The need for a Moon direct *2* - ...continue here.

GCNRevenger · 2004-09-30 16:06:27

I think that electrostatic shielding able to deflect relativistic iron nucleii would have to be emensely powerful, and having an extremely charged space ship might be alot of trouble. There is also a concern that if they system fails, the crew is toast.

Grypd · 2004-09-30 16:11:42

There is that risk but the potential weight saving benefits could make it very very palatable. Also there is a design for Plasma sailor that would act like a solar sailor using plasma to provide the sails. This idea could benefit from technology cross transfers. Even if it does not work it certainly is something that should be explored, even if to prove it wont, as the possible benefits are really astronomical.

GCNRevenger · 2004-09-30 16:35:36

Would it? How much would the device weigh? If it consumes gobs and gobs of electricity, will the increased power source weight destroy much of the advantage of such a system? Will it be able to withstand Solar storms without failing, which is when it will be needed most? ...Good radiation shielding isn't that heavy either, LDPE plating spiked with Hydrogen gas, Boron, or Lead coupled with water and Aluminum work pretty well, and they will still work if your breakers are tripped during a Solar flare.

There are such a huge, vast, mind-boggling array of IDEAS for new technology to make travel to the Moon and Mars easier, so many that it would bankrupt NASA to explore a good fraction of them without building a single thing... There must be focus and an honest ruthlessness to avoid or abandon projects with dubious payoff, even with a fairly small price tag, as those tend to add up.

This plasma sail idea for instance... it won't be all that suitable for a Mars trip any which way even if it did work given the relativly short distances involved and high gravity involved, and would make direct or fast flights impossible. I wonder if it would take a long time for the return trip too given the "deorbiting against the sun" trajectory needed.

SpaceNut · 2004-10-01 11:36:24

When I first posted this topic had opened it with:

In Many of the discusions of topics we come back to what did the president mean by first the Moon and then beyound. To use the moon as a stepping stone to space. To sustain a Moon project does this mean a base, colonization and or can it be one shot after the other with nothing permanent ever built. We can keep looking a startup cost as well as the long term cost but are they really what is important to exploration.
If we go to the moon should we be looking to develope self sufficiency and less dependence on Earths resources. Should the moon be the next Launching pad to beyound? The questions keep coming or going and even Nasa is looking for information as to what is meant in the commissions report.

But since that time I have looked at the only model we have to follow in a word Apollo...

So what science value can we achieve by going back robotically or by manned mission?

How many robotic mission must be sent to the moon to prepare the way for man to practice the skills needed for Mars?

How many times will we go before we have Practiced enough?

Grypd · 2004-10-01 17:08:12

Our scientific value has to be what do we wish to do with space. If we go back using robots we will use them to develop and to create conditions to allow further detailed access to the Moon and to improve our space capability. If we send people at first it will cost more money to do what the robots have done and if we cancel we have an upgraded flags and footprints.

What can be done is to allow machines to prepare the way for people to go back to the Moon and to further our science. The Moon is a really good place to do science. Both planetary and physical science benefits from just being on the Moon and if we install an observatory our capacity for looking deeper into astronomy will be increased immensley. Only the Moon can allow us to listen without the interference of Earths increasing use of electronic communication to space. If we place our observatories at the east west and north south boundaries and the spaced evenly between of the lunar so called dark side we have using the laws of physics a telescope with the diameter of the Moon and with this we can see other planets around nearby stars. These observatories are easily automated as long as we have a constant prescence on the Moon.

This is just an idea of what can be done if we where to return to the Moon. But as to how long before we can do it. It depends on how we approach the planned return to the Moon. We can use satelites to find out as much as we can about the surface of the Moon. But we need to send a new breed of rovers to actually explore the surface and to return to the Earth the samples so gained. We could use astronauts but in the low gravity and high radiation exposure surface of the Moon a rover will likely be better to do this than people. Also people need consumables like air and food to operate and a rover does not, so rovers could work for much longer periods relying on solar power and batteries to tide them over the lunar night. People are needed on the Moon but it does not make sense for them to have to take everything with them to live. It does make sense to actually have a reasonable amount of infrastructure for them to walk into and to allow them to be able to function effectively on the Moon.

SpaceNut · 2004-10-06 07:16:10

For any and all of the plans for moon or of mars they all boil back down to a small group of variables that defines the ship or ships that we will use to do each.

