Closer view of springs inside Endurance crater.

ERRORIST · 2004-05-04 21:43:27

Are they springs that may come and go during different seasons? Look at the right side of picture just under the outcropping. Many channel looking features. Click in bottom right corner to enlarge.

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/ … ...M1.HTML

REB · 2004-05-05 06:52:00

Hard to say what they are, but to me, they look like fractures, probably caused by the meteor blast.

I may be jumping the gun here, but it looks like the smooth lower layers weather differently from the jagged upper layers. The upper layers are probably the marine deposited ‘blueberry’ layers. The lower layers might be made of something else, like volcanic ash.

To bad we are not near any gullies like these;
http://www.msss.com/moc_gallery/e13_e18 … 01546.html

C M Edwards · 2004-05-05 08:05:34

REB, I don't think these are just fractures.

Color images of the same area reveal that the supposed channels are discolored compared to the surrounding rock, and they appear to be depressed into the rock surface like water weathering channels. More importantly, there is no apparent vertical displacement from one side of each channel to the other. The horizontal rock layers run right from one side of the channel to the other, with no lifting of either side to indicate a fault line. For comparison, the rock layers above the channels and the rock formations in Eagle crater show significant vertical displacement at many fault lines. Those rocks were broken, and show it. These channels don't.

Further, although their development is likely quite recent and not a long term indicator, lighter dust streaks, the "dune" shapes in the crater center and other features reveal that these channels do not run in the same direction as the prevailing winds through the crater. These channels were made by something moving down the rock face at an angle to the recent winds. Water seems like an excellent candidate to me.

Errorist might be right, but in spite of that risk, I think it's important that his speculations be examined further.

Shaun Barrett · 2004-05-05 08:17:06

Thanks, CM. This isn't the first time you've added a scholarly note to these discussions about martian surface features. Very interesting input and much appreciated.

ERRORIST · 2004-05-05 16:08:05

Don't know what is causing the channels but water seems to be seeping from just below the rock formation at different times of the Martian year. Perhaps if the rover stayed long enough it may catch the process in action.

dweav256 · 2004-05-05 19:43:26

I would say without a doubt that these are springs. I have been studying springs for a while, and in my opinion that is what we are looking at in these images. It is only a matter of time before water is proven to exist on Mars. I envision Home Depot and Wal-Mart stores on Mars before we know it.

ERRORIST · 2004-05-05 20:08:54

Dweav256,
Wow, that would be neat, and with this much water you could get your supplies to build your own sprinkler system, and solar powered to boot. He he very funny.

REB · 2004-05-06 05:59:56

I hope you are right. I would love to see springs.

From the gullies that MOC images have shown us, we know they are possible.

ERRORIST · 2004-05-06 08:23:37

I think, I remember them mentioning they could be seasonal.

atomoid · 2004-05-06 14:39:41

I hope you are right. I would love to see springs.
From the gullies that MOC images have shown us, we know they are possible.

The leading theory is that the "gullies" are NOT formed by springs (that was the first hypothesis back in 2000 using MGS data (the "ice-dam" idea), the problem with this was that the "springs" come from high up in the crater walls, and there is no chance of a water table being this high)

The most likely hypothesis (using Oddyssey data from a couple years ago) is that the gullies are formed under a blanket of snow which is in turn underneath a blanket of dust (this snow theoretically still exists to this day right next to areas where it is all evaporated away and has revealed the gullies to us. the areas where snow still exists correspond to areas of less sunlight so it fits all the observations). So the sun slowly warms the snowpak, protecting the water beneath it from freezing, this allows it to melt and run down the slope under cover of the snowpack and carry debris away forming the gullies. Eventually the snowpack melts/evaporates away and reveals the gullies to the sky.

