Using Europa To Terraform Mars - wacky science or real possibility?

deagleninja · 2004-09-26 22:59:02

With a few billion dollars of automation I can see rapidly terraforming Mars at least for plant life in decades not centuries and here's why:

1)Europa has tons of ice (think miles of it)
2)Europa has no atmosphere to interfere with ice delivery.
3)At 20 pounds of ice per 5 minutes you send nearly 3 tons of ice to Mars everyday.
4)Ice 'burning up' in the martian atmosphere will remove a lot of that dust in the air which should increase the greenhouse effect dramatically.
5)Then you seed the ocean of Europa with fish and you can feed the whole solar system by launching mature fish in blocks of ice.
6)No one wants fish traveling at .1c? No problem, they still make good organic compost on Mars.

comstar03 · 2004-09-27 00:08:09

interesting, thought, but would require massive infrastructure, again we need to build for the mars journeys, but once the vessels are built for the mars voyages they could then be used for the europa journeys and land a supply outpost on that moon and start development of supplies for mars, all other human outposts

chat · 2004-09-27 05:17:33

deagleninja,

Brilliant idea.
This is the best idea I've seen for teraforming mars in ages.

Everything other than the frozen fish popsicle sound great

wgc · 2004-09-27 05:24:58

deagleninja,
Brilliant idea.
This is the best idea I've seen for teraforming mars in ages.
Everything other than the frozen fish popsicle sound great

This is a bad idea, one of the worst I've heard. Europa is one of the places in the solar system which MIGHT harbor life.

The ecological damage caused by such a project would be unacceptable . I think any serious discussion of this would raise red flags in the science community. Fortunately we are no near having the technology to do this.

comstar03 · 2004-09-27 05:45:55

wgc,

I agree, we don't know, and until we do we can't use other potential life giving resources out of another ecosystem. I think before we consider terraforming any planet or body, we need to set directives / rules / regulations that doesn't harm or damage any other lifeform.

SpaceNut · 2004-09-27 06:12:34

Also since you must go though the asteriod belt maybe sending a few on there way to be capture by mars or to be mined would benifit mars as well in the process of teraforming mars.

Palomar · 2004-09-27 07:34:01

deagleninja,
Brilliant idea.
This is the best idea I've seen for teraforming mars in ages.
Everything other than the frozen fish popsicle sound great
This is a bad idea, one of the worst I've heard. Europa is one of the places in the solar system which MIGHT harbor life.

*Have we forgotten the Jupiter's radiation belts factor? ???

And yes -- Europa IS one of the very few places in the Solar System thought to habor life. Leave it alone.

And if you don't care about the above two reasons...it's also that much further from Earth (cost, practicality, etc.).

Thanks a lot, KSR.

--Cindy

::edit:: http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/s … l]...heavy doses of lethal radiation... "On Jupiter, charged particles in the planet's magnetosphere (similar to Earth's, but much stronger) bombard Europa."

deagleninja · 2004-09-27 09:19:01

Ok so there are arguments, I expected that and I have more than frozen fish to rebut them

Europa may have life yes. I was only kidding about the fish guys. There likely isn't enough energy available in the ocean of Europa to support such large animals without sunlight.

I don't see how radiation is a factor, but perhaps I am misunderstanding. There would be no people involved in this project, only automation. So we don't need to worry about radiation frying any 'iceloaders'. The amount of radiation is also very manageable for machines since Galileo had no problem operating for years much closer to Jupiter.

Europa is covered with a very thick crust of ice. We could use this technique for a century and not even come close to breaching the barrier between ice and water.

I must admit, I don't understand the 'hands off' sentiment when dealing with bodies like Mars or Europa that might possibly harbor life. The latest data from Mars Express suggests that life is limited to maybe three regions on Mars. In other words, it is dying off if it is there. There is no chance for life on the surface of Europa and it is likely that its oceans are freezing out. To do nothing seems to mean certain death for these possible natives of these two respective worlds.

Also, thinning the ice by this technique would only allow more energy into Europa's ocean via solar energy. Granted, unless we are only talking about a meter of ice, it isn't much energy, but Im sure every bit counts.

SpaceNut · 2004-09-27 10:46:48

Life is always one of those early trump cards that will always be played within the frame work of exploration to denigh human interaction no matter what form the essence of life shall take.

As to getting the materials needed to fatten up the mars atmosphere or to make it more econmical to support colonize on mars. Mining operations of the moon, by heating upper atmosphers and syphoning of any planet atmosphere can also gain the needed chemicals.

Yes distance is a factor but so is the amount to be returned by the ton or other wise, for the amount of cash out lay to make it practical.

