What would you consider another Vietnam

John Creighton · 2004-09-20 12:26:17

Often comparisons are made between wars and Vietnam. What are the requirements for a war to be considered another Vietnam in terms of:
Casualty Rate
Time To completion
Lack of Clear objective
Lack of knowledge of the enemy
Human rights violations
Lack of Public Support
Damage to the Local Environment
Drain on the Economy
Lack of People Believing in the War
Difficulty to accomplish the objective
Other (Please Specify)

Yang Liwei Rocket · 2004-09-20 12:44:47

Casualty Rate
Lack of Public Support
Damage to the Local Environment
Drain on the Economy

I would also say

Failure to win the global-political and propaganda, for example it's no good saying We are here to Bring Freedom to Iraq people
meanwhile Rumsfield's guys are doing crimes and torture in Abu-Graib :down:

this is another battle lost, the propaganda war going down hill :rant:

Cobra Commander · 2004-09-20 13:04:48

Well, to tkae on the biggest ones:

Casualty Rate

Tens of thousands.

Time To completion

Over a decade of actual sustained combat operations, not occupation or other garrison duties.

Human rights violations

One of many factors in the "winning hearts and minds" equation. Not necessarily a make or break issue in and of itself, though abuses should be avoided and be punished accordingly when they occur.

Lack of Public Support

When that lack of public support encourages the enemy to continue fighting in the face of repeated military defeat, secure in the knowledge that the American people haven't the resolve to finish.

Damage to the Local Environment

Notable for its near-irrelevance. So long as the people aren't starving and the land is not contaminated with radioactive or otherwise toxic substances enviromental concerns cannot be a primary concern of military operations. Factor into "winning hearts and minds" as a secondary issue.

Drain on the Economy

Sustained lack of growth over several years as a direct result of the war itself.

In short, this ain't no Vietnam. It may yet become one if handled poorly, but not yet by a long shot.

John Creighton · 2004-09-20 13:11:23

Notable for its near-irrelevance. So long as the people aren't starving and the land is not contaminated with radioactive or otherwise toxic substances enviromental concerns cannot be a primary concern of military operations. Factor into "winning hearts and minds" as a secondary issue.

I just included this because one of the negative effects of Vietnam was the dioxin released into the environment as a result of Agent Orange. The long term result was numerous birth defects. Granted there seems like know comparison to this on the war on Irag despite what some envirowennies may say about depleted uranium. I don’t know about environmental problems but any damage to the swage system lines could cause short term water contamination as occurred after the first gulf war.

Casualty Rate Tens of thousands.

In total, per year,...?

BWhite · 2004-09-20 13:20:08

An inability to articulate goals and objectives that can be accomplished by the deployment of overwhelming force.

As was recently said by a US general in Iraq, we cannot lose militarily but we cannot win militarily. Therefore, we will avoid using the full measure of our firepower, seeking not to alienate "hearts and minds" - - which creates absurd results like Najaf, where we talk tough to a warlord and then let him leave the shrine WITH his weapons!

In Vietnam, we could have occupied all of North Vietnam had we not sought to fight a limited war.

Bloody? Yes.
Follow on interminable insurgency and rebellion? Yes.

But we could have occupied Hanoi the way the Russians occupied Berlin and probably still lost the war.

= = =

Once again I am reminded of that hoary cliche from Vietnam. bin Laden is playing "GO" and we are playing "Chess" - - on the chessboard we are kicking butt, but in the game that matters, we are losing badly.

In Iraq we can =WIN= every engagement at the platoon level or higher and still lose the war.

= = =

#2 - - A war that divides America against itself. Another parallel with Vietnam.

John Creighton · 2004-09-20 13:25:48

#2 - - A war that divides America against itself. Another parallel with Vietnam.

United we stand divided we fall ???

clark · 2004-09-20 13:30:27

Obviously you have never tried a three-legged race.

John Creighton · 2004-09-20 13:31:41

Obviously you have never tried a three-legged race.

Divided we stand united we fall ???

clark · 2004-09-20 13:34:38

Precisely. :laugh:

Earthfirst · 2004-09-20 13:39:36

Another Vietnam, well it be another war in vietnam silly.
Iraq is the iraq war, it ended a few mouths ago, now their are just terriost from Iran want to brack iraq apart. The is no war there now!!! :rant:
Some of you are lacking in smarts, and get over the past!
Only the present matters.

John Creighton · 2004-09-20 13:43:59

Iraq is the iraq war, it ended a few mouths

And vietnam was just a police action ???

clark · 2004-09-20 13:49:38

I always thought of Vietnam as more of a day-hike.

Cobra Commander · 2004-09-20 14:00:13

Oh, well since it's hopeless...

Looks like mini-suns for everybody.

clark · 2004-09-20 14:06:51

Depression and WMD's don't mix. You should read the warning labels- it clearly states, "Do not try to lead the free world, WMD's will cause stress, irritability, and occasional bouts of meglomania."

Palomar · 2004-09-20 14:49:57

Often comparisons are made between wars and Vietnam. What are the requirements for a war to be considered another Vietnam in terms of:
Casualty Rate
Time To completion
Lack of knowledge of the enemy
Drain on the Economy
Difficulty to accomplish the objective

*The five I've quoted.

Although I definitely don't feel qualified to answer (I know some things about Vietnam, and do remember that war as a little kid...however, I'm more knowledgeable about WWII than it), or to pronounce it "another Vietnam."

It goes without saying I hope this all really does end up for the best, as all parties are concerned. :-\

--Cindy

clark · 2004-09-20 15:57:14

All things end. Usually for the best.

