Can Mars stay terraformed?

John Creighton · 2004-09-24 20:57:51

This ispired the pome or part of a hevy metal song at:
http://www.newmars.com/forums/viewtopic … ...;st=165

Big booms,
Sudden doom
Terreform or ruin
Primal power
Future majic
In our hands is it trajic
Giant fields
Mankind wields
Ripping electrons
Through the dirt
Spouting moons
With rocket fumes
We can steer to our doom
Bending curst
Unseashing fire
Molten rock
Repluntished watter
Energy spent for
Mans content
Our children
Must understand
For were power bent
And uncontent

John Creighton · 2004-09-25 12:48:23

I just can’t help but wonder how much of a role Olympus mon played in the geological history of mars. Since it was the largest volcano in the solar system it could of caused everything from the warming flooding and then freezing of mars.

karov · 2004-09-27 01:21:01

Volcanoes play major role for the volatiles` exchange between the planetary mantle and litosphere and the hydro- and atmosphere even on smaller bodies which lack of plate tectonics. As pointed by Gerald Nordley in "Surface gravity and interstellar colonization":

http://www.sfwa.org/members/Nordley/Gra … ravity.pdf

WITHOUT plate tectonics there still are mechanisms to push down the formed on surface carbonaseous rocks in the mantle for CO2 degasation and hence to work alternative kind of global thermostat... As in the case of Mons Olimpus the weight of the lava cone pushes the ex-surface base deeper and deeper and when the volcano is still active it recycles the rocks beneath it. The hight of the highest volcanoes and mountains shows the maximum depth on which isostatically the rocks are still solid. On Mars the 'hot spot' which generated its high volcano cones are long ago exhausted, but we could in principle reactivate them.

My personal oppinion is that it is not necesarry , and for atmosphere-lithospehere recycling is better to use more industrial approaches with less massive infrastructure and power requirements, and much more controlable than to input such enormous quantities of energy for volcanoes reactivation.

Volcano tectonics seems more 'natural' using in one single process the internal planetary heat and its gravity, but drilling, rock-chewing bacteria and other such plain and proven techs can do the job and to keep Mars or other astronomical body like it livable for billions of years... without volcanoes from time to time spewing more than necesarry poisonous but usefull gases on such small planet.

Palomar · 2004-09-27 07:56:04

Zurbuchen]http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/space/07/09/solar.storm.proof/]"Zurbuchen said similar solar events over the course of 3.5 billion years might have contributed to the loss of Mars' atmosphere and water, a mystery researchers have been working on for decades since pictures revealed that Mars likely had large amounts of flowing water in the distant past"
The Sun is stable, but may have had more flare activity in the past.

*Okay, I've scrolled through the past 2 pages in this thread. Am posting a new article from space.com (I don't see this particular article is yet posted):

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/m … 7.html]Air leaks from Mars via planet's tail

Hopefully contains some additional/new info for New Mars readers.

"About 1 kilogram of mass is lost to space every second, Lundin told SPACE.com. That would be equal to 2.2 pounds of material if weighed on Earth."

Every second.

--Cindy

Cobra Commander · 2004-09-27 14:02:06

"About 1 kilogram of mass is lost to space every second, Lundin told SPACE.com. That would be equal to 2.2 pounds of material if weighed on Earth."
Every second.

So all we need to do is get a starter atmosphere, then have everyone drive a big honkin' SUV, maybe get a couple million head of flatulating cattle and we're set.

BWhite · 2004-09-27 14:04:46

"About 1 kilogram of mass is lost to space every second, Lundin told SPACE.com. That would be equal to 2.2 pounds of material if weighed on Earth."
Every second.
So all we need to do is get a starter atmosphere, then have everyone drive a big honkin' SUV, maybe get a couple million head of flatulating cattle and we're set.

= IF = Mars was once warm & wet and had abundant life long ago, and = IF = the remnants of that life has been compressed under layers of rock that was later deposited on top of the remnants of past life. . .

then guess what!

Mars will have coal and oil.

Cobra Commander · 2004-09-27 14:08:54

then guess what!
Mars will have coal and oil.

And if the Administration gets behind a mission so Cheney can go drink it, that's good enough for me.

Palomar · 2004-09-27 15:02:25

= IF = Mars was once warm & wet and had abundant life long ago, and = IF = the remnants of that life has been compressed under layers of rock that was later deposited on top of the remnants of past life. . .
then guess what!
Mars will have coal and oil.

