The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

dicktice · 2004-09-19 17:29:29

It all depends on what you mean, by "robots on the Moon." Not a trivial observation, if you take it seriously--as in: How long do you expect to wait for the "robots" to be developed, and (regardong the out-and-back signal time lag) to what degree autonomous?

comstar03 · 2004-09-19 18:09:48

Robots on the Moon -

Well, for me , I would think that it means, you build the robots that can pack down then you send them to the moon, and when unpacked they survey the moon, and commence development of a moonbase. But before you, send the robots to the moon, you need to build a transfer vehicle to send cargo to the moon and return to earth for refueling and re-supply of more cargo for the lunar surface for the robots to unpack and assemble.

Again, Again, not one action but a series of events that build a total strategy for a goal or process. From earth - one-way cargo drones, sent to earth orbit are collected, the cargo pods attached to transfer vehicle and launched to the moon, when arriving deposit cargo pods to the surface in landing zone - the automated assembly teams disassemble cargo pods and utilize cargo into moonbase development, while transfer vehicle returns to earth orbit.

When base is complete and tested then humans arrive to go to the next step, for humanity in space.

quasar777 · 2004-09-19 21:20:37

what is the timeframe for this? i`d think a human mission during this phase would be in danger if something went wrong. my vote goes for the telerobotic plan. consider it as: John Henry utilizes Steamhammer, rather than versus. i`d rather take pride in building it myself than a machine doing it. it just seems too mutually exclusive to me.

Rxke · 2004-09-20 02:02:38

Phase one: human tended... So only occasional visits by 'supervising' humans, who do on the spot repairs etc if necc...

If something breaks down catastrophically, too bad... You just wait 'till the next expedition goes up.

Astronaut-genie troops kinda people

Grypd · 2004-09-20 03:57:27

It all depends on what you mean, by "robots on the Moon." Not a trivial observation, if you take it seriously--as in: How long do you expect to wait for the "robots" to be developed, and (regardong the out-and-back signal time lag) to what degree autonomous?

The robots should be telerobotic controlled and not autonomous as we still do not have the skill and technology for that to operate effectively without constant Human tinkering. Telerobotic robots should be built tough and interchangable with the ability to operate on them telerobotically when we have a problem with one. We use telerobotics to operate on People and if we can do that we can have telerobotic mechanics. When we use the robots we will take certain precautions to ensure if a robot fails. One is when surveying or sending robots away from the group we use a buddy system so if one gets stuck or made inoperative then its friend can recover it or call for help to do so.

Time lag between here and the Moon is about 4 seconds which is a minor problem but we will reduce the speeds of the robots to reduce accidents and have really well trained operatives to ensure this problem this does not happen.
Other options are to have collision warning systems that will ensure vehicles do not collide with large and moving objects.

The technology to make these robots is already here it will not take much lead time to develop them. It only requires political will and resources to push this program forward.

RobS · 2004-09-20 04:13:09

You also have to consider what "base construction" means and how much robotic work really is needed. For example, a major portion of the base will be a hab for the astronauts. It can be launched from Earth fully installed, or if inflatable technology is used, it can be inflated in Earth orbit. If one lands it in a place lacking major boulders--not too difficult, most of the moon is covered with gravel set in beach sand--one could inflate it in place, or possibly the landing vehicle could reserve 50 meters per second so that it could perform a few short hops to move to a better location. The hab would not have to be buried before the astronauts arrived. They could finalize its location and bury it using simple regolith-moving equipment themselves. Presumably they could add other inflatables to the initial unit as well. Robots wouldn't be needed.

Refueling vehicles similarly could be done with minimal robotic assistance. A telerobotic regolith moving vehicle would be needed. It could have a nuclear reactor built in, and all the regolith processing equipment. It would trundle back to the vehicle with lunar water (if it's processing icy regolith) or liquid oxygen (if it's processing ilmenite). It would have to control a fuel transfer pipe, and be able to dock and lock the pipe in place.

I suspect the ability to perform even routine maintenance on such a vehicle telerobotically would be pretty limited right now. It sounds like plugging a series of new modules into Hubble will cost $1.5 billion if done by robots. We'd need to spend half as much as the entire moon-Mars program to develop advanced repair ability, and the money's not there. But in another decade or two, private industry will have developed lots of technologies for remote repair on Earth, and they could be applicable on the moon and Mars. Maybe then an autonomous moon base would be possible.