Palomar · 2004-09-27 10:55:11

Life is always one of those early trump cards that will always be played within the frame work of exploration to denigh human interaction no matter what form the essence of life shall take.

*I think that's a very unfair, generalized statement. Also, my comments referred specifically and only to *Europa*

Once again: Europa is one of the few places in the Solar System thought to have life. Does the word "rare" ring any bells?

I must admit, I don't understand the 'hands off' sentiment

I must admit I don't understand the careless, cavalier attitude which doesn't care about long-range effects and the possibility of killing off the only other life forms in the Solar System. The Old Wild West "let's go slaughter another herd of buffalo, who cares" attitude is what must die.

Ignorance isn't bliss when it comes to space exploration. And this isn't a story in a KSR novel.

--Cindy

SpaceNut · 2004-09-27 11:08:29

It is just usually that the argument is used to send probes to explore only and to leave man out of the exploration equation all together.
I do agree that we should always tread lightly until we do know what it is to allow safe man interaction with the environment and a precaution to protect man as well.

Palomar · 2004-09-27 11:25:20

SpaceNut: It is just usually that the argument is used to send probes to explore only and to leave man out of the exploration equation all together.

*Well I know you're still relatively new here, so let me assure you that is not my point of view.

I do agree that we should always tread lightly until we do know what it is to allow safe man interaction with the environment and a precaution to protect man as well.

*I couldn't agree MORE.

My decades-long interest in astronomy and being an amateur astronomer has -- besides the enjoyment of the science itself, and the wonderment and curiosity which goes hand-in-hand with it all -- fostered a sense of RESPECT for other celestial bodies and for "the bigger picture."

It doesn't have to be "don't touch"; what it DOES have to be, IMO, is "touch...CAREFULLY." I am very mindful of consequences and etc. Based on humankind's history, though, it doesn't seem most people are (and "past behavior is indicative of future behavior").

I don't know that anyone here IS this way, but I've seen enough of the "I've read KSR, let's go play marbles with the Solar System!!" mentality in various forms and in various *forums* that it makes me very uncomfortable. That's why I said "ignorance isn't bliss" when it comes to space exploration.

If you can't respect it, leave it alone.

--Cindy

deagleninja · 2004-09-27 11:38:24

If there is life on Mars or Europa is it primitive and dying off. Neither of these worlds will ever give rise to intelligence. As the only intelligent species in the solar system we have the right and I dare say the duty to use these worlds as we see fit.

There is nothing 'magically' dangerous about a human presence on either world. If there are any microbes on these worlds they are only threatened by us if we devote an incredible amout of resources to eradicating them. Assuming Mars does have life, it has survived conditions more hostile than any found on Earth. Us being there, or even standing on top of them with a flag of Earth and screaming 'Death to life!' won't make a difference to them.

Life is most likely common throughout the universe. At its simplest form, which is all Mars or Europa offer, it is little more than moving dirt.

Cobra Commander · 2004-09-27 11:56:16

Life is most likely common throughout the universe. At its simplest form, which is all Mars or Europa offer, it is little more than moving dirt.

May be common. We just don't know. Even if we find life on Mars, Europa, in the clouds of Venus, Titan and half a dozen other places we still won't know whether life is common in the universe.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for colonization of as much celestial real estate as we can get and I firmly believe that human life takes precedence over microbes in all cases, yet we shouldn't trample over the cosmos without reason. We should preserve some of what we find, at least until we know with certainty that simple life truly is as common as dirt. We have much to learn and there is plenty of room.

clark · 2004-09-27 12:12:19

Some take the long view, others the longer one. :laugh:

A few hundred or thousand years from now, our fingerprints will be on everything that floats and flies between the endless absent ether.

A few million or billion years from now, not a single trace of our exsistence will be observed.

How do we reconcile these two views? Well, you see, both lead us to believe that change is inevitable, that all that is will one day be undone, one way or another. Be it by our hand, or by the constancy of oblivion.

We undo a moon, perhaps we hasten the end sooner. We remake a world, perhaps we prolong against the enivitable. Where is my glass, and how much water does it have now?

As an example, the rings of Saturn did not once exsist, but now they do, and one day they will not. Their exsistence and their inevitiability is not in doubt- yet when we mingle our exsistence with their own, we define ourselves. :;):

Rxke · 2004-09-27 13:18:40

If there's life on Europa it might be thriving, we just don't know. There could be a very complex biological environment underneath the ice... There's a lot of energy there that life could use (gravitational compression-stretching, leading to heat...)

Mars, OTOH... Hybernating, at best....

Anyway I think shipping ice from Europa is not the way to go if one would like to import ice to Mars, there are more energy-efficient ways...

