America's Space Prize! $50mil... - Funded by Bigelow.

Rxke · 2004-09-27 05:19:27

http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewnews.h … 9]Spaceref (from Aviation Week)

"The objective is to spur development of a low-cost commercial manned orbital vehicle capable of launching 5-7 astronauts at a time to Bigelow inflatable modules by the end of the decade."

Bigelow saying in the article he's years ahead of his original shedule of putting up the modules in orbit. Big, interesting article...

Rxke · 2004-09-27 05:29:52

Hmmm... For some reason, spaceref seems down, http://www.spaceflightnow.com/news/n040 … ghtnow.com has the story too...

clark · 2004-09-27 11:26:39

It's an excellent PR move if you ask me, not that anyone did, nor does anyone care, but there it is.

Now when Congress (or the State Department) tries to get in his way with any foreign launch, he can scream bloody murder that bueracracy is standing in the way of the private space launch sector.

The discerning eye will notice that he is actively engaged in developing a wide spectrum of small companies to build and launch the various pieces of his little pet project. It goes without saying that this is to undermine the all encompasing mega-aerospace corporations that cause the price of services within aerosapce to remain stagnant and uncompetitive. He is in essence doing the impossible, to make it all possible.

With the new prize contest, he is also breathing life into the previous X-prize contendors hopes and dreams as they reappraise their designs and approach it with an orbital goal instead of sub-orbital.

Origins blue,
where are you...

Rxke · 2004-09-27 11:33:46

Gotta wonder, though...

Contestants do NOT have to build an orbital launcher, 'only' a crew-capsule...

...but how do you test your stuff if you don't have a cheap launcher handy? At $20mil for todays 'cheap' launches, you can do 2.5 tests before you blow the prizemoney...

Licence/copy the Kliperdesign and let the Russians test it for a small fee?

clark · 2004-09-27 11:43:25

He is also adding in first rights to a commercial contract to service his future space hotels. That's how you get money from the bank...

BWhite · 2004-09-27 11:47:39

Licence/copy the Kliperdesign and let the Russians test it for a small fee?

I asked Rand Simberg the same question. Doing some chain pulling?

clark is correct, as usual. The real money will be frequent trips to Bigelow's hotels.

Kliper is an obvious platform to enter this contest. $50 million to offset development costs and then flights to ISS and Bigelow's hotels for the real profit.

Build a vessel with CEV capabilities for a fraction of the cost and years earlier, also.

= = =

clark writes:

Now when Congress (or the State Department) tries to get in his way with any foreign launch, he can scream bloody murder that bueracracy is standing in the way of the private space launch sector.

Look at the name, America's Prize, combined with the Aviation Weekly story that non-US boosters are likely to be eligible.

Calling it America's Prise is the obvious move if you intend to go international. :;):

Rxke · 2004-09-27 11:54:00

He does not rule out Russian, Chinese, European.... stuff docking with his habs, but...

It's (tentatively) called AMERICA's Space Prize, so there might be some limits on how far one can go in copycatting non-American stuff.

Q: what is 'chain pulling?' Makes me think about a viscious dog...

(EDIT: didn't see the second part of your post, Bill, sorry for the redundancy)

clark · 2004-09-27 11:56:06

Calling it America's Prize ensures that we American's take it very seriously and do everything we can to prevent some other non-American from rocketing off with our name sake.

As they say, it's ours to lose.

Rxke · 2004-09-27 12:00:43

Calling it America's Prize ensures that we American's take it very seriously and do everything we can to prevent some other non-American from rocketing off with our name sake.
As they say, it's ours to lose.

I have a weeeeird imagination, but all of a sudden I have visions of Osama B enlisting lots of wacky scientists in the hope to humiliate the USA by winning Bigelow's prize...

errr... Ok, nevermind....

