Da Vinci in the Running - Let the Space Race Begin!

C M Edwards · 2004-08-23 13:55:55

Well yeah, Spacenut. Odds are, that ceramic cloth heat shield is going to be his death shroud. The good citizens of Saskatoon can sleep easy in October, though.

SpaceNut · 2004-08-24 10:48:58

Though not about Da Vinci it is about the xprize and being inovative for finaincing of there project.

Snipet:
Space leftovers for sale:
Rocket science is a dirty, messy business, as amply illustrated by this month's space-race mishaps involving Space Transport Corp. and Armadillo Aerospace. But in this age of Internet commerce, even when the rocket goes to pieces, the scraps don't necessarily go to waste.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3217961/

SpaceNut · 2004-08-27 07:14:06

Bureaucracy Pins Rocket to Earth, Da Vinci a privately developed spacecraft, still doesn't have a couple of precious pieces of paper it needs to get to space. I guess they feel that the rocket has not been though enough testing to ensure safety of crew and of flight area.

http://www.wired.com/news/space/0,2697, … _tophead_6

SpaceNut · 2004-08-31 10:37:03

As we grow nearer to the time when the xprize will be won we need to ask those would be Astronauts to Weigh Acceptable Risk as they prepare for flight.

snipet:
It's a tiny drama in the history of space flight -- an argument between a do-it-yourself Canadian astronaut and doubters alarmed he's about to foolishly expose himself and others to harm by blasting off in a largely untested rocket ship.

http://www.wired.com/news/space/0,2697, … _tophead_3

SpaceNut · 2004-08-31 11:04:38

The Canadian government has not yet given its stamp of approval to the da Vinci Project's rocket launch in Kindersley, putting the Oct. 2 liftoff in some jeopardy.

http://www.canada.com/saskato....51201c1

Question, is this a privately owned company or is it a canadian sponsored vehicle? What has canada invested in this project such that they would even have a say?

SpaceNut · 2004-09-01 07:49:47

Here is a thought for the xprize and for any company that would want to build and launch rockets here in the US. If possible purchase the pad 36A complex that launches the atlas 2 rockets. It just launched the last one and will basically sit idle and be used for spare parts to fix any issues with 36B launch pad.

Launch team salutes Cape's pad 36A after final liftoff
http://www.spaceflightnow.com/atlas/ac1 … ad36a.html

Mark S · 2004-09-01 19:10:01

It's always good to have some competition to SpaceShipOne, such as DaVinci and the other teams that will be attempting a launch soon. Yet the downside is that none of these teams can really compete with Rutan, even though one may beat him into space.

For starters, SpaceShipOne went through a cautious and exhaustive flight test program. It has also been designed for quick turnarounds and almost-assured reentry.

The other competitors have mostly gone for simpler, vertical takeoff and landing approaches. This is a way of achieving first flight quickly with assured reentry, and there is nothing really wrong with it. However, Rutan's air-drop approach is arguably better for the purposes of a tourist vehicle. It keeps the tourists off their backs while they are waiting to launch, gets them to launch altitude with a piloted, powered aircraft, and returns them to earth gently on a runway.

Most distressingly, the DaVinci team wants to compete for the X-Prize on its first flight in what looks like a tight race with Rutan. If they weren't playing catch-up, they might have time to launch a few missions to the upper amosphere before attempting the X-Prize.

I am afraid of what will happen if somebody gets killed in the initial suborbital flights, as the US or Canadian governments may decide to regulate the industry into the grave. Rutan's approach has minimized this possibility by slowly pushing the envelope and fixing the bugs (and even then they nearly met disaster.) The DaVinci team had better get it correct the first flight.

In short, I like the idea of sub-orbital competition, but I believe that the other teams should not rush their programs to beat SpaceShipOne. Rather, they should slow down precisely because of the lessons we learned from SpaceShipOne. Even if Rutan wins the fairly meager $10 million prize, the real money is to come when the sub-orbital companies begin offering passenger flights. The Rutan competitiors should not lose sight of the long-term goal.

