The Spirit of Mars, or - Nuke those red bugs?

Bill White · 2002-08-26 19:44:35

If we were at K5 - I would label this post as MLP - "Mindless Link Propagation."

Anyway, please read the attached article by McKnight, who Adrian says was once a bigwig at the Mars Society, and tell me what you all think. The "nuke the red bugs" phrase is in the article, but neither I, nor McKnight IMHO, are advocating that position.

The article is called:

The Spirit of Mars

Please read and comment. . .

Josh Cryer · 2002-08-26 20:24:58

I don't understand the logic behind ?wait until we find out if there are more Earth-like worlds before terraforming? argument.

I find inhabiting Earth-like worlds much more ethically problematic, especially if we're doing it so that we can leave a few microbes alone. Note, that other Earth-like worlds would have life, in a higher abundance than say, a dormat world like Mars (asssuming Mars does have life, of course).

Phobos · 2002-08-26 21:14:53

I'd like to know also how the authors define "Earth like" planets. Do they mean Earthlike only in size or water volume or what? Obviously if a planet is truly Earthlike, especially from an atmospheric sense, it would have to be teeming with life to keep the atmosphere oxygenated since oxygen doesn't have a lot of staying power. And also, just how are we going to get to these planets? I can't see us, at least in this century, building giant interstellar starships (that would likely have to be multigenerational) just to get to these "Earth-like" planets. And the really bad thing is what do we do if we get to an Earth like planet after all that travelling time and learn it's teeming with life? Since I doubt most planets would have the exact composition of Earth's atmosphere we'd probably still have to terraform those planets somewhat if we want to create an environment a person could live in without special gear. And terraforming a planet with such a thriving eco-sphere would be a lot more criminal than terraforming Mars.

NovaMarsollia · 2002-09-20 15:03:58

Mars Colonization aint good for us or the bugs!

If you ask me--and i admit, you haven't--humans have no right to reduce the richness, variety and intrinsic value of non-humans (including Mars bugs) except to satisfy basic needs and to survive.

The point that I make is that NOT going to Mars does NOT jeopardise human survival or basic needs. The need to go to Mars to survive is just a callous cover for the space programme's bizarre aims. Fortunately these grand humanity-preserving claims are not, and probably never will be, convincing any one who makes national policy.

The other point is that the 'growth and expansion' fantasy of space expansonists is not a 'natural law' as some of you Mars-dudes think, either for humans or any other species. It's just a social construction, an anthropogenic projection, used to legitimize the taking over of some territory. Bee colonies, algal blooms, Pacific islanders moving home, may all be cited as indicating the 'natural'ness of this growth and expansion mythology, but these are all contingent social and biological processes that depend upon the unique characteristics and histories of particular islands, colonies and blooms. Many, many , many human and animals societies have never partaken in the growth and expansion dreams that Mars Soc members talk about, yet survive quite happily.

Another thing I might declare here is that I'm not advocating the protection of Mars' microbes becos of some vague potential to evolve cosnciousness. I'm advocating their protection becos of what they are already! To elavate consciousness over any particular biotic characteristic, say chemosynthesis, is just another sure sign of anthropocentrism since we ascribe higher value to something we think we have more of. Why not ascribe more value to chemosynthesis? Reason: cause the bugs would end up more valuable than us.

Am I an extremist? Or just a rational thinker?

Josh Cryer · 2002-09-21 13:38:35

No one from this board really believes that going to Mars is necessary for human survival.

We want to go because Mars calls to us, you might say. We are very adventerous. We have an overwhelming curiosity. If we wanted to go to Luna, would you still be saying the same thing? How about Venus? Nothing can live there (theoretically), what if we wanted to go live there? Would we still be horrible ?ethically dubious? creatures?

Okay, true, leaving Earth will arguably prevent us from going extinct 2 or 3 billion years from now (or any intermittent period between then when asteriods could wipe us out). But avoiding extinction is hardly our driving force. What drives us is a sense of exploration, of science, of adventure, hell, of culture.

