, and finished a basement. My grandfather on my mother's side built houses for a living. I have experience with framing, sheathing, drywall, roofing, concrete (garage pad and sidewalk), installing electrical wiring, and even worked on heating ducts when we moved the furnace. I wouldn't want to do duct work myself again, I'ld hire a subcontractor. I'm not a certified electrician so I'ld have to hire another subcontractor, but I can oversee a subcontractor or install it myself and have an electrician inspect it. I know suppliers for all equipment and materials, a couple companies that use the sewage treatment system, and another company that consults and sells equipment for it. This means I am qualified and can do the work.

Notice the word "work". Running a business is work. If you're involved with the property management business, good for you. Don't ask others to invest in your business. Let's focus on space related business.

clark · 2004-11-18 08:14:17

I have some beach front property for sale on Mars.

BWhite · 2004-11-18 09:12:59

I have some beach front property for sale on Mars.

Sorry, my friend but that is simply lame.

I have coffee to sell in Chicago.

clark · 2004-11-18 09:29:56

Would you rather buy a slightly used space station?

What are the coffee sizes Bill? What are the flavours? How is the coffee presented? What do the employee's wear? How do they greet the customer? What music plays in the background? What hangs on the walls? What are the zanny names? What does it smell like? Who are the people in the store?

Do you drink it black?

Poke me in the eye will you.

RobertDyck · 2004-11-18 09:41:03

Do I get into too much detail? I strongly believe that before you accuse someone of something, you must first ensure you aren't guilty of the same thing. Before criticizing an idea, ensure you have a viable alternative. So I tried to express concerns with John's proposal, and ensured I could express practical experience that demonstrated these concerns. I also ensured my idea isn't guilty of the same thing.

I propose we pursue our jobs or business separately, and get together for space stuff. Unifying the space societies would be a good start.

SpaceNut · 2004-11-18 09:52:36

Robert I totally agree with the unification effort that is needed to band together all the various societies, organizations and others into the goal of space exploration.

But before private industry can get going I thank that other groups besides Nasa must be able to obtain funding by the government in a like fashion as Nasa or to at least be riders on the budgetary process in order to gain funding for projects that fit into the frame work of space exploration.

clark · 2004-11-18 09:58:17

Well, the best way to unify a group is to give them a common cause by which they can rally around in agreement, yet gives each individual organization a platform where their own particular interest is served...

So in that vein, what might be an idea, among many, is to to organize the various groups under a non-profit organization that pools funds to promote a lottery for individuals to fly in space.

We know a fixed cost for sub-orbital flights and their like, why not try to get tickets either at discount, or at full cost, and hold a lottery for people to get a ride?

The individual organizations get some PR, people get involved by becoming participants, and there is only the administrative costs with this venture to contend with.

Just an idea.

johnfuller · 2004-11-18 10:06:24

You are raising a lot of red flags here. As soon as someone starts to talk about "an advanced training course or workshop" or "I do not need to work" it sounds like a scam. There are a lot of organizations selling "training" courses for "get rich quick" scams. The only people who get rich are those giving the courses. There are also people trying to get others to invest in their "get rich quick" scam; the organizer takes off with the money and leaves investors liable for debts.

I totally agree. I do beleive however there are some genuine educational resources available. Getting involved in get rich quick scams and training courses is not something I would want anyone to get into. Also most of the knowledge that can be obtained can be learnt without spending any money.