BWhite · 2004-09-27 12:06:05

Calling it America's Prize ensures that we American's take it very seriously and do everything we can to prevent some other non-American from rocketing off with our name sake.
As they say, it's ours to lose.
I have a weeeeird imagination, but all of a sudden I have visions of Osama B enlisting lots of wacky scientists in the hope to humiliate the USA by winning Bigelow's prize...
errr... Ok, nevermind....

We think more alike that you might think. . .

Chain pulling? Rand is fun to annoy. :;):

= = =

The prize must be won by 2010 and who or what (besides Kliper?) might possibly make that schedule? That is 4 years before CEV is to make its first crewed flight.

And Falcon V can only carry 2 or 3 people not 6.

The article also says Bigelow needs a Proton class booster to get the full sized space hotel to LEO.

Rxke · 2004-09-27 12:06:43

Still... I'm mighty impressd what he has done so far, with little publicity (is this a recurring theme? Scaled, Bigelow, Blue Origin...)

Seems like the design is very far already, and some neat stuff like

"•Air revitalization: By year's end Bigelow will take delivery of a carbon-dioxide removal system from EADS Astrium that uses chemically coated beads, called solid amine, instead of the molecular sieve technology used on the ISS. The advantage of this system over the ISS is that it uses steam to revitalize the reactants, giving three-fold benefits. While the solid amine absorbs the carbon dioxide the process will also generate water from which oxygen can be extracted."

He's showing a lot of people that, yes, it does *NOT* take 50 billions to build a usable spacestation...If he lets the Chinese aboard, it will be even more 'I' than the current ISS...

clark · 2004-09-27 12:19:36

The prize must be won by 2010 and who or what (besides Kliper?) might possibly make that schedule? That is 4 years before CEV is to make its first crewed flight.
And Falcon V can only carry 2 or 3 people not 6

"How now said the brown cow to the white moon?!"

On the scrawled penciled peice of envelope tattered on the side comes a 10-12 tone launch of a 45% sized Nautilis on a Falcon 5. Somewhere in the electronic ether are schematics of a russian dream no bigger than 12 tons.

I say the bird will fly with 5-6 people. It's just weight. Musk has to worry about building the dern thing.

Rxke · 2004-09-27 12:33:43

Chain pulling? Rand is fun to annoy. :;):

Totally offtopic, but Rand was the reason I started visiting this board, heehee. By reading his opinion about Zubrins appearance before the committee of Idontrememberwhat. I politely disagreed with him, and he deleted my reaction, much fun followed (kinda... I was quite upset at that happening, actually, even when he later put it up again, heehee..)

Ontopic: could a "all-titanium" elongated Gemini2 fit the bill?

BWhite · 2004-09-27 12:35:54

The prize must be won by 2010 and who or what (besides Kliper?) might possibly make that schedule? That is 4 years before CEV is to make its first crewed flight.
And Falcon V can only carry 2 or 3 people not 6
"How now said the brown cow to the white moon?!"
On the scrawled penciled peice of envelope tattered on the side comes a 10-12 tone launch of a 45% sized Nautilis on a Falcon 5. Somewhere in the electronic ether are schematics of a russian dream no bigger than 12 tons.
I say the bird will fly with 5-6 people. It's just weight. Musk has to worry about building the dern thing.

Falcon V is nowhere close to 14.5 tons payload to LEO, which is the Kliper mass, without escape tower.

Okay, put a Falcon V on top of an R-7 booster and maybe there you go.

http://www.russianspaceweb.com/kliper.html]Kliper link

= = =

Actually, an off the shelf R-7 plus some RL10s, some RL-60s or some RD-0146s should work just fine. Since Soyuz costs less than $30/$40 million, an R-7 plus an upper stage made from multiple RL-10s shouldn't cost that much more per launch, excluding R&D.

clark · 2004-09-27 12:42:29

Bleh!