1 crew size
2 Habitat
3 duration
4 consumables
5 reusuability or expendable
6 cargo or equipment to do mission
7 where are we going
8 transfer points to change or assemble vehicles ( earth to LEO, LEO to lunar orbit, Lunar orbit to lunar surface)

Unfortunately the numbers are linked together some more tightly than others. Man can not survive if he does not have food, water, oxygen, fuel, and power sources.

SpaceNut · 2004-10-06 07:42:06

Well here is one of the first steps for any future manned mission to the moon if we wish to use in-situ resources. The Chandrayan-1 mission, scheduled for a launch in 2007-08, will carry out the chemical mapping of the entire lunar surface.

http://www.keralanext.com/news/?id=53131

Grypd · 2004-10-06 08:42:17

Chandrayan-1 is a decent first attempt for India and it is especially telling considering the reasons the probe is going. Its a mineral survey probe.

Both India and China know for them to increase there populations quality of living to the degree that the west has they must either be in conflict for the same resources as the west and as such either a bidding war or have to find new resources. India like China wants to be the next superpower and they do not exactly like each other too well after the the war in the 1970s and the occasional artillery exchanges.

So India which we in the west have a tendency to discount wants to go the Moon and mine, interesting that they must have the will and determination that we lack.

It will come down to a new space race soon enough with the winner the new solar superpower and the use of the minerals in the heavens.

SpaceNut · 2004-10-21 07:05:25

Well in the other half of this topic I made note of the need for space suit developement and of some recent resources into that work.

Here is some of the work needed on the side of space suits as part of the needs of infrastucture.
The Right Stuff
The best materials and mechanical design savvy help spacesuit makers balance conflicting engineering goals.
NASA's plans to send astronauts back to the Moon and, ultimately, to Mars raises an important sartorial question: What ever will they wear?
http://www.designnews.com/article/CA450993.html

Well here is another update looking into the future from the past space suits as a comparison as to where we will need to be in 20 years or less.

041020_spacesuits_hLarge.hlarge.jpg

NASA researchers investigate way-out ideas
'Crazy' projects look decades into the future

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6284642/

comstar03 · 2004-10-21 20:12:40

A better style of spacesuite has been shown on TV through Star Trek - First Contact. Sometimes designer of real life uses should look more closely to Scifi technologies.

See yourself >

better helmet structure, and could use the Boeing electronic blind system through the glass to build an electronic face shield.

Commodore · 2004-10-21 20:41:28

A better style of spacesuite has been shown on TV through Star Trek - First Contact. Sometimes designer of real life uses should look more closely to Scifi technologies.
See yourself >
better helmet structure, and could use the Boeing electronic blind system through the glass to build an electronic face shield.

Those were dam nice costumes.

I suppose if we can pull off the Richard Simmons space suit, then those should be easy.

SpaceNut · 2004-10-22 06:31:59

Then comes the uses for mining the moon.

Mining The Moon

Rxke · 2004-10-22 07:56:15

Hmmm... The CCCP had similar dual visor thingies, I always wondered why NASA hasn't followed up... Probably because the 'classic' thinking: space helmet=crash-helmet, but it isn't, it is not meant to survive really hard impacts in the first place, it's for looking around, and *then* protectiion from impact... And you could do that with an all but full 'glass' helmet, with strong lattice of metal 'chickenwire' around it, id' guess... You need good viewing angles IMO.

Grypd · 2004-10-22 16:27:34

Then comes the uses for mining the moon.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science … on/]Mining The Moon

Helium 3 from the Moon is not enough on its own to permit a profitable venture to the Moon. But it is a very lucrative sideline and with the reasonably free access to vacuum and Low tempatures it is possible that Fusion powered by Helium 3 will first happen on the Moon.

What is really interesting is the other minerals that the Moon has. With the Moons lack of atmosphere and lower gravity it will be easier to find all the surviving metal rich meteorites that have struck the Moon and then to mine there Platinum. It is Platinum and the similar class of metals that will be needed in case we ever move to a Fuel celled powered transport systems. Even if we have difficulty doing this it will still be easier to send missions to the NEO asteroids to do the same from the Moon.

If we need these materials and with oil prices on the steady rise that they are going and with the Kyoto and oil reserves decreasing it will become more and more likely for something like this to be done.

SpaceNut · 2004-10-25 07:00:43

So lets itemize why do the moon at all:

Space vision, using it as a research and practice environment for future Mars manned flight

Mining, colonization, power

any other reasons anyone?

Can the only reason for doing the moon at all be science or is it also about doing business and making a profit. Either by creating infastructure or though supply chains to support the ongoing effort what ever it may be; are these the only driving forces?