My great wonderful idea for houses is to build then with a tipple mode solar panel for the entire roof (heat air, heat water, and photovoltaic), geothermal heat pump with vertical ground loop, on-property well with an electric immersion pump, septic tank and advanced sewage processing system constructed as an attached greenhouse. Add large batteries for power storage, high efficiency DC appliances, and compact fluorescent light fixtures. Rural homes could add a windmill; it only provides 15% power of a photovoltaic array and has a 2.7 metre (8' 10.3") diameter rotor, but can provide auxiliary power when it's dark and windy. That means no electricity bill, no natural gas/heating oil, no water bill. During the summer (or winter for a southern state) you can sell power to the electric utility. The exterior can be constructed for zero maintenance simply by using all brick with anodized aluminum trim. That means no paint and no vinyl that could be subject to UV degradation.
My idea means building high quality houses for customers, and just selling them. It's simple and honest. I've built multiple garages with my father and brother, and finished a basement. My grandfather on my mother's side built houses for a living. I have experience with framing, sheathing, drywall, roofing, concrete (garage pad and sidewalk), installing electrical wiring, and even worked on heating ducts when we moved the furnace. I wouldn't want to do duct work myself again, I'ld hire a subcontractor. I'm not a certified electrician so I'ld have to hire another subcontractor, but I can oversee a subcontractor or install it myself and have an electrician inspect it. I know suppliers for all equipment and materials, a couple companies that use the sewage treatment system, and another company that consults and sells equipment for it. This means I am qualified and can do the work.

This idea has great potential. It's the kind of house I would want to own myself. Yes it seems like a great deal of work but has the potential to generate great profits. Once the business has taken root your personal role would change and your involvent will be mainly managment. Subcontractors would do the work while you could focus your energies on expanding the business. I beleive in honest hard work. However the difference between you and those workers you would employ is that you have a dream that exponentially benefits humanity and you could use your resourcefulness and brillient ideas to aid the funding of a manned mission to mars with the awareness of the great impact and future implications of such a great feat.

Notice the word "work". Running a business is work. If you're involved with the property management business, good for you. Don't ask others to invest in your business. Let's focus on space related business.

I do not own a business, I have no training programs or get rich quick schemes. What little knowledge I do have I wish to share freely. I wish to group together in our efforts to create not one not two but many simple and honest businesses that collectively will help fund a manned mars mission in or very close to 2015. I ask that those who are succesful share freely their knowledge, help and encourage one another to acheive the same goals for a common purpose. This thread is about funding a manned mars mission by teaming together to create honest proven businesses solely for generating funds. I am trying to do this but as an individual I will be limited in what I can do. Property investment is only one idea and is an honest business.

BWhite · 2004-11-18 11:00:18

Use the settlement of space to create "killer" iconic brand identities. There, that is my idea on how to make money on space.

Buy the IBM ThinkPad notebook because that is the brand all the Mars settlers have been issued.

Fly Branson's Virgin Domestic airline (rather than American or United or Southwest) because Branson gives you a suborbital lottery ticket in lieu of frequent flyer miles.

clark · 2004-11-18 11:08:46

Yeah, but what can the little guy do Bill?

That's great for the big-wealthy corporation eccentrics, but we need things a little more down to earth... as it were.

SpaceNut · 2004-11-18 11:22:17

The trouble is you want to make purchase from those that are going to donate to the cause not just identity brands you want your organization to be associate with.

BWhite · 2004-11-18 11:27:36

The trouble is you want to make purchase from those that are going to donate to the cause not just identity brands you want your organization to be associate with.

If Nike pays $100 million per year to place their swoosh on the slippers worn by Mars settlers, aren't they contributing to the cause?

Yeah, but what can the little guy do Bill?

Write a book.

SpaceNut · 2004-11-18 11:54:15

yes Bill I had miss interpreted you thought and full meaning.
But how many would be willing to do so?

If I recall there was such a skeem to advertise from space but I do not recall who.

Palomar · 2004-11-18 16:39:20

*Nike?

You mean as in sweatshop labor (35 cents per hour -- or even less [I doubt they pay those workers that much even] -- in Malaysia) Nike?

Sorry Bill; but yes, I do know what you are getting at. Yes, money has to be made some way (and hopefully *not* via some mega rip-off company like Nike) to get us to Mars if our gov't fails us.

But the thought of corporate logos slapped all over Mars, everywhere in sight...ugh.

