All of you have it wrong

mr mirana · 2004-10-04 04:51:28

I'm on slow library computers again, so I'll be brief. Kaku's book is an excellent overview of recent scientific developments and their possible consequences in the century to come, everything from genetic engineering to space travel, highly recommended. I'll try to track down the books you recommend too. I tend to think that any civilisation which progresses from Type 0 - our civilisation - to Type 1 on the Kardashev scale would inevitably go through a period of world government, though to what extent and of what type I don't know. Those opposed to the notion might see it as a tyranny or an unaccountable 'democracy' in name only, threatening both individual 'rights' and the interests of nations; those in fabour of the idea might take a more optimistic 'Star Trekky' view of the whole project as a world unifying endeavour to put aside the conflicts of the past. Such a notion causes friction of course with those who don't want to put aside the conflicts of the past, which is one of the reasons I don't think world government will come about without severe violence first. The Capra inspired systems-view of the process would take this as the period of chaos before a higher order emerges. As RA Wilson so often remarks, 'Society is not breaking down, it is breaking through.' As I said, my inner optimist hopes so. I'll write more here when I'm on the faster system in the net cafe.
Morris, are we the only ones here?

( Thanks for tautology clarification, BTW! )

Morris · 2004-10-05 07:13:09

I have the Kaku book on hold at the library. It's overdue and so I don't know whether this will be one of those cases where they simply decide to pay for it rather than returning it. I also notice that he has an interesting looking book entitled Hyperspace. I may read it while waiting for Visions.

I haven't followed up on Kardashev yet. I've been reading an outstanding book entitled Boyd: The Fighter Pilot Who Changed the Art of War. It provides, one one hand, a very discouraging picture of how our government typically operates and the very painful outcomes for those who try to restore integrity from within the system. On the other, it shows what can be accomplished by men of integrity if they truly don't care who gets the credit. While not an intention of the book, it also shows how a foreign rival could "wax our ass".

I vaguely remember reading some RA Wilson some decades ago. I think I was turned off by some of his more doubtful "New Age" speculations.

I like New Age works like Marilyn Ferguson's The Aquarian Conspiracy who stick fairly closely to real science and informative data. While they often stretch the conclusions they have the science as their starting point. Ferguson introduced me to concepts such as mathematical catastrophe theory, fractals, and self-organization/emergent phenomena. Looking back I realize that she brought into American discourse much important work that was going on in Europe. But too many "new agers" get off into really weak ideas like "Illuminati" conspiracies, channeling, and various forms of mysticism.

In any event, if you have a recent Robert Anton Wilson work that you especially like, please let me know.

Morris, are we the only ones here?

No, I don't know why people aren't responding to this thread though I have some speculations. For one thing many of these basic ideas have been explored before, sometimes ad nauseum, in other forums and threads. For another, some of the books and names are not generally known and that requires a little background work for those more seriously interested in this particular topic. Then, there is reference to "anarchy" as a serious political system and that just makes a lot of people uncomfortable. After all that was the big "bogeyman" in American politics before communism came along (as it was in Russian politics). And, I think that the notion that someone has to use library and internet cafe computers really makes some people uncomfortable. A social ambience sort of thing. Finally, the authors you cite that they do recognize have a "New Age" aura and nothing is treated with more contempt in wide circles of the scientific and technological communities, circles which are heavily represented on these boards.

Palomar · 2004-10-05 08:19:54

Morris, are we the only ones here?
No, I don't know why people aren't responding to this thread though I have some speculations.

*Okay, I'll bite. (Have just revisited this thread after about a week of not checking it)

I've read some of RA Wilson's books and have mentioned him a couple of times; but then I've been at the boards for nearly 2-1/2 years now and we have a kazillion threads...so no, of course I don't expect relatively new members to have known about this.

Have read "Cosmic Trigger I" -- "Prometheus Rising" -- and portions of "The New Inquisition." Have considered buying and reading "Everything is Under Control," but haven't yet.

Wilson has some interesting food for thought. A former acquaintance of mine really enjoyed Wilson and recommended him to me. I've not been as "into" Wilson as he was (by a long shot), but he's recommendable.

Marilyn Ferguson. Am familiar with the name and the book title you mention, Morris, but have not read it (and likely won't, for a variety of reasons).

--Cindy

Morris · 2004-10-05 12:55:17

Thanks for the additional titles on Wilson. Are there one or two you prefer?

Marilyn Ferguson. Am familiar with the name and the book title you mention, Morris, but have not read it (and likely won't, for a variety of reasons).

Well Ferguson is an old book by now and many of her topics have been taken up by others. However, for those not familiar with them she has the ability to explain complex things very clearly. I think that if her title weren't so misleading that the book would have been much more widely read.

