Man never reached the Moon!?

Themescules · 2002-09-13 15:58:06

What do you all think of the Guy that has been on the news today saying that he has PROOF that the whole man reaching the moon was all a hoax? I know this rumor has been around for years, but now he says he has more proof. What are your opinions on this and research to other Planets.I find it quite funny.

Adrian · 2002-09-13 16:38:22

We've covered this somewhere else in New Mars but here are two useful links that I think serve as excellent rebuttals for any 'Moon hoax' proponents:

The Great Moon Hoax (NASA page)

Bad Astronomy on TV

Palomar · 2002-09-13 16:50:14

*We discussed it a while back in "Meta News Mars," under the thread "Where did all the old posts go?" [or something like that].

Themescules · 2002-09-13 17:23:09

Maybe SOME of you have covered the Moon Hoax in the past, but the new evidence came up today and I was wondering if anyone had anything to say about the New stuff, not what you had gone over in the past, also if you don't want to discuss it or if any subject bores you, you do have the option of ignoring the post and replying to one that does interest you.

Phobos · 2002-09-13 17:33:54

Which news channel did you see it on? Was it a national broadcast? I'd like to see how they portrayed their story on the moon hoax. Did they show both sides of the debate or did they just let the conspiracy theorists rant on without challenge? I hope they gave a balanced view because a lot of people tend to believe everything they hear on TV. I just finished reading "Entering Space" by Zubrin and he mentioned the work of some psychologists who claimed that ideas undergo a kind of evolutionary process similiar to that in biology. Some ideas just seem to have staying power in the population as a whole and seem to catch on even if they're irrational while others die off. They claimed that bad ideas which have staying power could be just as destructive to civilization as nuclear war. The rapid fire way in which these moon hoax ideas are gaining acceptance among people makes me wonder if those psychologists Zubrin mentioned might be right.

Adrian · 2002-09-13 17:43:52

Sorry if I seemed a bit dismissive in my post. It's just that past experience with the Moon hoax has shown me that every time 'startling new evidence' is released, it turns out to be a variation of (or identical to) the same old guff about wonky shadows, or not being able to see stars, or changing landscapes. Would you mind telling us about what was said by the guy on TV?

Themescules · 2002-09-13 19:30:53

This is the idiot that they had on the news today saying he can prove that man never set foot on the moon. I've also included some fun related articles. Like I said in my first post I find the whole thing very funny. Also thought that him getting punched out by Aldrin was great.

http://www.cnn.com/2002....ex.html

http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/space/09/1 … index.html

http://www.cnn.com/2002....ex.html

I find the Wild West story on Mars interesting.

Palomar · 2002-09-13 20:37:03

Zubrin mentioned the work of some psychologists...They claimed that bad ideas which have staying power could be just as destructive to civilization as nuclear war.

"It requires ages to destroy a popular opinion." -- Voltaire

--Cindy

Phobos · 2002-09-15 02:55:58

"It requires ages to destroy a popular opinion." -- Voltaire

And I don't think even that is often enough time! I bet all of the moon hoax nuts out there will take it as proof positive that Aldrin never went to the Moon because he refused to swear on the Bible. No doubt the nut that provoked Aldrin will make a pretty penny off the publicity when he starts selling videotapes that claim the encounter as "proof" that we never went to the moon. Since when does making people swear to anything constitute proof anyway? We know of all the liars in court who freely swear to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth with their hands firmly planted on the good book. I think Aldrin saw this guy for what he was, a charlatan that was out to make a buck and on top of that, one that was willing to exploit Aldrin's religious beliefs in the process. If I was Aldrin I would have punched the idiot's lights out to.

Echus_Chasma · 2003-01-11 15:05:07

"It requires ages to destroy a popular opinion." -- Voltaire
And I don't think even that is often enough time! I bet all of the moon hoax nuts out there will take it as proof positive that Aldrin never went to the Moon because he refused to swear on the Bible. No doubt the nut that provoked Aldrin will make a pretty penny off the publicity when he starts selling videotapes that claim the encounter as "proof" that we never went to the moon. Since when does making people swear to anything constitute proof anyway? We know of all the liars in court who freely swear to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth with their hands firmly planted on the good book. I think Aldrin saw this guy for what he was, a charlatan that was out to make a buck and on top of that, one that was willing to exploit Aldrin's religious beliefs in the process. If I was Aldrin I would have punched the idiot's lights out to.

It actually says in the Bible "do not swear by anything", or something to that effect.