BTW, Cindy... You *really* should read KSR... (Yes, we *will* keep nagging, heehee...)

He has both good pro and contra arguments. True, he describes a future with big terraforming operations, but it is not a given, many people are opposed. Big business rules, though... And the 'reds' are all but powerless. But not completely. There are a lot of alternatives passing the revue, some are even implemented etc...

Palomar · 2004-09-27 17:59:01

KSR...
He has both good pro and contra arguments. True, he describes a future with big terraforming operations, but it is not a given, many people are opposed.

*Yes, I know.

However, (and this is not directed at deagleninja; I'm not overly familiar with his views on the matter) there are a lot of people -- in various forums -- who do go off on all sorts of wild-eyed ideas about obliterating Jupiter's clouds, smacking planets together, shuffling planets around into different orbits, on and on...and they attribute it back to KSR. True, it's not necessarily *his* fault (like Clive Barker said about his "Hellraiser" storyline getting away from him thanks to other writers -- you put the idea out there and it can be grabbed and run with by other people), but the fact is people ARE attributing kooky and zany ideas to him or at least referring them back to him as if he is the progenitor of it all. Considering the fingers consistently point back at him, well... ::shrugs:: Maybe in my reading I can hope to discern just how a lot of folks -may- have misconstrued his writings and gone off on their own private little tangents.

Everyone's entitled to their opinions of course. And I've just stated a few of my own.

As a "disclaimer" of sorts, I'll add that I don't believe all terraforming ideas and plans are goofy or ill-advised...but a lot of them are. A good grounding in basic astronomy (at least) would provide a few clues.

--Cindy

The Fed Man · 2004-09-27 18:59:45

I always thought that nature lived by the law of survival of the fittest. Species used to die out under stronger species all the time but now when humans get close to doing this they are fought against by enviromentalists. I don't get it. Humans are the fittest and we have the right to do whatever we please as long as it doesn't kill ourselves. I also think that spreading to other worlds is the exact opposite of killing ourselves off because it gives the human race much more chance of surviving a catastrophe.

If there is life on Mars or Europa is it primitive and dying off. Neither of these worlds will ever give rise to intelligence. As the only intelligent species in the solar system we have the right and I dare say the duty to use these worlds as we see fit.

I agree.

Palomar · 2004-09-27 20:23:24

*Would like to make some comments; however, I have the impression at least one person here isn't paying adequate attention to WHAT precisely others are saying here and WHY they are saying it. Here goes:

"I always thought that nature lived by the law of survival of the fittest."

*You mean the theory of evolution? Where does chance and luck fit in? How do you know there isn't a God who created all this with the expectation that we should be beneficent, responsible stewards and care for things? (I'm agnostic, by the way).

"Species used to die out under stronger species all the time..."

*Was that due to chance and luck to a certain extent? Or was it all deliberate, volitional and willed -- based on preplanning and deliberate choices? You as a man are probably physically stronger than I. Does that give you "the right" to punch or strike me at whim? Does a boulder decide consciously and willfully to roll down a steep hillside, smash into and kill a couple of deer in a grazing herd in order to help thin the deer population...or is random chance involved? Our movements into space will be choices based on consciousness and willful volition. Isn't that quite a difference?

"but now when humans get close to doing this they are fought against by enviromentalists..."

*Are you implying there are "environmentalists" here? If so, it seems you either misread or didn't bother reading closely enough -- which is a disservice to the rest of us.

"Humans are the fittest and..."

*...we have a tendency to act in very self-destructive ways. We might not always be "the fittest," if certain self-destructive behaviors continue to escalate (a certain "socially contracted" virus which continues to skyrocket around the globe comes to mind). Etc., etc.

"and we have the right to do whatever we please as long as it doesn't kill ourselves."

*Can every consequence be foreseen? We only have one Solar System; the next nearest star is currently unreachable and doesn't have a planetary system comparable to ours. Based on that, doesn't it make better sense to try and ensure we don't muck things up ala "fools rush in" and ultimately screw ourselves over anyway?

"I also think that spreading to other worlds is the exact opposite of killing ourselves off because it gives the human race much more chance of surviving a catastrophe."

*Who here said otherwise? No one. Also, no one here suggested spreading to other worlds is akin to killing ourselves.

:Someone else wrote:

"If there is life on Mars or Europa is it primitive and dying off."

*Primitive perhaps. But on what do you base your claim that it is "dying off"? How do you know; are you an astrobiologist?

"As the only intelligent species in the solar system..."

*And let's be sure we act intelligently towards the remainder of the Solar System. And with a bit of respect.

"...we have the right and I dare say the duty to use these worlds as we see fit."