Math was never my strong suit. And apparently facts... :laugh:

clark · 2004-09-27 12:59:21

http://www.astronautix.com/craft/bigemini.htm

Spacecraft Module: Big Gemini RV. Other Designations: Reentry Vehicle. Purpose: Crew and cargo return.
Crew Size: 9. Length: 5.18 m. Basic Diameter: 4.27 m. Maximum Diameter: 4.27 m. Habitable Volume: 18.70 m3. Mass: 5,227 kg. L/D Hypersonic: .3.

FalconV specs: (from SpaceX.com)
Falcon V*
200 km, 28 deg: 4,200 kg
400 km, 51 deg (Space Station) 3,570 kg
700 km, sun-synchronous 3,000 kg
GTO, 9 deg - 1,250 kg
Escape velocity (no kick stage) - 840 kg

* Numbers down rated prior to completion of testing. Final performance numbers expected to be higher.

Now, there is a bit of disconnect of about a 1,000 some odd kg- however, that was a 9 person design. This is the Gemini B (Big Gemini) that was overlooked because of Apollo. Nothing wrong with the science and the hardware is solid. The Gemini is considered to be the front runner for the entire CEV concept.

Musk has also stated his intention to build bigger rockets if the market is there. It looks to me like the market is fast approaching.

SpaceNut · 2004-09-27 13:15:43

Full speed ahead with developement and Nasa will buy because it is cheaper than all others that have said they could do it as well.

Rxke · 2004-09-27 13:34:55

um... Clark? Didn't you forget something?

Astronautix says:

"Crew Size: 9. Length: 11.50 m. Maximum Diameter: 4.27 m. Habitable Volume: 18.70 m3. Mass: *15,590 kg.* Payload: 2,500 kg. Associated Launch Vehicle: Titan 3M, Saturn INT-20."

Because made out of 3 modules:

"Modules - Big Gemini
Spacecraft Module: Big Gemini RV. Other Designations: Reentry Vehicle. Purpose: Crew and cargo return.

Crew Size: 9. Length: 5.18 m. Basic Diameter: 4.27 m. Maximum Diameter: 4.27 m. Habitable Volume: 18.70 m3. Mass: 5,227 kg. L/D Hypersonic: .3.

Spacecraft Module: Big Gemini AM. Other Designations: Adapter Module. Purpose: Earth orbit maneuver and retrofire.

Length: 1.60 m. Basic Diameter: 4.27 m. Maximum Diameter: 6.61 m. Mass: 4,450 kg. RCS Coarse No x Thrust: 16 x 45 kgf. RCS Propellants: N2O4/MMH. RCS Isp: 273 sec. Main Engine Propellants: N2O4/UDMH. Spacecraft delta v: 350 m/s. Electrical System: Fuel Cells.

Spacecraft Module: Big Gemini CM. Other Designations: Cargo Module. Purpose: Space station resupply.

Length: 3.40 m. Basic Diameter: 4.27 m. Maximum Diameter: 6.61 m. Mass: 5,910 kg. Payload: 2,500 kg."

so even w/o the cargo module, it's around 10.000kg...

clark · 2004-09-27 13:39:50

Huh? The way I read it, it consisted of three seperate module types. Does it need the AM module?

Rxke · 2004-09-27 13:50:31

yes... To do in-orbit manoeuvring for docking and later do a re-entry burn to land...

(Edit)

The other part is 'only' a pressurized container, so to say... to keep 'em humans alive...

Soyuz · 2004-09-28 04:29:59

so even w/o the cargo module, it's around 10.000kg...

In an article about SpaceX they said they had plans to build a Falcon V with an LOX/LH second stage with an RL-10 rocket engine. This version would be capable of delivering 10 000 kg into LEO. So this solves your problem, and this Falcon VX only costs 20 million.

Rxke · 2004-10-03 09:19:11

http://www.lasvegasmercury.com/2004/MER … ]Knappster

reports Bigelow 'not ready' to reveal plan of prize during X-Prize and NASA 'getting cold feet' about the initial half-promise to give $25mil for the prize.

Bigelow remains optimistic he'll convince NASA eventually...