Palomar · 2003-01-11 16:00:25

"It requires ages to destroy a popular opinion." -- Voltaire
And I don't think even that is often enough time! I bet all of the moon hoax nuts out there will take it as proof positive that Aldrin never went to the Moon because he refused to swear on the Bible. No doubt the nut that provoked Aldrin will make a pretty penny off the publicity when he starts selling videotapes that claim the encounter as "proof" that we never went to the moon. Since when does making people swear to anything constitute proof anyway? We know of all the liars in court who freely swear to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth with their hands firmly planted on the good book. I think Aldrin saw this guy for what he was, a charlatan that was out to make a buck and on top of that, one that was willing to exploit Aldrin's religious beliefs in the process. If I was Aldrin I would have punched the idiot's lights out to.

*It's fanaticism at its ugliest, basest level. A ::former:: friend turned on me after I told her I didn't agree with her religious beliefs/principles. I didn't care what she believed, but she couldn't return the favor. All of a sudden, to her jaundiced eye and little mind, I [like every other person who disagrees with her profession of faith] was branded absolutely untrustworthy in every way, shape and form. Of course, the friendship didn't last.

Not everyone believes in the Bible. Of course, fanatics will misconstrue your refusal/failure to swear on their holy book [outside a court of law -- and I think it should be nixed as a court procedure anyway; people lie all the time under oath, after having sworn on the Bible, you point out -- and the Constitution also guarantees the right of the citizen to NOT have to make any sort of public profession of faith, which I presume could also relate to gestures and oaths] as your being devious, having "something to hide", etc., etc. With them, you must recognize their beliefs as The Truth or you don't....and woe to you if you don't. It's demanded by them that you conform and acknowledge their religious sentiments or be branded an automatic liar if you don't. Your right to ::refuse:: to recognize so-called (and imposed) religious authority isn't recognized by them.

I'm glad Aldrin responded the way he did; no one has to take that kind of harrassment.

--Cindy

soph · 2003-01-11 16:05:31

If I'm ever called to court, I will not swear on the Bible, because in so doing, I will have already violated the oath, since I dont believe god exists, or has any bearing on the legal system.

Im sure god's got judge judy on, rubbing his/her/its hands together, waiting for her honor to catch someone in a lie.

Cobra Commander · 2003-01-11 16:05:32

My major problem with the reasoning of the "moon hoax" fringe has always been this: To create a convincing hoax you need not only astronauts to fake the mission, but all the thousands of support staff, engineers, factory workers and so on. The whole thing falls apart if no one can find anyone who worked on the program

Obviously, thousands of people can't be kept quiet about a scam of that magnitude. Therefore, they have to believe that they're actually working on a moon program.

Now, if you're going to spend all the time, effort and money to create a hoax involved enough to fool all the people who are "working" on it, you might as well just go to the damn moon!

Palomar · 2003-01-11 16:27:30

My major problem with the reasoning of the "moon hoax" fringe has always been this: To create a convincing hoax you need not only astronauts to fake the mission, but all the thousands of support staff, engineers, factory workers and so on. The whole thing falls apart if no one can find anyone who worked on the program
Obviously, thousands of people can't be kept quiet about a scam of that magnitude. Therefore, they have to believe that they're actually working on a moon program.
Now, if you're going to spend all the time, effort and money to create a hoax involved enough to fool all the people who are "working" on it, you might as well just go to the damn moon!

*Precisely!! I posted something similar months ago, last summer.

Not to mention the scientists who performed experiments on rocks brought back with the mission, the professional (and amateur) astronomers who kept the rocket in their eyepiece and/or with a tracking system as it continued on its way to the moon, etc., etc.

You can't get that many people, of varying disciplines, professions, etc., to all agree to deliberately lie -- and then more than once. We're supposed to believe, via these hoax conspiracy theorists, that all these professional journalists, scientists, engineers, etc., etc., all agreed to lie and cover for each other -- for years?

It just doesn't happen.

--Cindy

Palomar · 2003-01-11 16:42:25

If I'm ever called to court, I will not swear on the Bible, because in so doing, I will have already violated the oath, since I dont believe god exists, or has any bearing on the legal system.

*Indeed.

And besides those of us who are agnostic (me) or atheist, what about persons of other religions? Would Christians in this nation like to swear on a Koran? Or a Talmud? Or on the Upanishads? No? Then why should Muslims, Jews, and Hindi have to swear on a book not considered holy by them?

People will either be honest or they will not. Any swearing in before testifying in court should be based on personal honor and the court's willingness to give benefit of the doubt to the person swearing in...until perjury/dishonesty could be proven by nonreligious and objective means.

This is getting off track; sorry. I've said my peace.

--Cindy

Auqakah · 2003-01-12 11:41:54

I'm a Christian and I wouldn't swear on a Bible. So it isn't just agnostics, atheists and members of whatever other beliefs there may be who have no wish to - some Christians consider swearing on the Bible to be blasphemous.