I want to see the U.S. taxpayer's dollars at work. I want NASA to be responsible to the taxpayer, I want to see RESULTS...I do not want to be beholden to corporate fat cats, over whom we have zero say and who aren't accountable to us in the least (yeah, go ahead and laugh -- NASA doesn't care what the average Joe/Jane thinks either, but there IS recourse to suggestions or complaints, etc., via writing gov't officials).

And also, I want to be ::a part:: of going to Mars; if U.S. tax dollars get us there, I'm part of it as a taxpayer. Apollo was and is ours because it was funded by the U.S. taxpayer. That's the way I like it (the socialist angle! Nyaaaa).

:;):

--Cindy

BWhite · 2004-11-18 16:59:21

*Nike?
You mean as in sweatshop labor (35 cents per hour -- or even less [I doubt they pay those workers that much even] -- in Malaysia) Nike?
Sorry Bill; but yes, I do know what you are getting at. Yes, money has to be made some way ( and hopefully *not* via some mega rip-off company like Nike).
But the thought of corporate logos slapped all over Mars, everywhere in sight...ugh.
I want to see the U.S. taxpayer's dollars at work. I want NASA to be responsible to the taxpayer, I want to see RESULTS...I do not want to be beholden to corporate fat cats, over whom we have zero say and who aren't accountable to us in the least (yeah, go ahead and laugh -- NASA doesn't care what the average Joe/Jane thinks either, but there IS recourse to suggestions or complaints, etc., via writing gov't officials).
And also, I want to be ::a part:: of going to Mars; if U.S. tax dollars get us there, I'm part of it as a taxpayer. Apollo was and is ours because it was funded by the U.S. taxpayer. That's the way I like it (the socialist angle! Nyaaaa).
:;):
--Cindy

First, I agree with you about the sweatshops. If some pampered suburban kid is given $175 pair of Air Jordans MORE of the purchase price should go to the factory workers.

No argument.

Second, if we boycott Nike (for example) and buy US made, that factory worker has NO job whatsoever. Is that good?

Third, if we buy off-label (but still made in sweatshops) and we pay $65 instead of $175 there is a smaller pie to slice, meaning it is less likely we can increase wages for the sweatshop worker.

If the American consumer held Nike's feet to the fire and $1 per pair of shoes (1 of 175) were added to the wages paid, the sweatshop laborer would have a huge increase in standard of living.

= = =

Corporate logos slapped all over Mars? Tacky won't sell anyway so don't worry.

= ==

Taxpayer funded? Never going to happen.

Palomar · 2004-11-18 17:03:28

*Bill:

Again, I want to be a part of going to Mars. Via our taxpayer's dollars. Like Apollo.

OURS. A part of it. :up:

--Cindy

::edit::

Bill: Taxpayer funded? Never going to happen

Eeeeep! :-\ Don't say that!

johnfuller · 2004-11-19 01:44:38

...I do not want to be beholden to corporate fat cats, over whom we have zero say and who aren't accountable to us in the least

And also, I want to be ::a part:: of going to Mars;

wouldn't my sugestion meet these two conditions?

Bill: Taxpayer funded? Never going to happen

True, Hence the need for something like what I am sugesting!

SpaceNut · 2004-11-19 06:49:37

We are sort of discusing the source of fundings in a few threads so I will repost here as well.

A tax income deductible donation much like the dollar for campaigne costs. We would still probably only get according to polls about 60% of what ever figure was asked.
Would I contribute an amount to the space programs? That is a Yes.
Would it be just for Nasa? I would hope that would be a no. For we need have more involvement by others in order to achieve this goal.

Then on the new thought I had was to sell Mars society items, such as the desert research facility as a model, a simulated mars RV lab rover, Astronaut action figures, a lunar and mars lander, a base colony model and the list goes on ....

A part of the sales could go right towards any future planning for either destination.

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#1 2004-11-17 12:44:43

Re: entrepreneur - funding

#2 2004-11-17 13:22:01

Re: entrepreneur - funding

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