-- RobS

SpaceNut · 2004-09-20 05:27:22

So we want to use robotically controlled devices to mining and to prepare any lunar base area.

First I know of no such electrical or otherwise powered; bull dozers, backhoes and other Earth moving equipment currently in creation.

Also taking tons of digital mapping photos is a useless step, if we are preparing any site for a base to be placed at.

Doing a rover style probe to search for water or other needed chemical presence is a must but other than that why wait for things to be developed.

Never would I have thought that posting of this topic on Aug. 19 2004 would have yielded so much discusion and there is yet so much more to talk of still.

SpaceNut · 2004-09-20 11:01:41

Well I found some Earth moving equipment but it is manned. Page also covers space suits and more.

http://www.nasa.gov/vision/space/prepar … trats.html

SpaceNut · 2004-09-20 12:42:31

Lunar soil covered inflatable base

http://www.space.com/php....golith.

Grypd · 2004-09-20 17:28:44

So we want to use robotically controlled devices to mining and to prepare any lunar base area.
First I know of no such electrical or otherwise powered; bull dozers, backhoes and other Earth moving equipment currently in creation.
Also taking tons of digital mapping photos is a useless step, if we are preparing any site for a base to be placed at.
Doing a rover style probe to search for water or other needed chemical presence is a must but other than that why wait for things to be developed.
Never would I have thought that posting of this topic on Aug. 19 2004 would have yielded so much discusion and there is yet so much more to talk of still.

We dont use these vehicles on Earth, we dont have to. But the Moon and beyond is Not the Earth an astronaut in a suit is not as effective as a Robot. A robot does not need to carry his air on his back and since Man is designed for Earth is a lot more stable too. If we have a robot damaged so what we get it fixed, If we have a suit damaged then we have lost a Man. Another thing to point out is that our Earth moving gear as used on Earth will likely be of limited use as it is designed to operate on Earth gravity conditions. The Moon and Mars will likely show that new techniques will have to be developed. Will we use rotating brushes to collect material or drag lines certainly our idea of Earth movers rely on the down force of there weight to be able to get the Earth moved up and not shooting out of the bucket when dug up.

Base construction is not just a matter of making places for the astronauts to sleep. It is of providing power, heat, light, food and of course Air and water. Power means making solar cells and then distributing them. If we put Solar cells on one of the almost permanently lighted peaks of the Moon then we can use telerobots almost 24/7. Extra power will be gained by networks of this solar power cells going east and west. With power air can be made using lunar materials and by heating those craters where we have detected Hydrogen hopefully we get water.

Telerobotics allow this to be done at costs that are possible. If we try to get it done using people then there is no way it will happen, we have to face that. We cannot afford to send people to do these jobs the technology base we have is not enough without real heavy financial and personel costs. We can send people to the Moon but with little supplies. To get more supplies means another flight. In telerobotics the main cost is the flight and that does not need to come back. They are purely one way trips.

comstar03 · 2004-09-20 22:18:05

Grypd,

I agree, the robots don't need to come back to earth, they can stay and build on the moon, keep expanding the industrial complex on the planet. It will take some time to create all the components ( infrastructure ) that we need for the continuing expansion of humanity in space.

Once the primary / core elements of the moonbase are complete the you bring scientists and other prority professional to the moon and continue to expand.

SpaceNut · 2017-03-15 18:33:51

I can see that I need to fix the artifacts and shifting within the topic.

The start of why we are going back to the Moon for GW and others....

SpaceNut · 2019-01-01 16:50:18

I new even back in 2004 (first of 3 topics of moon direct) that we needed a direct plan for going to the moon and its now 2019 with a possible low cost version there in for 3 Falcon9 heavy launches to get it started and continuing with insiotu resource use.

SpaceNut · 2024-03-17 17:01:36

I knew that going would require getting to a plan that was not beating around the bush, but we have been in a loop of planning and then replanning to go to the first step of the moon first.

Back then we had a 300 post limit

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#301 2004-09-19 17:29:29

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#302 2004-09-19 18:09:48

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#303 2004-09-19 21:20:37

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#304 2004-09-20 02:02:38

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#305 2004-09-20 03:57:27

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#306 2004-09-20 04:13:09

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#307 2004-09-20 05:27:22

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#308 2004-09-20 11:01:41

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#309 2004-09-20 12:42:31

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#310 2004-09-20 17:28:44

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#311 2004-09-20 22:18:05

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#312 2017-03-15 18:33:51

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