Life zones - Stars of different ages!

Earthfirst · 2004-10-22 13:04:11

I was reading a story in magizene in which they reveiwed the life cycles of stars. Solar massed like our sun, and massive 15 sol mass suns. With one sol mass there is a long stable period were lumisty stays the same 12-10 billion years. Our sun is middle aged so we have like another 4 billion years untile our sun goes red gaint. With 15 mass stars they use up their H fule up fast, then burn He, C, O, N and upwards to Fe at that point the star cant burn any more. At it core the massive star implodes due to that that they is no push out from radiation, gravity wins. But also it said that it so hot that Fe atom fall apart into there amtomic parts into nuetrunos. That preced the super nova. Once the core implodes the outer layers expand in a large expolsin.
With our sun it goes to a red gait phase once it starts burning He. Now this phase will be stable for millions to a billion years depending on the star mass.
The life zones for a red gaint will be farther out then our current one, it said it would be Neptune and Kepler belt.
Could there hunderds of oceans moons and worlds in the making? This worlds are rich in water and organics like the earth, plus there will be no bombardment like the early earth had. So life will get a good start fast and wont have start over again after every big hit like the earth did. Even better people could just bring advanced life from the earth to save it from dieing in the red gaint glare.
The red gaint phase of are sun brings into a whole new time, will life embrace it like the yellow phase?
Another factor is that when the sun goes red gaint it will expand and losing its hold on the planets a little bit, this will save the earth from being burnt but it will still be too hot for life. Should we move the earth and others to save them from death? Example the earth would be a goble maga sea in space,
Mars a hot venus like place witha thick co2 atmosphere, so much for all those terraforming efforts! Juptors, and other gas gaints moons ocean worlds. Pluto with the temperature of 80 F, sedna the same. Who will embrace this new solar system I dont know, but it is neat to think about!

John Creighton · 2004-10-22 13:19:22

It is an interesting thought. Still the best years of life are the young ones not the twilight period. Another interesting question is how much nuclear power could be harvested from the gas giants after the sun dies. Doesn’t Jupiter produce a fair amount of its own heat.

MarsDog · 2004-10-22 15:50:06

Another interesting question is how much nuclear power could be harvested from the gas giants after the sun dies

If the Sun disappeared, a few of us could survive from heat created by the nuclear reactor in the Earth's core.

Big question is how small can a fusion reactor be built,
to slowly utilize Jupiter's hydrogen.

John Creighton · 2004-10-22 17:28:32

Big question is how small can a fusion reactor be built,
to slowly utilize Jupiter's hydrogen.

Forget mimimum size. Lets have a resonably size colony that uses atleast 10 MW of power. It will probably use alot more power if it hulls the stuff up into space.

Shaun Barrett · 2004-10-22 19:33:51

Our Sun won't become a red giant for maybe 4 or 5 billion years, it's true, but its output of heat and light is increasing all the time. From what I've read in recent years, we have less than a billion years before Earth's oceans evaporate, resulting in a stiflingly dense atmosphere which will emulate the runaway greenhouse effect on Venus (water vapour is a very effective greenhouse gas).
Some time before surface life finally succumbs to the heat here on Earth, Mars will be more like Earth is now - and it should be relatively comfortable for about 500 million years before it also becomes too hot for surface life.

But, whatever happens in 4 billion years, or even 1 billion years, is purely academic as far as the human species is concerned. Apparently, the average species lasts about 4 million years - that's million years, not billion years.
The human race, as we know it today, will be long gone and just a small part of the fossil record hundreds of millions of years before the above catastrophic scenarios come to pass.
We won't even be around to see Mars thaw out ... unless we do the job ourselves .. now!
:;):

John Creighton · 2004-10-22 22:25:09

the average species lasts about 4 million years - that's million years, not billion years.

And to the first approximation 100% of all species that ever existed on earth are extinct. We are still alive lets hope this means we are a little above the average. I don't want to hear a defeatist attitude. I want to hear the attitude of a survivor. Let humans be the most prolific life in the solar system ever.

P.S. How long have Jelly fish been around.

John Creighton · 2004-10-22 22:35:24

Life survives because it is able to find multiple nieces to support its existence. As long as the ecosystem is not too interdependent large parts can get killed off without effecting the survival of the whole system. The ecosystem will then recover by reclaiming old nieces and forming new ones. People though the use of technology have developed skills to survive in numerous nieces thoughout a broad rand of climate. We could conceivably develop technology to survive catastrophes such as nuclear winters and asteroid impacts. We could find places to survive on land, under ground under water or in space. We could even develop embryonic seeds that would recreate human life long after a catastrophe has wiped away our species. We can also change are selves into a collection of new species thereby reducing the survivability of the original homosiepian species but increasing survivability of our culture and technology.