Hoo-ah for Bert Rutan and Space Ship One!!!!

Well, this is one of the few threads I have been contributing to recently so I will tell everyone here that I won't be responding for some time. I got word today that my mother broke her hip and I will be going out of state. My parents live in a small rural town and they don't have a computer so it may be some time before I am on again.

Palomar · 2004-10-05 13:03:59

Thanks for the additional titles on Wilson. Are there one or two you prefer?

*Prometheus Rising. Challenges the reader to think and re-think. Definitely good gray-matter stimulation.

Well, this is one of the few threads I have been contributing to recently so I will tell everyone here that I won't be responding for some time. I got word today that my mother broke her hip and I will be going out of state. My parents live in a small rural town and they don't have a computer so it may be some time before I am on again.

*Sorry to read all of this. Best wishes to your mother, and on your journey. Will miss your input here.

--Cindy

mr mirana · 2004-10-07 05:10:41

I have the Kaku book on hold at the library. It's overdue and so I don't know whether this will be one of those cases where they simply decide to pay for it rather than returning it. I also notice that he has an interesting looking book entitled Hyperspace. I may read it while waiting for Visions.

I vaguely remember reading some RA Wilson some decades ago. I think I was turned off by some of his more doubtful "New Age" speculations.
I like New Age works like Marilyn Ferguson's The Aquarian Conspiracy who stick fairly closely to real science and informative data. While they often stretch the conclusions they have the science as their starting point.
In any event, if you have a recent Robert Anton Wilson work that you especially like, please let me know.
Morris, are we the only ones here?
No, I don't know why people aren't responding to this thread though I have some speculations. For one thing many of these basic ideas have been explored before, sometimes ad nauseum, in other forums and threads. For another, some of the books and names are not generally known and that requires a little background work for those more seriously interested in this particular topic. Then, there is reference to "anarchy" as a serious political system and that just makes a lot of people uncomfortable. After all that was the big "bogeyman" in American politics before communism came along (as it was in Russian politics). And, I think that the notion that someone has to use library and internet cafe computers really makes some people uncomfortable. A social ambience sort of thing. Finally, the authors you cite that they do recognize have a "New Age" aura and nothing is treated with more contempt in wide circles of the scientific and technological communities, circles which are heavily represented on these boards.
Kaku's Hyperspace is very good, though covering much the same ground as The Elegant Universe. If I had to recommend any RA Wilson they would have to be Prometheus Rising and Quantum Psychology. Not recent, but in my view his best. Especially if you do the exercises. The contempt of some parts of the scientific community doesn't worry me. I find it ironic that my interest in science was reawakened by reading such authors as Aleister Crowley, RA Wilson and others, while the 'education' in scientific subjects I received at school turned me right off science more rapidly than I could imagine, having previously found it fascinating. So I now reach a point in my life where I am frantically trying to catch up, and Martian studies - how wonderful if we could study that at Univerisity - seems to encapsulate so much that is cutting edge in hard science and imminent developments therein.
Anarchism. I know what you mean, the very word can be a turn off to some people, equating it as they do with chaos and various other negative ideas. At my local library I once tried to print an article by Kropotkin entitled 'What is Anarchism?' from an old edition of the Encyclopaedia Britannica. The library's onlice censorship wouldn't let me access it, 'Denied - Classification: crime.' An article from Britannica denied me at a LIBRARY!! In anarchism, as in 'new age' - and I can't express my loathing of that term - we all make up our own minds.

Hmm. Yes.

mr mirana · 2004-10-07 05:13:07

Morris, you'll notice my post got included in your quote! I have Forum Confusion Syndrome, so please be patient!

http://www.betterhumans.com]http://www.betterhumans.com

Morris · 2004-10-21 10:04:07

Morris, you'll notice my post got included in your quote! I have Forum Confusion Syndrome, so please be patient!
http://www.betterhumans.com]http://www.betterhumans.com

Yes, sometimes some strange things happen on the board. I understand that Josh Cryer can deal with some of these issues.

Thanks for the hyperlink. I am aware of the site and have it bookmarked in my computer at home. I am currently using a library computer in my parents' home town. I don't notice much difference in speed from my computer at home, but then I haven't tried to download a long file. I'm glad I am hooked up again so will probably be posting once or twice every few days.

While here I will see what RA Wilson books I can find, hopefully including Prometheus Rising and

Quantum Psychology

.

BTW, I enjoyed your discussion of the situations in which you have found science interesting and those you have not very much. I think that much of the supposed avoidance of science by American students may well be in the way it is presented and the stringent separation of "general education" and "professional" tracks in science curricula.

Why do you dislike the term "new age" so much?

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