*Those are mighty big "ifs." Frankly, I doubt Mars ever sustained enough life to create much in the way of later fossil fuels. I'd be thrilled if we simply uncovered a fossil, period.

But who knows...stay tuned!

--Cindy

John Creighton · 2004-09-27 15:36:56

So all we need to do is get a starter atmosphere, then have everyone drive a big honkin' SUV, maybe get a couple million head of flatulating cattle and we're set.

I can just see the new car adds:
bigfoot and grave digger driving for a warmer mars.

karov · 2004-09-28 23:06:14

Zurbuchen]http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/space/07/09/solar.storm.proof/]"Zurbuchen said similar solar events over the course of 3.5 billion years might have contributed to the loss of Mars' atmosphere and water, a mystery researchers have been working on for decades since pictures revealed that Mars likely had large amounts of flowing water in the distant past"
The Sun is stable, but may have had more flare activity in the past.
*Okay, I've scrolled through the past 2 pages in this thread. Am posting a new article from space.com (I don't see this particular article is yet posted):
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/m … 7.html]Air leaks from Mars via planet's tail
Hopefully contains some additional/new info for New Mars readers.
"About 1 kilogram of mass is lost to space every second, Lundin told SPACE.com. That would be equal to 2.2 pounds of material if weighed on Earth."
Every second.
--Cindy

Yes, I would say "Mars losses ONLY 1 kg/s of atmosphere". I think it is absolutelly within even the nowaday scientific, later technological grasp of the mankind to introduce comperativelly simple contermeasures for such blow-off.

Of course the simplest which comes into mind is to make with equatorial conductor band an artificial mag-field around the planet, to stop the solar wind interacting directly with the atmosphere.

The mechanisms of atmosphere dissipation: Jeans exobase thermal one, solar wind pick-ups and hydrodynamical - could be weakened artificially down to degree when much smaller and closer to the Sun planets can retain for billions of years earth-like atmospheres, without roofing.

The exploration data stronger and stronger leads us to the conclusion that Mars has all the necesarry for terrafomation chemicals and after warming in it up it would hold these volatiles for billions of years without external help.

karov · 2004-09-29 03:29:27

"About 1 kilogram of mass is lost to space every second, Lundin told SPACE.com. That would be equal to 2.2 pounds of material if weighed on Earth."
Every second.
So all we need to do is get a starter atmosphere, then have everyone drive a big honkin' SUV, maybe get a couple million head of flatulating cattle and we're set.
= IF = Mars was once warm & wet and had abundant life long ago, and = IF = the remnants of that life has been compressed under layers of rock that was later deposited on top of the remnants of past life. . .
then guess what!
Mars will have coal and oil.

Tomas Gold`s "Deep hot biosphere" and recent studies on the sinthezis of methane from carbonacious rocks and water under the same presure as several dozens of km under the surface and the estimations of the composition of the planetesimals, may indeed lead to the final conclusion that the petrochemical deposits have abiotic origin, i.e. from one hand - plausible explanation of water/methane map of Mars without life, and from the other - a proof that non-photosynthesizing deep underground life has fuel on Mars, too.

atomoid · 2004-09-29 13:04:51

= IF = the remnants of that life has been compressed under layers of rock that was later deposited on top of the remnants of past life. . .
then guess what!
Mars will have coal and oil.

As KArov noted, its not that life is absolutely necessary a pre-condition for the genesis of "fossil fuels", actually it might be the other way around and life might spring from the chemical energy gradient and compounds made possible by the oil and other hydrocarbons, and theres actually quite a good argument that most of the petroleum resereves on Earth were formed inorganically via chemical reactions in the mantle... http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/di … x.htm]more about oil on Mars
So oil reserves could theoretically still exist on a sterile Mars, and I would suspect that small amounts of it would have bubbled to the surface in certain places at some time in Mars' history, and if so, would it leave some detectable sign observable from orbit?

im thinking that any oil at the surface is likely to be buried or altered in some way, but it also might eventually get eroded by blowing sand but im wondering whether or not it could in any way get altered and reduced in particle size and 'mixed in' with the dust so that very sensitive instruments might detect its trace amounts?

karov · 2004-09-30 08:35:58

Yes, Atomoid, perhubs most of the 'petrochemicals' in the terrestrial planets are abiotic and prebiotic, they were present in huge quantities in the protoplanetary nebulae. May be even in Earth there are petrochemicals ( petrol, gas, coal - metamorphed...) for THOUSANDS of years, not several decades left, which as Freeman Dyson commented would have enormous impact on global economy and ecology... May be part of the methane is reproduced by this hypothetical Deep Hot Biosphere - segments of which 'food chain' also consume the hydrocarbons..., ubiquitous in all planets according to the speculations of Tomas Gold, part of it reproduced in direct high pressure chemistry fashion by the plate tectonic cycle, bringing water and carbon in the earth`s depts...