Gennaro · 2004-09-20 15:59:06

Lack of Clear objective

This was the single most determining factor of the Vietnam War and it's also what makes Iraq resemble it.
In both cases self-delusion, misapprehensions about the foreign policy situation and imagined threats guided the initial deployment of forces and in both cases the presence has deteriorated into an attempt to win the peace combined with considerations of prestige.

The rest is mostly just quantitative parameters.

John Creighton · 2004-09-21 17:42:10

The rest is mostly just quantitative parameters.

But numbers matter, If in Vietnam a tenth of the troups were lost per year and the war lasted a tenth as long it wouldn't of been close to as notable historically.

Earthfirst · 2004-09-21 21:30:42

You people are full of BS! You only know what the DNC tells you. Vietnam was an entirly different war any body with an IQ over 70 knows that. I quess that makes you poeple mild MR, or at risk?
Vietnam war was going on for many years before those peace loving fools started protesting it, by then we lost thousand apone thousand of good men. It was those long haired college boys who did not want to get drafted that got the idea to protest, to save their own lifes. Which is not a bad idea.
Folks were protesting the opperation liberation freedom mounths before it got started. Mostly by old hippie liberal dudes, community college drop outs, and simplton college babes that should shut up, Hollywreid actors, and the enemys with in. Just because your famouse does not mean that the words comming out of your mouth have value, or doest have effect on people. Sting, Rose' O, shut up!
You people could even pass a history test in grade school.
IQ of 70 I am not surprised!
Who was the first person to win an MTV VMA adward?
Name a battle from the french and indian wars?
Name the first person to be king,of the holly roman empire?
Name the sexest woman in america, alive, and under 25?
Easy question, I dought that you volk can't answer with out search on the internet or looking them up in books, but for mild MR it might be a hard thing to do.

John Creighton · 2004-09-21 22:11:54

Earthfirst sometimes you are like a little yappy poodle trying to take a bite out of someone Achilles tendon while the are riding a bike. Is there any point to saying Vietnam was a different war? Since it was different should we not try and learn from past experience? What is the point in pointing out that our knowledge is limited by the media available? What is the point of giving a few trivia questions that you happen to know? How do attacks on the intelligence of others enhance the quality of the conversation or improve your argument? Since you ask who one the MTV MVA, I ask who one the much music MVA.

Name the sexest woman in america, alive, and under 25?

Oviously your girlfriend right?

Trebuchet · 2004-09-22 13:04:01

What I would consider 'another Vietnam': Thousands of aging boomers having a flashback to their youth and annoying me ceaselessly with pointless slogans, mindless protests, and the general dung-tossing antics of the extreme leftist drugged by their own rhetoric.

In other words, I believe that this is 'another Vietnam', in the sense that I am severely annoyed by grandstanding leftists. Happily, their time has passed, and the war will be won.

Earthfirst · 2004-09-22 13:27:05

Sexest woman in america under 25 is jessica simpson of crouse, then her little sisiter Ashly simpson.
Medona was one the first to when a vma, also jim kerry.
Informantion for information sake is the only reason to live for!
Don't get me started on the ecological differces of the mid east verses vietnam! that could take hours from my day.

SpaceNut · 2004-09-22 13:52:29

In current day Iraq it would be when the number of terrorist numbers match very closely that of all other troops that are there to bring in democracy.

John Creighton · 2004-09-22 16:14:47

Sexest woman in america under 25 is jessica simpson of crous

She asks to much like a ditz and that ruins it a little.

John Creighton · 2004-09-22 16:17:34

Medona was one the first to when a vma, also jim kerry.

Jim Kerry? He is comedian not a musician. The MTV VMA must be a fairly new award because videos have been around longer the Madonna.

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#1 2004-09-20 12:26:17

Re: What would you consider another Vietnam

#2 2004-09-20 12:44:47

Re: What would you consider another Vietnam

#3 2004-09-20 13:04:48

Re: What would you consider another Vietnam

#4 2004-09-20 13:11:23

Re: What would you consider another Vietnam

#5 2004-09-20 13:20:08

Re: What would you consider another Vietnam

#6 2004-09-20 13:25:48

Re: What would you consider another Vietnam

#7 2004-09-20 13:30:27

Re: What would you consider another Vietnam

#8 2004-09-20 13:31:41

Re: What would you consider another Vietnam

#9 2004-09-20 13:34:38

Re: What would you consider another Vietnam

#10 2004-09-20 13:39:36

Re: What would you consider another Vietnam

#11 2004-09-20 13:43:59

Re: What would you consider another Vietnam

#12 2004-09-20 13:49:38

Re: What would you consider another Vietnam

#13 2004-09-20 14:00:13

Re: What would you consider another Vietnam

#14 2004-09-20 14:06:51

Re: What would you consider another Vietnam

#15 2004-09-20 14:49:57

Re: What would you consider another Vietnam

#16 2004-09-20 15:57:14

Re: What would you consider another Vietnam

#17 2004-09-20 15:59:06

Re: What would you consider another Vietnam

#18 2004-09-21 17:42:10

Re: What would you consider another Vietnam

#19 2004-09-21 21:30:42

Re: What would you consider another Vietnam

#20 2004-09-21 22:11:54

Re: What would you consider another Vietnam

#21 2004-09-22 13:04:01

Re: What would you consider another Vietnam

#22 2004-09-22 13:27:05

Re: What would you consider another Vietnam

#23 2004-09-22 13:52:29

Re: What would you consider another Vietnam

#24 2004-09-22 16:14:47

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#25 2004-09-22 16:17:34

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