Commodore · 2004-10-03 15:35:24

Full speed ahead with developement and Nasa will buy because it is cheaper than all others that have said they could do it as well.

I bet thats how it will go. NASA could even throw in an extra billion or so and make it really profitable.

I'll bet they end up buying Bigelow inflatables as a reusable transit craft, or "service module" as well. I got to admit that the idea of an inflatable brings to mind the thought of the thing poping like a ballon, but everything I've read seems to indicate there stronger than anything we got up there now.

The only problem I can forsee with the inflatables is getting larger stuff in it. There doesn't seem to be a good way put a hatch on it.

Rxke · 2004-10-03 15:42:13

put the hatch at the end... The current ISS modules also have hatches which have seriously smaller diameters than the modules themselves, so no problem, au contraire: it should in theory be possible to come up with even bigger hatches than current ones...

Rxke · 2004-10-03 15:46:03

And the popping balloon is impossible, balloons pop because they're made out of stretchable stuff.

Punctures will in the worst case cause a bigger tear because of the airflow pushing at the edges of the hole, but then you have the rip-stop fabric: in the fabric are strings weaved that are seriously stronger than the overall fabric, so the rip doesn't spread beond those 'safety'fibers.

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#1 2004-09-27 05:19:27

Re: America's Space Prize! $50mil... - Funded by Bigelow.

#2 2004-09-27 05:29:52

Re: America's Space Prize! $50mil... - Funded by Bigelow.

#3 2004-09-27 11:26:39

Re: America's Space Prize! $50mil... - Funded by Bigelow.

#4 2004-09-27 11:33:46

Re: America's Space Prize! $50mil... - Funded by Bigelow.

#5 2004-09-27 11:43:25

Re: America's Space Prize! $50mil... - Funded by Bigelow.

#6 2004-09-27 11:47:39

Re: America's Space Prize! $50mil... - Funded by Bigelow.

#7 2004-09-27 11:54:00

Re: America's Space Prize! $50mil... - Funded by Bigelow.

#8 2004-09-27 11:56:06

Re: America's Space Prize! $50mil... - Funded by Bigelow.

#9 2004-09-27 12:00:43

Re: America's Space Prize! $50mil... - Funded by Bigelow.

#10 2004-09-27 12:06:05

Re: America's Space Prize! $50mil... - Funded by Bigelow.

#11 2004-09-27 12:06:43

Re: America's Space Prize! $50mil... - Funded by Bigelow.

#12 2004-09-27 12:19:36

Re: America's Space Prize! $50mil... - Funded by Bigelow.

#13 2004-09-27 12:33:43

Re: America's Space Prize! $50mil... - Funded by Bigelow.

#14 2004-09-27 12:35:54

Re: America's Space Prize! $50mil... - Funded by Bigelow.

#15 2004-09-27 12:42:29

Re: America's Space Prize! $50mil... - Funded by Bigelow.

#16 2004-09-27 12:59:21

Re: America's Space Prize! $50mil... - Funded by Bigelow.

#17 2004-09-27 13:15:43

Re: America's Space Prize! $50mil... - Funded by Bigelow.

#18 2004-09-27 13:34:55

Re: America's Space Prize! $50mil... - Funded by Bigelow.

#19 2004-09-27 13:39:50

Re: America's Space Prize! $50mil... - Funded by Bigelow.

#20 2004-09-27 13:50:31

Re: America's Space Prize! $50mil... - Funded by Bigelow.

#21 2004-09-28 04:29:59

Re: America's Space Prize! $50mil... - Funded by Bigelow.

#22 2004-10-03 09:19:11

Re: America's Space Prize! $50mil... - Funded by Bigelow.

#23 2004-10-03 15:35:24

Re: America's Space Prize! $50mil... - Funded by Bigelow.

#24 2004-10-03 15:42:13

Re: America's Space Prize! $50mil... - Funded by Bigelow.

#25 2004-10-03 15:46:03

Re: America's Space Prize! $50mil... - Funded by Bigelow.

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