That would mean in Mars also there are huge petrochemical deposits, and whether this is in direct or reverse loop connected with presence of life in there or not, such ready reserves of hydrocarbons would in very great degree faciliate our Mars-colonization efforts and later will provide for materials for surface biogenisation...

Earthfirst · 2004-09-30 14:19:13

Karov you sure due like to write about terraforming!
Any ways I dought that there are large sources of fossil fuels or nonlifed caused carbon on mars. In order to get large deposites of carbon near the surface you need lots of living things to biuld up. Like a coal swamp, or peat bog. That has never happened on mars. Also you need heat and pressure from plate tectonic to compress and expose to weathering.
Also oil traps like salt domes, anti sincline falts.
I think that the source of CH3 on mars is from the mantal
carbon from mars formation turned into CH3 due the heat and chemical reations, cracks in mars crust plus volcanic leakage releases a small but contunies amount.
Istopic examuation of the methane could prove that it came from life if it had an large amount of C14 in it.
It could be an easy way to determin if their is life on mars with out drilling or costly expolation. The next prob to mars should have a isotopic gas anlyizer on it.

atomoid · 2004-09-30 15:57:00

theres a pretty good and relatively recent (2000) pdf paper by John McGowan on http://www.jmcgowan.com/oilmars.pdf]oil and natural gas on Mars
he also talks about the need for a trace gas sensor
if you dont like the slide format, http://www.jmcgowan.com/mars_reprint.PDF]you might find this one a bit more readable

karov · 2004-10-07 05:27:23

So, the hydrocabons ( esp. the ligtest - methane) on both Mars and Earth ( and other teluric and non-teluric planetary mass objects ) perhubs has simultaneously biogenic and abiotic origin. Forming thus kinda cycle if really the life or life-like dissipative process/structures are present in these bodies. For sure on both planets, huge part of the CH4 is from formation times and origin, we see also that simple and ubiquitous mantal chemical process produces it too. If life is present than it should consume it as fuel, but also part of the 'deep hot biosphere' food chain also should produce it. As you pointed out the isotopical gas analyse will show if it has reath-like biotic origin and in wgat degree. Even if no life on/in Mars, than these hydrocarbon reserves from the upper several dozens of km bellow surface, are extractable and VERY usefull, even key role resurs for the future extended human missions, colonization and finally terraforming.

IT is, Ironic but -- in long run the terraformed Mars will have provided the necesarry free atmospheric oxidizer, to be burned 'focil fuels' there. I`m sure that even very develped civilization will find broad use of such chemical burnable stuff. The combustion of fuel+O2 gives enough energy for the most application imaginable, and the products are environment friendly -- i.e. easily consumable and reprocessable by a mature biosphere/technosphere ( on terraformed world the margines between the two will co-mingle).

karov · 2004-10-07 05:41:10

Water on Mars:

http://www.spacedaily.com/news/mars-wat … -html.html

included in saline hydrates - from >50 to 10% by mass!!!

That means the water on /in Mars was very effectivelly sequestered and trapped by simple geochemical processes, contra the fears that the planet due to its low surface gravity was totally dried up during the eons after formation. The last shows that even smaller planets can hold water out of the photodissociation zones and retaion indeffinitelly long an earth-like atmosphere , with only several cheap and simple methods apllied.

Such huge content of water again leads to the eventual conclusion that indeed ala-Birch "How to Terraform mars quickly" schemes ( http://www.paulbirch.net]www.paulbirch.net) can be used. The scenario providing Mars with thick atmosphere via regoloth evaporation, for not longer than several decades, which on its turn for 25-30 years to be earth-like modified in chemical content, by classical augmented and helped photosynthesis, seems more feasible. Concentated sunligt by mirror-lense, and heating the upper several dozens of metters to >1000 degrees will release not only CO2, but will put the basis on for three-phased hydrological cycle...

Make sure that no local life is present. Bake Mars with several times increased solar input to sqeeze the frozen or/and salts-bounded water. Result thickened air , liquid water, less radiation, environment where atmospheric-processing-in-brethable-mixture producent life can be implanted... Even with no brethable atmosphere, but with thick enough such, also providing conditions liquid water to exist on surface -- the planet could begin to house millions, which to wait to put asside the masks one day...

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