ERRORIST · 2004-05-07 17:56:39

Could be what looks like caused a mud slide or a land slide if this was a weakened area????

atomoid · 2004-05-08 23:52:55

Here's one scenario for creating the apparent "springs" we see without the need for a water table:

Water vapor condenses in these cracks since they are out of sunlight and are colder than the surrounding rock, a perfect heat-sink. The condensed water vapor likely freezes as small transient icepacks which build up slowly and then under certain conditions and if they have persisted long enough will melt and drip onto the bedrock below and erodes the channels we see.

Also, maybe the water drips pick up the eroded soils to form small balls that roll downslope and quickly dessicate. If so, then below these channels we should see smaller spheres that are unlike the blueberries weve been looking at, that is, unless they completely fall apart at the bottom or on their way down.

ERRORIST · 2004-05-09 08:01:36

Can you see what looks like alluvial deposits (Fans) at the base of these channels?

atomoid · 2004-05-09 14:03:38

Can you see what looks like alluvial deposits (Fans) at the base of these channels?

it does indeed look like some minor washout debris curtain at the bottom of the channels but we need a closer look to be sure of the
nature of it. From this far away its hard to tell if its not just debris built up through waterless erosion being the blueberries and pebbles
carving the channels instead of water. The dark stuff in the channels might just be blueberries instead of stains or mineralization
deposited by water. Also, from this perspective its hard to tell if the channels were originally cracks that got weathered or if
they originated as erosion carved channels...

ERRORIST · 2004-05-09 15:19:02

Looks like Bunker C fuel oil now with that enhancement. I
think gravity would pull any round spheres on down the hill, and would not get stuck in the channels.

ERRORIST · 2004-05-09 15:22:05

Looks like Bunker C fuel oil now with that enhancement. I
think gravity would pull any round spheres on down the hill, and would not get stuck in the channels. I find it strange the channels only occur where the rock outcroppings occur. It looks just like in the mountains where water seeps from the bedrock up in North Georgia.

C M Edwards · 2004-10-12 17:22:31

*BUMP!*

This particular feature, Burns Cliff, is on the schedule for Opportunity to examine before attempting to depart Endurance crater.

Apparently they've saved the best for last.

ERRORIST · 2004-10-18 21:50:10

What other possible subsurface liquids could there be on Mars?

C M Edwards · 2004-10-21 12:35:45

What other possible subsurface liquids could there be on Mars?

At this point, liquid water would be an "other possible subsurface liquid", since it's never been confirmed to exist. There's also been speculation about liquid carbon dioxide being able to exist deep under the Mars polar ice caps (many kilometers north & south of Opportunity). If there's liquid there, it's almost certainly water.

Of course, there are other possibilities (hydrocarbons, alcohols, etc.) but most have even lower evaporation limits than water.

ERRORIST · 2004-10-25 10:46:42

How close can they get to those channel features with the rover?

C M Edwards · 2004-11-01 16:29:12

We're about to find out how close. I'm guessing closer than they should: the terrain at the immediate base of the cliff is similar to some that's scared them off before. Opportunity is on its way there now. They may saved the crater's most fascinating feature till last because they're anticipating the need to test their luck.

C M Edwards · 2004-11-05 12:51:58

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/ … ]Panaramic Camera Photo from Sol 277

This closeup reveals that the channels are dust filled. That accounts for much of their color. Some of the channels run through sections much flatter than the rest of the cliff, and the rover may be able to reach them.

Something interesting is visible in this image. Follow each channel to its source: Don't those look like small holes in the outcrop at the head of each channel?

Also, I had assumed that the layer above the formation with the channels was broken by an impact shock. But what if the culprit was thermal stress from freezing water instead? It would explain why the top layer is shattered while large sections of the lower layer appear intact.

Shaun Barrett · 2004-11-05 19:02:42

I see your point, CM.
It's always hard to tell from the pictures but getting close to those 'holes' looks tricky. People rave about the MERs, quite rightly, but their limitations are brought home to us, all too clearly, when you see such tantalising targets and have to ask whether we'll be able to fully analyse them or admit the terrain beat us.
Any astronaut/geologist let loose in that crater for just a few hours, with hammer, pick and shovel, would have the whole place mapped and characterised. We'd probably have reached and exposed any underground ice and, who knows, even split apart some of those soft rock layers and found a macroscopic fossil by now.