*Rights and duties based on what? A childish urge? A genuine desire for the betterment of mankind? "Just because we can (which mentality usually leads to all sorts of abuses)?" What?

Oh -- and WHO decides? Hmmmm?

--Cindy

The Fed Man · 2004-09-27 22:13:01

I can easily see that you are against desatroying a primitive species on another planet. Why? I just don't why that life would mean so much to you.

Palomar · 2004-09-28 04:22:54

I can easily see that you are against desatroying a primitive species on another planet. Why? I just don't why that life would mean so much to you.

*And I can easily see that you make pat judgments about people and their opinions, refuse to attempt to try and answer valid questions (surely "the fittest" could handle it) and you also obviously don't pay others the courtesy of attempting to discern what they are saying and why.

You came into this thread, found the one person you agree whole-heartedly with, then apparently made a bunch of *assumptions* about what else has been said here and dismiss the rest of it out of hand entirely. Is that behavior worthy of "the fittest"? I don't think so.

The answer to your question to me is already contained in previous posts in this thread, which you would know if you'd bothered to read them in any detail.

You've demonstrated to me that you're disinclined (or just plain too intellectually lazy) to pay adequate attention to others' points of view, preferring instead to alternately make assumptions or outright ignore, thereby doing the entire conversation a disservice.

I have nothing further to say to your unthinking. Apparently attempting to converse with you is a waste of time.

--Cindy

clark · 2004-09-28 05:53:52

if you are unthinking, does that mean you are not? :laugh:

Anyway, what does finding primitive life, of any derivation, really and truly mean? Say we find said life on distant planet, then what? Study it? After that, when we have observed it, recorded it, put it in a jar on a shelf, learned whatever it is you may learn from it, what then?

Do we let the merry little microbes go blissfully reproducing till the vagaries of random chance dictate that they should all die off? Should we strive to prevent their eventual destruction for as long as we shall live, attentive stweards to a planetary zoo?

I agree that finding life on another planet is a noteworthy discovery. But it is the discovery itself that interests me, not the actual product that achieves it.

There are a lot of 'zanny' ideas about moving moons and remaking planets. Things that stretch the imagination, but for all intents and purposes, it is well beyond anything we might hope to do for another thousand years. So, say after a thousand years, we have found life on Europa, studied it for several centuries, and can learn nothing new, would it be okay then to use it in a way more beneficial to some higher forms of life?

There used to be a mountain there,
a thousand years ago,
Now there is a little hill,
where Jack and Jill did go!

SpaceNut · 2004-09-29 13:04:29

Destroying microbe life if found may also destroy the chance to answer the question of how life begins as well no matter where it is found and also does it form in the same amino acid format.

Palomar · 2004-09-29 13:22:50

Destroying microbe life if found may also destroy the chance to answer the question of how life begins as well no matter where it is found and also does it form in the same amino acid format.

*Good point. The bigger picture...

To readers/contributors in this thread (with one exception; he's just plain unfair IMO) I'm sorry if I sounded too harsh in two of my replies. Europa is of special interest to me and always has been, so I'm a bit more "hands off" protective with regard to it. We have no proof yet that there is life there. However, others seem to assert any life there IS primitive. You don't know that. No one does at this time.

I'm not a big fan of terraforming, but I *do* consider it as a possibility in Mars' future. Not trying to go off-topic, but I am also *pro*-nuclear (probes, spaceships, possibly reactors on Mars) so any accusation that I'm "a tree hugging environmentalist" is absurd.

Again, I'd prefer our movements into the Solar System be based on reason and a bit of care and respect for it. If that's asking too much or is outrageous to some people -- "oh well."

Not sure I'll continue in this thread.

--Cindy

SpaceNut · 2004-09-29 13:38:06

Granted a little dated but may be also true for mars since methane is present.
Electric shock creates organic molecule? Is it an acidy moon, until probes are sent to land on the ice or to scoop though the atmosphere we will be unable to answer those questions.

Quote from cnn article:
Immense red freckles on Jupiter's moon Europa could serve as geologic elevators, possibly transporting microbial life from a subterranean ocean to the icy surface, according to space scientists.

Might this also explain the red spot on jupiter itself?

Edit:
I am still poking on the search for water on other moons and the possibility of life. Have found that jupiter has three moons that fit that bill; Europa, Ganymede, and Callisto. Each seem to show very simular life search results.

'Shocking' discovery boosts chance of life on Europa
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99993421

Life could be tough on acid Europa
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99994664

Jupiter moon like giant 'lava lamp'
http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/space/11/01/europa.spots/

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Re: Using Europa To Terraform Mars - wacky science or real possibility?

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Re: Using Europa To Terraform Mars - wacky science or real possibility?

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