mboeller · 2004-09-02 05:30:41

For starters, SpaceShipOne went through a cautious and exhaustive flight test program. It has also been designed for quick turnarounds and almost-assured reentry.
The other competitors have mostly gone for simpler, vertical takeoff and landing approaches. This is a way of achieving first flight quickly with assured reentry, and there is nothing really wrong with it. However, Rutan's air-drop approach is arguably better for the purposes of a tourist vehicle. It keeps the tourists off their backs while they are waiting to launch, gets them to launch altitude with a piloted, powered aircraft, and returns them to earth gently on a runway.
Most distressingly, the DaVinci team wants to compete for the X-Prize on its first flight in what looks like a tight race with Rutan. If they weren't playing catch-up, they might have time to launch a few missions to the upper amosphere before attempting the X-Prize.
I am afraid of what will happen if somebody gets killed in the initial suborbital flights, as the US or Canadian governments may decide to regulate the industry into the grave. Rutan's approach has minimized this possibility by slowly pushing the envelope and fixing the bugs (and even then they nearly met disaster.) The DaVinci team had better get it correct the first flight.

WOW, You have read my mind.

IMHO DaVinci should stop now. IMO it is ridiculous to go from Zero to 100km in one go without any tests at all. The chances for an successful launch are in my opinion slim. If they don't stop with this stupid behaviour and adopt an reasonable "build a little..test a little" approach they could seriously damage the complete XPrize and the suborbital launch attempts from other companies with an better development strategy.

I don't care if the pilot gets killed or not (this is really up to him) but I fear the reactions of the public and the FAA if this launch goes wrong.

SpaceNut · 2004-09-02 08:58:07

Backlash from last months xprize trial run by the Rubicon rocket that had to be blown up shortly after launch. So how much more or will the amount of regulations increase on the private industry for them to endure while on there way towards developing the ability to get man into space cheaply.

Forks: Rocketeer says launches are environmentally friendly, but marine sanctuary may prosecute over Aug. 8 launch

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5885322/

C M Edwards · 2004-09-02 12:59:36

Interesting article. I was unaware that there was a natural aversion to rocketry.

Is that anything like the impulse that makes children stop sucking their thumbs if you put quinine on their fingernails?

SpaceNut · 2004-09-03 13:31:44

I know that I loved rockets when I was a kid. Building many of the models and launching them high into the sky. Single stage as well as multiple ones as well. Most were parachute recovery but a few were glide back style circular return. Even did a couple of launches in high school as a project.

I think the fear is for the pilots of these crafts and not the idea that they will all explode or something.

SpaceNut · 2004-09-08 11:05:55

Xprize race is heating up this month.

Weather hampers da Vinci test
Project team in U.S. for trial run of helium balloon

http://www.canada.com/saskato....0010724

ROMANIAN TEAM PLANS SEPTEMBER 8 TEST LAUNCH
http://www.xprize.org/press_r....ID=1142

SpaceNut · 2004-09-13 11:20:13

It appears that the builders of spaceshipone are out to garantee that they do not fall short of the entry into space. SpaceShipOne Rocket Engine Gets an Upgrade while only
20 % more fuel it still is enough to do the job.

http://space.com/missionlaunches/xprize … 40913.html

SpaceNut · 2004-09-14 06:14:05

The wall of Nasa seem to be coming down slowly though the efforts of alternative space ventures and though the tourist side. At least it sounds like they are getting there monies worth.

Zero-gravity flights go mainstream
U.S. company offers public chance to experience weightlessness

Such flights have long been available for researchers and astronauts from NASA and the French company Novespace, and the Russians took parabolic flight one step further by allowing tourists to buy rides on similarly outfitted IL-76 cargo jets.

But the venture involving Zero Gravity Corp. and Amerijet International, both based in Fort Lauderdale, Fla., is the first to win approval from the Federal Aviation Administration for public parabolic flights in the United States.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5992077/

Broward flights to offer no-gravity experience at $2,950 per flier
By ascending at a roughly 45 degree angle and then diving and ascending again as in a roller coaster, fliers first are brought to Mars-like conditions, or about one-third their weight. Next with another series of parabolas come lunar conditions, about one-sixth their weight.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/busines....s-front

SpaceNut · 2004-09-17 07:56:03

BREAKING NEWS: TEAM DA VINCI SCORES SUCCESS IN TEST
X PRIZE competitor The GoldenPalace.com Space Project: Powered by the da Vinci Project passed a key milestone

September 12, testing out the concept of balloon-assisted launch. The "EO-OS SEVEN" polyethylene test balloon carried a 200 lb payload to 40,000 feet from a launch site in Colorado, USA.

http://www.xprize.com/press_room/press_ … ticleID=96

Rxke · 2004-09-17 11:41:03

Good.

before anyone says: "so what? they launched a friggin balloon! what's so special about that?"

well everyone and his dog in the sceptics camp said that balloon was too big to work out ok.

