What would you consider another Vietnam

John Creighton · 2004-09-22 16:31:12

Informantion for information sake is the only reason to live for!

In that case memorize the phone book and you will be a very happy person

Gennaro · 2004-09-23 02:16:41

not to beat a dead horse, but i just noticed this http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/200 … x.html]The MGS MOC Search for Beagle 2

Note that this picture is NOT the "Beagle impact crater":

then why did i link it? i dont know, it had me fooled until i read the story!

Algol · 2004-09-23 02:53:33

One of the major effects of the vietnam war was the depletion of Americas professional military.

After two tours in vietnam and facing a third, many professional soldiers chose to quit the military altogether rather than risk going back. This lead to a massive shortage of well trained soldiers to lead the fighting on the ground - and was one of the contributing factors to the failiure of the war as a whole. An ever increasing proportion of the fighting men were drafted 'kids' all needing new training, each year those who survived went home (taking their experience and gained abilities with them) and a fresh batch of inexperienced 'drafties' arrived - which is why vietnam is compared to 10 one year wars than 1 ten year war.

America has done alot to rebuild the military since vietnam and is rightly proud with what it has accomplished. However, after a 1 year tour in afghanistan, and their years tour in iraq coming to an end many professional soldiers are once again thinking of leaving the military rather than risk another year. The army is increasingly having to rely on reservists to ease the pressure on the profesionals and patriotic fervour is likely to keep the supply going for a while; but soon we may soon see increasing numbers of professional soldiers choosing their families over their military career...

Gennaro · 2004-09-23 03:46:00

The gravest consequences of the Vietnam War, as I see it, was America's loss of faith in itself, when the world needed a positive image of America to rely on.
The following breakthrough and supremacy of a leftist, Universalist attitude among academia, media and elite in regard to politics, values and world affairs, has swept away our immunal resistance to a host of malign, culturally disintegrating phenomena.

C M Edwards · 2004-09-23 12:53:58

What are the requirements for a war to be considered another Vietnam in terms of:
Other (Please Specify)

Really popular protest songs.

Which reminds me, I recently felt the need to go out, find a copy of "Peace Train" by Cat Stevens and play it - loud and often.

Cobra Commander · 2004-09-23 12:59:55

Which reminds me, I recently felt the need to go out, find a copy of "Peace Train" by Cat Stevens and play it - loud and often.

:laugh: I'm just finding everything funny today.

http://www2.cnn.com/2004/US/09/21/plane … verted.ap/

John Creighton · 2004-09-26 21:01:23

Quote (John Creighton @ Sep. 20 2004, 14:26)
What are the requirements for a war to be considered another Vietnam in terms of:
Other (Please Specify)
Really popular protest songs.
Which reminds me, I recently felt the need to go out, find a copy of Peace]http://www.allspirit.co.uk/peacetrain.html]"Peace Train" by Cat Stevens and play it - loud and often.

Other songs, http://www.lyricstime.com/lyrics/66857.html]In A world called catastrophe by Mathew Good band, http://www.dapslyrics.com/display.php?sid=7217]American Idiot by Green day. Neither are very good. Although not about any particular war I like http://www.loglar.com/song.php?id=6254]disposable hero by Matellica.

.....
Soldier boy, made of clay
Now an empty shell
Twenty one, only son
But he served us well
Bred to kill, not to care
Do just as we say
Finished here, greetings death
He's yours to take away
Back to the front
You will do what I say, when I say
Back to the front
You will die when I say, you must die
Back to the front
You coward
You servant
You blindman
Why, am I dying?
Kill, have no fear
Lie, live off lying
Hell, hell is here
Why, am I dying?
Kill, have no fear
Lie, live off lying
Hell, hell is here
I was born for dying
.....

:band:

John Creighton · 2004-09-26 21:08:16

.....and then as the oposite of a protest song there is: http://www.lyricsdownload.com/outkast-b … html]Bombs Over Bagdad by outcast.

Palomar · 2004-09-26 22:09:13

*Sometimes I wish entertainers would go back to entertaining.

Can I recall a time when popular music had strong elements of fun fantasy and healthy escapism? Yes. Seems like a long time ago, though.

Free speech, free expression -- sure. However, lately I'm inclined to agree with Elton John: Keep politics -out- of music.

Besides, the truly good and effective politically-motivated song (or poem or speech or whatever) is few and far between. Most seems simply pandering to the most basic "for or against" ideas. :sleep:

My 2 cents' worth (and to each their own, of course).