NovaMarsollia · 2002-09-21 16:59:37

Hah-- a sense of exploration....if you are so curious why don't ya explore making this world a nice place. Every one is curious and adventurous, just some express that curiosity differently and don't need to imperipusly roam around the solar system like space cowboys to do it.

Josh Cryer · 2002-09-21 18:47:21

Hah, you use the word ?imperialist? so much, it almost lacks definition. Terran explorers, those who explore great forest, high mountians, deep seas, all on Earth, would be ?imperialist? by your definition.

NovaMarsollia · 2002-09-21 19:29:38

There's mountain-climbing and there's mountain climbing.

Climbing a mountain as a child on a saturday afternoon with only a few sandwiches is different from mounting an international taskforce of British Empire agents, roaming through the Indian continent like an arrogant arse and erecting a Union Jack on the top (like what Edmund Hillary did to honour the British Empire during QE2's coronation in 1953.

The point is, this second way of mountain climbing IS imperialist--you must admit--and all of the rhetoric of the Mars Soc is of reminiscent of THIS SECOND kind of mountain climbing, done in the honour of ongoing American West empire building (Zubrin, for inatance is fanatical about the West).

So don't get all moany when I subsitute Zubri's frontierism with the word imperialism. He bandies that term around like it has no meaning so you should be at ease with my use of imperialism (which is wholly more accurate anyhow!).

Josh Cryer · 2002-09-21 19:40:48

Well, I for one am not seeking Mars to honor an ?ongoing American West.? And I personally don't think the people of the Mars society are, either. In fact, I expect a highly disjunct society to be created by a Martian civilization. No American West ideals here.

Zubrin just uses the American West to extend a plausible reality. One I heartily disagree with, but one that has its merits. Regardless of how he paints Mars, it does not change his sincere desire to go there.

NovaMarsollia · 2002-09-21 19:47:11

I personally don't think the people of the Mars society are [advocating frontierism] , either.
Zubrin just uses the American West to extend a plausible reality.

Sorry--your dead wrong here. The books, papers, website etc of the Society are littered with hundreds of references to fronteirism in general and to American fronterism in particular.

And Zubrin categorically states that the American West is a 'valeable ideal' worthy of following since it opens up new space, new technologies, new ways of democracy. Yes--his thesis is all bullcrap (being based on the Turner Thesis and all) but he religeously believes it, (just ask him, I have!!)

Josh Cryer · 2002-09-21 19:52:04

Ahh, so you're saying that Zubrin likes Mars, not because it's Mars, but because it's a prime candidate to essentially reenact the American West?

You're suggesting, that if Venus were more hospitable, Zubrin would want to go there?

Or Luna? Why not Luna?

NovaMarsollia · 2002-09-21 19:54:46

Ahh, so you're saying that Zubrin likes Mars, not because it's Mars, but because it's a prime candidate to essentially reenact the American West?
You're suggesting, that if Venus were more hospitable, Zubrin would want to go there?
Or Luna? Why not Luna?

I'm not saying it Zubrin is saying it. And he chose Mars because it is the easiest place to do it. Good-bloody-luck to him though!

Josh Cryer · 2002-09-21 19:57:44

Well, Mars is the easiest place to do it. But I don't think this idea of a ?Western Frontier? is Zubrin's full driving force. He may discuss the frontier a lot, but I still think he has an intrinsic love for Mars itself, and not potential things it holds for anyone.

NovaMarsollia · 2002-09-21 20:24:28

Nope, it might not be his only argument--that's for sure. He also trifles around with other stupid justifications (like manifest destiny and natural evolution and all that crap) but fronterism is a BIG part of his rhetoric!