Gives those guys the much-needed boost in 'believability' of their competence, IMO...

Still... They haven't launched their rocket yet...

chat · 2004-09-17 19:30:39

GCNRevenger,

A way does exist for small rockets to get to high orbit for little fuel.
Or even escape earth gravity well.

Atmospheric bounce.

A small rocket that just escapes the atmosphere, can then attempt to return to earth at the wrong angle of decent and bounce to a higher orbit.

This technique works well for flat stones on ponds

I'm always amazed how the simple things like this get overlooked.

SpaceNut · 2004-09-17 20:00:40

Add a little power on the down slide and a set of wings to get the glide path just right and you just might make it into orbit with a ship maybe only twice the size of the SpaceShipOne.

Mad Grad Student · 2004-09-17 23:21:43

GCN doesn't seem to be around here, and I hate to fill in for him, but I'm afraid that this idea really wouldn't work. You see, when a stone skips on a pond's surface, it always comes back with less energy than when it enters the water. Also, you can skip off of a pond or lake because the water is very smooth and there is a very sudden density change of about 100:1 when the stone hits the surface of the water. The atmosphere is very turbulent, and it very gradually gains density the lower you get. Trying to bounce of the atmosphere would be like trying to bounce off of the mist on Niagra Falls.

That's not to say that small rockets can't make orbit efficiently. Everyone's familiar with the hoopla about using scramjets to reach mach 10-ish, then rocketing out of the atmosphere, but why stop the scramjet there? Instead, you could set up a trajectory so that the vehicle reaches mach 10 or so and leaves the atmosphere, reenters about six minutes later, upon which you increase your speed still more, and repeat untill you're in orbit. It would put pretty big temperature loads on the airframe, but if you set up the trajectory right, you could just graze the upper atmosphere at around 250,000 feet, and never have an indicated airspeed above mach 1.5, and thus relatively small heat problems.

Da Vinci's ballon test was very good for them, because of the technical accomplishment and, perhaps more importantly, because it will help get rid of the giggle factor around the team. I remember going to the X Prize message board for the first time around October last year, and everyone scoffed and jeered at Burt Rutan as though he were the grim reaper come to snuff out alt. space. They derided Scaled Composites and its massive corporate conglomerate of 50 employees and its unfair advantages made possible when you have an entire airport hanger's worth of resources (note: irony intended [duh]). Now he's everybody's savior, come to save the alt. space revolution from the clutches of, well, I suppose it would have to be himself, and the Da Vinci project is just ignored or laughed at. They won't win the X Prize, but Da Vinci will win silver in the race, I feel that everyone is probably giving them a bit too little credit.

As for Zero-Gravity, the concept looks cool, but I remember reading on their website that the standard routine has 20 parabolas, 10 of Mars gravity, 9 of Moon gravity, and a single 0-g parabola. I might pay $3,000 for 20 0-g parabolas, but for a bunch of wimpy "reduced" gravity ones? C'mon, if I want to play in Moon gravity I'll dust off Tony Hawk, bring on the zero-g! :angry:

Nevertheless, 2004 is becoming a very good year for alt. space.

SpaceNut · 2004-09-24 07:04:30

Lots of articles in the news today as we draw ever closer to historic flight and hopefully era of a new space race.

SpaceShipOne aims to claim $10 million
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoda....illion+

Watching SpaceShipOne Prize Attempts
Flight Dates and Times:
Wed., September 29th, 2004 7:00 am- 10:00 am (tentative) Mon., October 4th, 20047:00 am- 10:00 am (tentative)
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoda....ocument

Countdown begins Poway's SpaceDev part of historic civilian launch
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news....ev.html

Also it is felt that Innovation will cut space travel costs, experts say
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoda....ocument

The New Rocketeers article of other viaing for the xprize as well.
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoda....ocument

Mad Grad Student · 2004-09-24 23:18:37

Well, unfortunately it doesn't seem like da Vinci's in the running anymore. Earlier today they announced that their X Prize flights would be delayed at least two weeks because of technical problems, of which I seem to remember the pressure capsule fabrication being near the top of the list. I can't really say I'm surprised, the team never really had that much credibility. Heck, when they rolled-out their rocket they hadn't even put the seats in or painted it yet. Maybe it's for the best, Brian Freeny won't get himself, and perhaps those around him, killed, but unless Scaled runs into enormous problems on their September 29th there's no way on Earth they can win the X Prize.