--Cindy

P.S.: I read the "American Idiot" lyrics the other day. Ho-hum...a 12-year-old could have written them. Whoopie do.

John Creighton · 2004-09-26 22:34:15

However, lately I'm inclined to agree with Elton John: Keep politics -out- of music.

Allice cooper said something along the same lines. He thought of people who mixed politics with music as traders because to him music was an escape from all that.

C M Edwards · 2004-09-27 13:39:53

Sorry, I come from a country with a long tradition of singing songs to tick people off. Am I supposed to give all of that up just on Alice Cooper's say-so? Stop singing the US national anthem just to make Sir Elton John feel better?

I don't think so.

clark · 2004-09-27 13:42:27

Where have all the flowers gone? :;):

C M Edwards · 2004-09-27 13:45:28

What are the requirements for a war to be considered another Vietnam in terms of:
Other (Please Specify)

Hippies.

Cobra Commander · 2004-09-27 13:48:37

Hippies.

Been to one of those anti-war marches, we've got hippies already. The same ones in many cases. Sad longhair socialists trying to rediscover their youth by protesting the war, any war will do...

BWhite · 2004-09-27 14:07:26

Which reminds me, I recently felt the need to go out, find a copy of "Peace Train" by Cat Stevens and play it - loud and often.
:laugh: I'm just finding everything funny today.

http://www2.cnn.com/2004/US/09/21/plane … verted.ap/

Question. . .

Which protest song included the line:

"John Foster Dulles ain't nuttin' but the name of an airport, now. . ."

Sorry if I posted this before.

clark · 2004-09-27 14:22:42

"B-Movie"

Well, the first thing I want to say is…”Mandate my ass!”
Because it seems as though we’ve been convinced that 26% of the registered voters, not even 26% of the American people, but 26% of the registered voters form a mandate – or a landslide. 21% voted for Skippy and 3, 4% voted for somebody else who might have been running.

But, oh yeah, I remember. In this year that we have now declared the year from Shogun to Reagan, I remember what I said about Reagan…meant it. Acted like an actor…Hollyweird. Acted like a liberal. Acted like General Franco when he acted like governor of California, then he acted like a republican. Then he acted like somebody was going to vote for him for president. And now we act like 26% of the registered voters is actually a mandate. We’re all actors in this I suppose.

What has happened is that in the last 20 years, America has changed from a producer to a consumer. And all consumers know that when the producer names the tune…the consumer has got to dance. That’s the way it is. We used to be a producer – very inflexible at that, and now we are consumers and, finding it difficult to understand. Natural resources and minerals will change your world. The Arabs used to be in the 3rd World. They have bought the 2nd World and put a firm down payment on the 1st one. Controlling your resources will control your world. This country has been surprised by the way the world looks now. They don’t know if they want to be Matt Dillon or Bob Dylan. They don’t know if they want to be diplomats or continue the same policy - of nuclear nightmare diplomacy. John Foster Dulles ain’t nothing but the name of an airport now.

The idea concerns the fact that this country wants nostalgia. They want to go back as far as they can – even if it’s only as far as last week. Not to face now or tomorrow, but to face backwards. And yesterday was the day of our cinema heroes riding to the rescue at the last possible moment. The day of the man in the white hat or the man on the white horse - or the man who always came to save America at the last moment – someone always came to save America at the last moment – especially in “B” movies. And when America found itself having a hard time facing the future, they looked for people like John Wayne. But since John Wayne was no longer available, they settled for Ronald Reagan – and it has placed us in a situation that we can only look at – like a “B” movie.

Come with us back to those inglorious days when heroes weren’t zeros. Before fair was square. When the cavalry came straight away and all-American men were like Hemingway to the days of the wondrous “B” movie. The producer underwritten by all the millionaires necessary will be Casper “The Defensive” Weinberger – no more animated choice is available. The director will be Attila the Haig, running around frantically declaring himself in control and in charge. The ultimate realization of the inmates taking over at the asylum. The screenplay will be adapted from the book called “Voodoo Economics” by George “Papa Doc” Bush. Music by the “Village People” the very military "Macho Man."

“Company!!!”
“Macho, macho man!”
“ Two-three-four.”
“ He likes to be – well, you get the point.”
“Huuut! Your left! Your left! Your left…right, left, right, left, right…!”