As for his love for the INTRINSIC Mars Ha ha ha ha. You gotta be kidding. He's a megalomaniacal dreamer whose using Mars to try to leave a mark in the universe! I mean, he's just a freakazoid weirdo that believes one of the new cities will bare his name 'cause we'll al remember him as the founder of the Mars Society. Sad man. But his followers are even sadder.

Auqakah · 2002-10-30 13:47:21

Such a cynical opinion. What reason is there for you to say that anyone wishes to go to Mars for any other reason than the one that they state?

Is it impossible for someone to wish to do something, simply because it is what they wish to do?

Or is it wrong for someone to want to do something, for the pure and simple reason that they wish to do it, in your opinion?

If that is your opinion, then that is far more imperialistic than anyone advocating the exploration and colonization of space.

And humanity learns by analogy. In order to further grow, we need to know more - not because the best way forward is not yet lit, but because the majority of people lack the vision to see the light before them. And so we must explore, and find new analogies, and new symbols, so that we might better understand ourselves.

Is that not a noble cause?

Palomar · 2002-10-30 14:32:06

Such a cynical opinion. What reason is there for you to say that anyone wishes to go to Mars for any other reason than the one that they state?

*Just so you know, Nova Marsollia isn't posting here anymore...Adrian showed him the door.

--Cindy

Aetius · 2002-11-02 21:31:31

NovaMarsollia will now have plenty of time on his/her hands to e-mail friends and rant about the evils of technological civilization..and how she and her friends are going to "fix" everything someday, like Pol Pot tried to. * shudder *

Bizarre aims? The only "freakazoid" here is the one Adrian just banned. Hooray!

Sincerely,

A "Techno-Imperialist"

srmeaney · 2005-03-18 09:02:47

Terreaforming is purely for the purpose of spreading life. There is no way we can possibly acieve personal gain from something that will take between one thousand years and eight billion (depending on the level of resources we are willing to waste). Terraforming Mars is in it's final result a self sufficient hole in the dirt for a few to hide while the rest of us duke it out. Using up the only two resources we have left. Uranium and Life.

srmeaney · 2005-03-18 09:06:02

If we use nukes in terraforming, it will be to achieve decay in toxic elements that would take too long remove under any other conditions.

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#1 2002-08-26 19:44:35

Re: The Spirit of Mars, or - Nuke those red bugs?

#2 2002-08-26 20:24:58

Re: The Spirit of Mars, or - Nuke those red bugs?

#3 2002-08-26 21:14:53

Re: The Spirit of Mars, or - Nuke those red bugs?

#4 2002-09-20 15:03:58

Re: The Spirit of Mars, or - Nuke those red bugs?

#5 2002-09-21 13:38:35

Re: The Spirit of Mars, or - Nuke those red bugs?

#6 2002-09-21 16:59:37

Re: The Spirit of Mars, or - Nuke those red bugs?

#7 2002-09-21 18:47:21

Re: The Spirit of Mars, or - Nuke those red bugs?

#8 2002-09-21 19:29:38

Re: The Spirit of Mars, or - Nuke those red bugs?

#9 2002-09-21 19:40:48

Re: The Spirit of Mars, or - Nuke those red bugs?

#10 2002-09-21 19:47:11

Re: The Spirit of Mars, or - Nuke those red bugs?

#11 2002-09-21 19:52:04

Re: The Spirit of Mars, or - Nuke those red bugs?

#12 2002-09-21 19:54:46

Re: The Spirit of Mars, or - Nuke those red bugs?

#13 2002-09-21 19:57:44

Re: The Spirit of Mars, or - Nuke those red bugs?

#14 2002-09-21 20:24:28

Re: The Spirit of Mars, or - Nuke those red bugs?

#15 2002-10-30 13:47:21

Re: The Spirit of Mars, or - Nuke those red bugs?

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Re: The Spirit of Mars, or - Nuke those red bugs?

#17 2002-11-02 21:31:31

Re: The Spirit of Mars, or - Nuke those red bugs?

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Re: The Spirit of Mars, or - Nuke those red bugs?

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