Shaun Barrett · 2004-10-23 19:53:08

I can't remember how long jellyfish have been around but I think it's a very long time! From memory, sharks have been around for 200 million years or so and I think horseshoe crabs are an ancient species too. Then, of course, there are the famous coelacanths, whose fossils have been found from the age of the dinosaurs, and who are known to be still swimming in today's oceans, essentially unchanged in form.
But still, the average lifespan of a species is supposed to be about 4 million years. And, since multi-cellular animals didn't actually appear until the 'Ediacaran explosion' of lifeforms about 580-540 million years ago, that in itself puts constraints on the demonstrated longevity of a species - unless you want to include cyanobacteria. Cyanobacteria (blue-green algae) have been around for probably 3.5 billion years, perhaps longer, and are still manufacturing the stromatolites whose fossil remains have been found in eons-old rock strata in various places around the world.

So, you may be right I suppose and maybe humans will survive much longer than the average species. But we're such a young species, at about 200,000 years, that there's not much of a track-record to go by. And the wild card in the deck is our technology; we don't know of any other technological species with which we can compare ourselves.
But, whether evolution does it or whether we use our technology to change ourselves, deliberately enhancing our minds and bodies, I can't see us remaining in our presently recognisable form for even 10 million years, never mind for a billion!
Just an opinion.

atomoid · 2004-10-24 20:23:36

I think it will happen far sooner than that. For better or for worse, we might currently have some moral wrangling with this 'new' idea of tweaking our genes, but we'll soon get comfortable with fundamental and sweeping genetic intervention over just a few short generations, and by that time well have space elevators and colonies on mars and vast (hopefully beneficial) socioeconomic changes here on earth from its effects.

People living in space and on mars and asteroids willl have different appreciations towards the challenges of living and evolving, and ultimately toward what it means to be 'human', and will manipulate the genes of themselves and their offspring towards the "optimal", for whatever that might mean in its particular niche. For instance, one of the first major pressures will be low gravity living, a baby born into a low gravity life will develop having vastly different influences on the physio/psycho/cellular systems, and even leaving our genes alone, our natural inborn gene expression will probably progress slightly differently due to the different challenges posed during the devopment stages from fetus to adulthood, this alone probably wont do more than maybe alter bone structur, muscle tone, circulatory balances etc, but to solve the fundamental physiological problems and dilemas of low gravity life, well probably artificially alter our gene expression to adapt and thrive, in small digestable and morally acceptable steps but trending onwards towards the 'optimal'.

As these things progress, its only a matter of time before we blur the species barrier, and soon after, the human species will be an amalgamation of basically 'human' ideas, nothing at first too far of a step from what came before, but far outstripping any change posible with natural selection processes. Im really thinking this will come about in just a couple hundred years, some of us might even live that long, or even indefinately if the curve of scientific progress keeps its steep arc.

Once weve made it that far, well not so much classify oureselves as 'human beings' but more as 'sentient beings' with a common ancestry, splaying out across the cosmos, and eventually after millions of years and then billions of years, if we find that we cannot ever travel backwards through time, we might find a way to go 'someplace else' where we can sit in the Restaurant at the End of the Universe and watch the Big Crunch or the Big Rip (or whatever its going to be) from a safe distance...

Earthfirst · 2004-10-25 15:13:26

Yes that is all very fun to think about, will humans race live on far into time. Or will burn out like a canndle in the wind? Or will we blow up like an articial sun.
But my point was not weather Humans will be around in 4 billion years. It was that the live zone or habital zone as human centric people put will move farther out. All the way to Neptune and the KB planets. For as long as 100 million years our sun will be a stable red gaint. I was thinking could live get started and evolve on these new water worlds. Or will humans have all ready terraformed them, and imported native terra life forms? Also should we move inner plants out of the reach of the red gaint sun to save them.
If there are human there are not does not mater, but life does. For example Europa might have life, when the ice melts life will have a chance to evolve and spreed.
Think out side the Human life, and a whole new universe opens up for you.

Shaun Barrett · 2004-10-25 18:13:01

I see your point, Earthfirst, but there is the problem of gravitational fields and escape velocities.
At present, the outer solar system is cold. When a small moon or planetary body is very cold, any atmosphere it may have can remain on its surface because the average kinetic energy of the gas molecules is so low. The gravitational field is weak but the molecules haven't the velocity to escape.
Even so, today in the outer solar system, only Titan has an atmosphere truly worthy of the name.
If we imagine some future era, when the Sun is a vast red ball bathing the outer planets in warmth, the frozen seas of Europa and Callisto may melt and Titan's surface temperature might rise to equal Earth's present average. But then the problem of weak surface gravity will come into its own and cause trouble. Even the largest moons of the outer system, Ganymede and Titan, have surface gravitational accelerations equal to only 1/7th of Earth's - that's even less than Luna's! Within a very short timeframe, all the freshly melted water and the dense nitrogen atmosphere of Titan will have escaped into space, leaving dry airless rock behind.
In the past, astronomers have hypothesised that the massive atmospheres of Jupiter, Saturn, etc., might be driven off by the heat of a red giant Sun, perhaps leaving behind Earth-size rocky cores. Now that we've discovered Jupiter-like planets orbiting other stars, well within the orbital distance of our own planet Mercury, we recognise that hot gas giants can and do exist. So the likes of Jupiter and Saturn will retain their present form, even after the Sun has expanded into a red giant.
We can't live on the gas giants and their moons will all be like our own Moon, unterraformable, so what's left? All we could do, I suppose, is either move the inner planets outward, as you suggested, or keep dragging still-frozen KBOs inward to replenish the volatiles on our new home worlds. Either way, it's once more a case of playing planetary snooker!