Grypd · 2004-10-25 10:53:43

I would venture that the Moon would be used to support the other manned missions that go forth. The Moon when it is developed will be factory that allows us to fully develop the infrastructure and to support the exploration, utilisation and development of both near earth and deep space.

It has been noted that unless you can actually create this infrastructure and support we will always be limited in our capacity to go further or do anything. The development of the Moon into our space workshop is the only way that we can create significant strucures in space with our present or proposed technology base. Mars Direct is a plan that will allow us to go to Mars but not to stay. It also runs the real risk of a change of administration just cancelling the program. It happened to apollo it will probably happen to the Mars program. We will also find that our being on the Moon will give us the skill to consider developing Mars and to create machines that allow us to do it faster than we have presently thought.

There is many things that the Moon has going for it, it will never be place for mass colonisation like we can do with Mars but it certainly is a place we can work. so to add to the itemization.

Space Experience
Possible tourism
and probably one important detail
If we are developing the Moon and are seen as returning things to Earth that will benefit the planet it is harder for a change in administration to completely withdraw all funding.

SpaceNut · 2004-10-25 11:01:27

If mining of metals and smelting is part of the rocket build providing the inards are sent from Earth that makes sense right away.

Use solid fuels and mixed liquids as created from insitu materials would also make sense.

I also believe that the laws of supply and demand could also get into the picture but not at Earthly costs to export to the moon.

Grypd · 2004-10-25 11:27:21

Any initial phase of Moon development will I hope be done by telerobotic robots from Earth as these can work 24/7 then the first things done is to break down the silicon oxide to create the materials needed for more solar cells to provide more power to the initial and future bases. This would give us the oxygen "LUNOX" to provide to Earth orbit.

As we develop the Moon then it will be able to provide other materials to where we want them. The more industry we can create the more that can be provided where we need it and the faster that more industry we can create.

Also the Moon is the place to test out those technologies that we will never be allowed to use on Earth.

John Creighton · 2004-10-25 11:33:56

I agree creating oxygen is the first step. For that there doesn’t need to be any building. Or machine shops. The oxygen production will form the first component of the base and will be a valuable export to ISS. It also means less propellant will be needed for a moon mission. All soil going to oxygen production can be put through a spectral analyzer. This way industry and science will be achieved simultaneously.

Producing solar panels may be a little harder. I think they may need some rare earth elements to dope the charge carriers. Perhaps the rare earth elements could be brought from earth.

MarsDog · 2004-10-25 11:49:17

There is many things that the Moon has going for it, it will never be place for mass colonisation like we can do with Mars but it certainly is a place we can work. so to add to the itemization.

The Moon is Earth's sister planet, only 1.2 light seconds from us.
Minimum for Mars is 186 light seconds.
Satellite technology is spreading to other nations, so will the capability for Moon bases.
Mars may be too expensive to colonize soon, but not the Moon.
If you need a spare part on the Moon is only a few days away.
On Mars, you might want to make it there.

Moon is for tourism, closely integrated with Earth, Mars is for settlement.
On their way to Mars, the settlers would stop over on the Moon,
and could change their minds, before committing.

SpaceNut · 2004-10-25 12:15:52

So we have created the first oxygen supply by mining process and such but what is it to be put in, where is it stored and for how long before man is there to breath it or to use it for rocket oxidizer?

As for making solar cell panels yes more energy is needed as one continues to expand the presence of equipment and eventually man but can we make them on the moon?

MarsDog · 2004-10-25 13:55:04

http://www.permanent.com/t-massdr.htm]Elerctric Mass Driver will skip all the in between steps of energy conversion,
just photocell to (mv^2)/2.

Very large objects will be assembled easier in space, from the mass driven parts.

SpaceNut · 2004-10-25 14:00:00

Interesting post from your source on the magnetic rail gun which has been an idea for a long time. This maybe a reality on the moon some day but not if there are only robots.

John Creighton · 2004-10-25 14:06:13

Interesting post from your source on the magnetic rail gun which has been an idea for a long time. This maybe a reality on the moon some day but not if there are only robots.

Are they really that complicated to build and opperate? I think a rail gun would be preferable to a sling shot type mass driver because there should be less wear on the parts.

MarsDog · 2004-10-25 14:09:23

There is going to be a landrush to the Moon poles.
The space technology is quickly being acquired, even by Brazil.

The robots will be there to sweep the carpets and mow the Moon grass, inside the domes. Even to do routine construction. The critical jobs still need people, in the near future. And again, people will be needed to enjoy what the robots build.

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