A theme song for saber-rallying and selling wars door-to-door. Remember, we’re looking for the closest thing we can find to John Wayne. Clichés abound like kangaroos – courtesy of some spaced out Marlin Perkins, a Reagan contemporary. Clichés like, “itchy trigger finger” and “tall in the saddle” and “riding off or on into the sunset.” Clichés like, “Get off of my planet by sundown!” More so than clichés like, “he died with his boots on.” Marine tough the man is. Bogart tough the man is. Cagney tough the man is. Hollywood tough the man is. Cheap stick tough. And Bonzo’s substantial. The ultimate in synthetic selling: A Madison Avenue masterpiece – a miracle – a cotton-candy politician…Presto! Macho!

“Macho, macho man!”

Put your orders in America. And quick as Kodak your leaders duplicate with the accent being on the dupe - cause all of a sudden we have fallen prey to selective amnesia - remembering what we want to remember and forgetting what we choose to forget. All of a sudden, the man who called for a blood bath on our college campuses is supposed to be Dudley “God-damn” Do-Right?

“You go give them liberals hell Ronnie.” That was the mandate. To the new “Captain Bly” on the new ship of fools. It was doubtlessly based on his chameleon performance of the past - as a liberal democrat – as the head of the Studio Actor’s Guild. When other celluloid saviors were cringing in terror from McCarthy – Ron stood tall. It goes all the way back from Hollywood to hillbilly. From liberal to libelous, from “Bonzo” to Birch idol…born again. Civil rights, women’s rights, gay rights…it’s all wrong. Call in the cavalry to disrupt this perception of freedom gone wild. God damn it…first one wants freedom, then the whole damn world wants freedom.

Nostalgia, that’s what we want…the good ol’ days…when we gave’em hell. When the buck stopped somewhere and you could still buy something with it. To a time when movies were in black and white – and so was everything else. Even if we go back to the campaign trail, before six-gun Ron shot off his face and developed hoof-in-mouth. Before the free press went down before full-court press. And were reluctant to review the menu because they knew the only thing available was – Crow.

Lon Chaney, our man of a thousand faces - no match for Ron. Doug Henning does the make-up - special effects from Grecian Formula 16 and Crazy Glue. Transportation furnished by the David Rockefeller of Remote Control Company. Their slogan is, “Why wait for 1984? You can panic now...and avoid the rush.”

So much for the good news…

As Wall Street goes, so goes the nation. And here’s a look at the closing numbers – racism’s up, human rights are down, peace is shaky, war items are hot - the House claims all ties. Jobs are down, money is scarce – and common sense is at an all-time low with heavy trading. Movies were looking better than ever and now no one is looking because, we’re starring in a “B” movie. And we would rather have John Wayne…we would rather have John Wayne.

"You don’t need to be in no hurry.
You ain’t never really got to worry.
And you don’t need to check on how you feel.
Just keep repeating that none of this is real.
And if you’re sensing, that something’s wrong,
Well just remember, that it won’t be too long
Before the director cuts the scene…yea."

“This ain’t really your life,
Ain’t really your life,
Ain’t really ain’t nothing but a movie.”

[Refrain repeated about 25 times or more in an apocalyptic crescendo with a military cadence.]

“This ain’t really your life,
Ain’t really your life,
Ain’t really ain’t nothing but a movie.”

Palomar · 2004-09-27 14:52:52

Stop singing the US national anthem just to make Sir Elton John feel better?
I don't think so.

*Who said anything about the U.S. national anthem?

No one.

I'm discussing rock 'n roll and pop music. The U.S. national anthem is in neither genre.

And you drop Elton John's name alongside the national anthem? :hm: He's said nothing about it.

--Cindy

C M Edwards · 2004-09-27 15:46:05

*Who said anything about the U.S. national anthem?
No one.

I did.

(I'd say it again, but it's digitally recorded. :;): )

The US National Anthem started out a prime example of mixing music and politics for purposes of protest. Sung to the tune of an old drinking song, it was expressly meant to irritate the British.

And you drop Elton John's name alongside the national anthem?

Why not? It's the sort of thing he was talking about.

As for it not being pop music, I think you're drawing the distinction in terms of era and genre rather than popularity. "The Star Spangled Banner" was popular long before it was national.

"The Star Spangled Banner" didn't become the national anthem just because of that, though. I'm not sure that "American Idiot" has national anthem potential, for example. Doesn't play up anybody's pride, not enough for people to rally around, etc.

"Peace Train" is a pleasant little ditty, though. I expect to hear more of it...

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