I also happen to think its ridiculous. A book - no matter how Holy I might consider it - is not going to make me not lie. Especially when the very book that I'd be swearing on states many times that all I'd have to do is ask forgiveness, and it wouldn't matter anyway (on a spiritual level, if not a legal one). <edited here, because I wasn't very clear>

So what the heck is the point in the whole swearing on a Bible thing, anyway?

Onto the actual topic.....

I don't care if the moon landings were faked, or weren't faked, or were partly faked, or whatever. It doesn't matter. Who cares? The important - and critical - thing is, that whether we went or not, we sure aren't going now. /That/ is what matters.

Not what happened over fourty years ago.

Phobos · 2003-01-19 15:17:59

don't care if the moon landings were faked, or weren't faked, or were partly faked, or whatever. It doesn't matter. Who cares? The important - and critical - thing is, that whether we went or not, we sure aren't going now. /That/ is what matters.

I care. The moon landings were a very historical event and a testament to the technical power of the 20th Century. I don't want people in 2100 looking back on the 20th Century and thinking the moon landings were faked. The charlatans who are hawking off this hoax crap should try balancing and challenging their own theories by presenting interpretations of their "evidence" from people who have the technical and scientific background to understand it. The fact that they keep things so one sided is strong evidence that they're just in this for the money. Every point the hoaxers bring up is easily explained away.

Auqakah · 2003-01-19 18:14:13

Oh, don't get me wrong - I'd rather that in the future people believed that the moon landings did happen, as they are an important part of history.

But I was saying that I care /far more/ that we haven't been back for a while.

And in comparison, I don't care if the first was faked or not.

Josh Cryer · 2003-01-19 18:15:05

The moon hoaxers need to go to the moon, and clean up the landing spots so that future generations think that it really was faked.

They better hurry, though. I read that they built a telescope recently that could view the landing spot(s).

Phobos · 2003-01-29 22:08:59

The moon hoaxers need to go to the moon, and clean up the landing spots so that future generations think that it really was faked.
They better hurry, though. I read that they built a telescope recently that could view the landing spot(s).

LOL! What's your favorite hoaxers "proof" that we didn't go to the Moon? I think I like the bit about how the camera couldn't follow the LEM as it ascended into space because someone would have to be aiming it. I guess they never heard of remote control. You'd think that the hoaxers who put this stuff out would do some research but that might hurt the bottom line.

Shaun Barrett · 2003-01-29 23:50:34

In addition to the telescope thing, I read somewhere that there's a small lunar satellite in the offing which will be taking high resolution pictures of the surface for sale to interested parties.
They plan to specifically target the landing sites because they figure those are some of the areas of most interest to the average person.
I'm not sure just how good the resolution is supposed to be but, with any luck, it might perhaps pick up the tracks of the lunar rovers too. Then it will be interesting to hear how the naysayers weasel their way out of that one!!

Ranger_2833 · 2003-02-06 15:56:10

Then they'll just claim that there are no sattelites in lunar orbit and the pictures were faked.

The only way to deal with these people is by using the "Buzz Aldrin Method". (See here if you don't know what I mean: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americ … 1.stm]Buzz gets mad!)

Maybe someday they'll just give up, but never underestimate the determination of the ignorant.

My hero:

Shaun Barrett · 2003-02-07 01:48:11

The "Buzz Aldrin Method" ... Ha Ha!!

I love it!
And I think you're probably 100% correct, Ranger_2833. It's the only method they'd understand!!

Buzz Aldrin happens to be one of my all-time favourite people too. In my view, he's one of the greatest living Americans - here in Australia, he'd be described as a living treasure! (God, I wish we had a space program ... and some people like Buzz to go with it! )

And Hi Phobos!
I meant to respond to your 'favorite hoaxers "proof"' survey but got side-tracked and forgot.
I like the one where they point out John Young (I think) isn't casting a shadow as he 'stands' next to the US flag. The photo, of course, is a 'still' from a film which shows Commander Young jumping straight up while saluting. The reason for the lack of a shadow on the ground at his feet, is because his feet were nearly a metre off the ground at the time!!!
What incredible fools these conspiracy theorists are! What manner of madness drives them to spout all this nonsense?!
???

Palomar · 2003-02-07 08:59:02

*I haven't paid much attention to the hoax crowd, but one moon hoax theory that sticks out in my mind is people saying, "it (photos, video) couldn't have been shot on the moon; look how close the horizon is! It had to be faked." Considering the moon is so small, of course the horizon appears closer there than it does on Earth...duh.

--Cindy

Josh Cryer · 2003-02-07 10:03:44

Yeah, Cindy, that's the funniest thing, since the horizon is actually part of the many things that prove we were on the moon! I recall something from the Apollo Archives, about how some of the bolders were just, amazing in size. Perspective it just so different up there. Without an atmosphere to scatter sunlight, it's just to difficult to judge things.

And I quite like the ?Buzz Aldrin Method.?

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