I'm amazed at what the MERs have achieved but my frustration is often more than equal to my amazement. We need to go there ... NOW!!
:bars2:

dicktice · 2004-11-06 13:34:51

Shaun: We need to go there, okay . . . but unless "we" are willing to stay and work and report findings until out of life support . . . not "now," because the return would multiply the cost and complexity of the Mars Mission by 10X, at a guess, taking iinto account returned materials quarentine in LEO, etc. Any volunteers for a no-return Mars Direct Mission?

Shaun Barrett · 2004-11-06 20:21:07

Dicktice, this is the wrong place for this kind of discussion, so I'll be brief. As you may remember, I don't believe quarantine is necessary because I'm convinced any martian bacteria will be no different to terrestrial bacteria - due to frequent exchange of viable organisms, or their spores, in impact ejected crustal material over the eons. Our contamination of Mars with inadequately disinfected hardware since the sixties has only strengthened my argument.
In any event, astronauts returning from 500 days on mars will have automatically performed all the 'incubation-of-extraterrestrial-bugs' we'll ever need. If there are dangerous pathogens on Mars, our intrepid explorers will have discovered them .. and died! They won't be coming home with them.
So, the chances of dangerous alien bacteria on Mars are essentially zero but, even if by some incredibly unlikely sequence of events they do exist there, they'll never make it back to Earth. End of problem.
Last question: Would I go to Mars tomorrow and risk infection and death? Damned right I would, and so would any real astronaut you care to ask! We've got to get away from this zero-risk mentality which is creating a race of wimps and couch potatoes.
:rant:

[End of rant. I'll go away now. ]

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#1 2004-05-04 21:43:27

Re: Closer view of springs inside Endurance crater.

#2 2004-05-05 06:52:00

Re: Closer view of springs inside Endurance crater.

#3 2004-05-05 08:05:34

Re: Closer view of springs inside Endurance crater.

#4 2004-05-05 08:17:06

Re: Closer view of springs inside Endurance crater.

#5 2004-05-05 16:08:05

Re: Closer view of springs inside Endurance crater.

#6 2004-05-05 19:43:26

Re: Closer view of springs inside Endurance crater.

#7 2004-05-05 20:08:54

Re: Closer view of springs inside Endurance crater.

#8 2004-05-06 05:59:56

Re: Closer view of springs inside Endurance crater.

#9 2004-05-06 08:23:37

Re: Closer view of springs inside Endurance crater.

#10 2004-05-06 14:39:41

Re: Closer view of springs inside Endurance crater.

#11 2004-05-07 17:56:39

Re: Closer view of springs inside Endurance crater.

#12 2004-05-08 23:52:55

Re: Closer view of springs inside Endurance crater.

#13 2004-05-09 08:01:36

Re: Closer view of springs inside Endurance crater.

#14 2004-05-09 14:03:38

Re: Closer view of springs inside Endurance crater.

#15 2004-05-09 15:19:02

Re: Closer view of springs inside Endurance crater.

#16 2004-05-09 15:22:05

Re: Closer view of springs inside Endurance crater.

#17 2004-10-12 17:22:31

Re: Closer view of springs inside Endurance crater.

#18 2004-10-18 21:50:10

Re: Closer view of springs inside Endurance crater.

#19 2004-10-21 12:35:45

Re: Closer view of springs inside Endurance crater.

#20 2004-10-25 10:46:42

Re: Closer view of springs inside Endurance crater.

#21 2004-11-01 16:29:12

Re: Closer view of springs inside Endurance crater.

#22 2004-11-05 12:51:58

Re: Closer view of springs inside Endurance crater.

#23 2004-11-05 19:02:42

Re: Closer view of springs inside Endurance crater.

#24 2004-11-06 13:34:51

Re: Closer view of springs inside Endurance crater.

#25 2004-11-06 20:21:07

Re: Closer view of springs inside Endurance crater.

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