There's always next year, oh wait, these are the Canadians and not the Cubs/Red Sox.

Just kidding, the Canadians rock, at least they have a commander-in-chief that's less stupid than ours. Go Canadian Arrow!

Mark S · 2004-09-25 21:44:47

I have a lot of doubts about the DaVinci project, from the flimsy balloon to the inflatable re-entry cone to the fact that they want to shoot for space on the first launch rather than a series of flights that successively push the flight envelope until it goes beyond the 100 km mark.

Really, I fail to see why they need a balloon to launch the rocket. A carrier aircraft provides an initial velocity to the spaceship (like in SpacShipOne,) but DaVinci's balloon will not give the rocket an appreciable initial velocity. The key to achieving spaceflight is not altitude, but speed.

If the DaVinci team decides to adopt a realistic testing program, and if the balloon launch works as advertised, they may still be able to beat the Canadian Arrow into space as Canada's first spacecraft. That's not to say the Arrow's design is safer; I generally like it, but I view their all-liquid engines as higher-risk than the hybrids of SS1 and the DaVinci Wildfire.

SpaceNut · 2004-10-02 20:44:45

It appears that Da Vinci team has finally made the final hurdles and may actually get to start there rocket but no launch date has been set yet. Transport Canada's Launch Safety Office said it had granted a permit for the team. The application is valid for two launches between October 2, 2004 and November 1, 2004. Last link has the launch safety conditions.

Canada Still Has Eyes on X Prize
http://www.wired.com/news/space/0,2697, … _tophead_3

DA VINCI TEAM APPLICATION APPROVED BY TRANSPORT CANADA
http://www.tc.gc.ca/mediaroom/releases/ … -h054e.htm

SpaceNut · 2004-10-15 06:21:57

Not much of an update but for what it is worth.
The Da Vinci's Canadian Project rocketeers are hoping to launch a privately built spacecraft from the small Saskatchewan town of Kindersley met with community officials Thursday, updating residents on the mission’s progress and reaffirming their intent to fly.

http://space.com/missionlaunches/davinc … 41015.html

SpaceNut · 2004-10-20 06:43:11

Da Vinci X Prize Project Faces Final Insurance Deadline On Nov. 1, Feeney's insurance policy expires.

http://www.spacedaily.com/news/xprize-04zn.html

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#26 2004-08-23 13:55:55

Re: Da Vinci in the Running - Let the Space Race Begin!

#27 2004-08-24 10:48:58

Re: Da Vinci in the Running - Let the Space Race Begin!

#28 2004-08-27 07:14:06

Re: Da Vinci in the Running - Let the Space Race Begin!

#29 2004-08-31 10:37:03

Re: Da Vinci in the Running - Let the Space Race Begin!

#30 2004-08-31 11:04:38

Re: Da Vinci in the Running - Let the Space Race Begin!

#31 2004-09-01 07:49:47

Re: Da Vinci in the Running - Let the Space Race Begin!

#32 2004-09-01 19:10:01

Re: Da Vinci in the Running - Let the Space Race Begin!

#33 2004-09-02 05:30:41

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#34 2004-09-02 08:58:07

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#35 2004-09-02 12:59:36

Re: Da Vinci in the Running - Let the Space Race Begin!

#36 2004-09-03 13:31:44

Re: Da Vinci in the Running - Let the Space Race Begin!

#37 2004-09-08 11:05:55

Re: Da Vinci in the Running - Let the Space Race Begin!

#38 2004-09-13 11:20:13

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#39 2004-09-14 06:14:05

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#40 2004-09-17 07:56:03

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#41 2004-09-17 11:41:03

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#42 2004-09-17 19:30:39

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#43 2004-09-17 20:00:40

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#44 2004-09-17 23:21:43

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#45 2004-09-24 07:04:30

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#46 2004-09-24 23:18:37

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#47 2004-09-25 21:44:47

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#48 2004-10-02 20:44:45

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#49 2004-10-15 06:21:57

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#50 2004-10-20 06:43:11

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