By the time we get to that stage, with our own solar system on its last legs, we (if 'we' still exist) will have undreamt of technology available to us. We'll most likely have travelled to numerous other star systems and established ourselves there. Some of the stars around which we'll have settled might be K-type stars, which remain on the main sequence far longer than stars like our Sun and could sustain our civilisation for many billions of years after our own is finished.
So why worry?

Earthfirst · 2004-10-25 20:18:55

Yes you are right by the time mankind starts to move planets around like marbles, they would have all ready founded new homes around younger stars, or smaller longer lived stars like K types even red darths or in the atmospheres of brown darths. Still if there are still people around I think they will be senimental about their old home solar system, even though they moved well beyond are wildest imangations. The best part about a long vacation is returning home back to where the heart is. So saving the earth, helping life evolve in the new worlds by saving them from evaporation. Will be high on their list, also exporting earth life to other exoworlds that are dead will be important to. The greatest thing mankind could is become a force that brings life to a dead universe, populating thousands of dead worlds with life so it can evolve too. That idea is a big force with the terraforming mars crowd, why stop there? There has too millions of dead worlds just waiting to get life just like mars.
Maybe some alian race brought life to are early earth, mars, vense just because they thought life was important too. Look what happened one place life took off and here we are, there no reason why we cant do the favour for another dead world.

atomoid · 2004-10-26 15:19:23

Its also possible that we may find ways to alter the normal aging cycle of the sun, by either attenuating nuclear processes or adding/removing material through directable wormholes, after all, by that time, who knows what kind of things well be able to do... no need to move Earth, just 'fix' the sun.

yes, i think well always think of Earth as 'the cradle', for all we know, advanced life may be extremely rare and planets like Earth may really be freak anomalies in the scheme of things. So I do think our descendents will strive to preserve it for 'all time', using whatever means possble. Also, in that huge amount of time, i dont know if plate techtonics is a truly 'circular' process of surface renewal, or if some sort of fundamental slow but inescapeable degradation occurs to the materials and the core structure of Earth, so we might have to 'fix' that problem too...

REB · 2004-10-27 12:33:21

Using orbital tools, such as sun shades, lenses, and mirrors, humans will be able to control the climates of Earth, Venus and Mars. A solar shade that only let a percentage of Solar Radiation through it would help counter the effects of a warming sun.

I am working on a story about the end of the universe. In this story, most stars have burned out. The surviving races come up with several way to survive the darkening universe. Standard practice is to move yo0ur planet away from the dying star as it enters Red Giant phase and then move it back in as the star shrinks and cools. Eventually the race has to search for a new star, which are getting fewer, or find another way.

One way is to surround their planet in a shell that produces light. Hydrogen is their fuel they use to run this global light, and they scoop it off their frozen gas giant.

Another race has put ‘lights’ on it large moon so that it looks like a star and heats up their world.

Most other races tunnel into their world.

An aquatic race lives in a Europa like moon. This actually got me wondering if you could have a life zone in a Europa like ocean. Warm water is denser and it sinks, so wouldn’t the warm water stay close to the ocean bottom, creating a warm zone that covers the entire ocean floor? (Remember, you hear it from me first).

Our protagonist is in search of a fabled device that restarts stars. What it does is break down a star's atoms back into hydrogen and thus the star restarts itself. (You also heard that here first) Unfortunately, the people who guard this device are convinced stars are wasteful. They know how to convert matter 100% of matter to energy and they would prefer for stars to remain dark.

This has been a challenging piece to write. I hope to have it done in the near future.

REB · 2004-10-27 12:43:32

I almost forgot the kicker of the story. The protagonist learns that a bunch of advanced aliens are going to restart the galaxy. They are going to use some kind of gravity wave generator to create a new Big Bang, and then watch it from a safe distance.

Rxke · 2004-11-02 16:35:23

Kurzweil, in his 'age of sentient computers,' (or something like that, his most popular, forgot the title, as usual...)

er.. oh, yes: the end of the universe... It's at the end of the book, and he goes something like: 'I wouldn't be surprized, by that time, we would have a way to solve this...'

Meaning, we'll be able to somehow change the laws of physics themselves.

I read it there first!

If you like Greg Bear, I suggest you read 'Blood Music,' starts with a weird genetic experiment, leads to aa change of the whole universe (the laws etc.) almost overnight. Great stuff, in some places a bit long-winded but IMO, his best work, by far.

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Re: Life zones - Stars of different ages!

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