Genesis, Stardust, Etc.: Snag & Bag

Palomar · 2004-09-11 09:15:57

http://www.spaceflightnow.com]Spaceflightnow.com

...is hosting everything (it seems) relative to Genesis, in the left-hand column of its main web page. Not sure how long they'll keep all the information front page, but thought I'd point it out. Video (including original animation, slow-motion of the crash), photos, etc.

--Cindy :up:

Rxke · 2004-09-11 11:32:13

http://www.spacedaily.com/2004/04091023 … ml]Rejoice!

I guess this will bring a big smile on a lot of folks faces...

Palomar · 2004-09-11 12:55:00

http://www.spacedaily.com/2004/04091023 … ml]Rejoice!
I guess this will bring a big smile on a lot of folks faces...

*Thanks for the article, Rik.

Not sure about my smile now (the 2nd link is a large photo which downloaded quickly):

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/genes … .html]Some new pics from NASA archives

http://www.genesismission.org/images/ge … g]Precious little bits

Not sure what to think. ::sigh:: Wish it were me working on the recovery and etc. This mission has been special to me since I first read about it, and especially now. My optimism fluctuates (understatement!), with a good dose of guardedness from the blow of further disappointment.

--Cindy

John Creighton · 2004-09-11 14:17:17

Forgive my naivety but can’t they measure the composition of the sun from the spectrum it emits. What additional information will the stardust yield?

Palomar · 2004-09-11 14:46:18

*Hi John:

Think "solar wind collection." Origins of the Solar System, exact (or near-to) composition of the Sun (hoping to slay some theories)...

PDS format:

http://www.genesismission.org/mission/f … 04.pdf]FAQ, Facts Sheet

http://www.genesismission.org/science/i … ml]Science "building blocks" of the mission (erm...that portion of nebula pictured above the "Origin of the Solar System" link isn't anywhere near our Solar System... )

http://www.genesismission.org/]Mission home page

*It's nearly my weekend (1 hour to go). Space.com has archives pertaining to the story/details of the mission as well. Hope that helps. Times like these, I wish I were a professional scientist.

--Cindy

::EDIT:: (previous post info):

"The mission's main priority is to measure oxygen isotopes to determine which of several theories is correct regarding the role of oxygen in the formation of the solar system. Scientists hope to determine this with isotopes collected in the four target segments of the solar wind concentrator carried by the Genesis spacecraft.
'From our initial look, we can see that two of the four concentrator segments are in place, and all four may be intact,' Wiens said.
The mission's second priority is to analyze nitrogen isotopes that will help understand how the atmospheres of the planets in our solar system evolved. 'These isotopes will be analyzed using gold foil, which we have also found intact,' Wiens said.

John Creighton · 2004-09-11 14:52:46

::EDIT:: Opinion Dr. Jeff Bell. Seems he's saddened over the Genesis mishap. He also makes some scathing remarks about certain people and other planned sample-return missions.
Then this: "NASA officials are putting up the usual false front, claiming that useful data may still be extracted from the breached and dust-filled capsule...No scientist worth his salt will trust any supposed data that might be published from this mission."

Some other quotes:

The biggest victim of the Genesis crash is Mars Sample Return. The astrobiology crowd has just been blown up by their own petard. For the last 15 years they have encouraged people to believe that live alien germs are likely to survive on Mars.

I wonder....

Prions are not just a hypothetical threat in the wake of the "Mad Cow Disease" debacle. All over the USA, farm herds are being tested for this disease that scientists and government officials assured us: 1) could never infect humans, 2) could never spread from the UK to North America, and 3)

Well Mad Cow is certianly not civilization ending

In Zubrin's more insane rantings, he actually implies that any concern for the possibility of a devastating Mad Martian epidemic is a sign of the very cultural decadence he detects in the modern West, which is his reason for establishing a new Utopian society on Mars.

I bet this guy is not friends with Zubrin.

http://www.spacedaily.com/news/oped-04z … d-04z.html

Palomar · 2004-09-13 13:09:07

http://www.universetoday.com/am/publish … 004]Update...

*Sounding very optimistic now. Asserting what is salvageable from Genesis will keep scientists busy for a long time.

"NASA scientists have been analyzing the wreckage, and found enough is intact that they should be able to achieve most of their scientific objectives - enough samples of the Sun's solar wind have survived to keep the scientific community busy for a long time."

I hope so.

Ticks me off, though, that the article says Genesis slammed into Earth at a rate of "hundreds of km per hour." The last and highest figure I saw was 193 miles per hour...

Wish they'd get their facts straight or not comment at all. There's a big difference between 193 MILES per hour versus hundreds of kilometers per hour. :rant: And then they wonder why laypeople get so easily confused. :rant:

But I'm still very unhappy about the incident so grumble, grumble...

--Cindy

SBird · 2004-09-13 14:31:20

While I do agree and sympathize with you, technically, 300 km/h *is* hundreds of km an hour.

Palomar · 2004-09-13 16:21:33

*Hi SBird. Yes. I didn't word that too well, did I? -frown- It simply gets a bit exasperating, though, when they switch units of measurement on top of not seeming to get the facts straight. It's just a pet peeve of mine. I read lots of astronomy/space exploration articles and too often I see inconsistencies (even major ones) from one article to the next.

Use miles or use kilometers (quit interchanging them!) and get the numbers right.

--Cindy :;):

Palomar · 2004-09-16 05:18:11

http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/ma … tml]ICAMSR group speaking up

*Deals with aftermath of Genesis crash, Stardust still to return...and concerns about back-contamination of a Mars sample return suffering a similar fate. ICAMSR is adamantly opposed to bringing Mars samples to Earth; pushing for Lunar facilities for that purpose.

--Cindy

Shaun Barrett · 2004-09-16 07:56:40

Well well ... ICAMSR (International Committee Against Mars Sample Return)!!
The 'Genesis' mishap has 'em coming out of the woodwork, doesn't it?! What a bunch of benighted primitives they must be, frustrated that burning witches is against the law these days. I wonder if their windows are decked with cloves of garlic to ward off vampires, too?

The words of Wendell Mendell, Manager of the Office for Human Exploration Science at NASA's Johnson Space Center (JSC) in Houston, Texas, were a welcome and invigorating breath of fresh air after the nauseating aroma of all the BS coming from ICAMSR!
Dr. Mendell said he is open to being persuaded that there is a real danger to bringing back a "Martian something" that could disrupt the Earth. He went on to say:-

But I have never heard any argument based on logic and/or science that caused me to increase my personal concern. There is every reason to believe that 'Martian somethings' have landed on Earth with regularity.

(My italics)

Bravo, Dr. Mendell! :up:

I make this post, incidentally, not because I want an MSR mission. An MSR mission will take years and cost billions and might return some dirt from one place on Mars. Or, it might take decades and cost tens of billions if you want dirt from half a dozen places on Mars. All that time and all that money would be far better spent on Mars Direct (or a derivative thereof) so that astronauts can give us a comprehensive evaluation of the surface geology, drill into the crust for cores of rock strata and subsurface water, and examine any life-forms found.
I agree with Dr. Mendell. There's no reason to believe Mars has anything biological that we don't have here on Earth. The danger to astronauts on Mars is infinitesimal, vanishingly small, ... effectively ZILCH!
If that kind of risk is still too great for today's bureaucrats and spineless politicians, if you can't find astronauts prepared to take that minuscule risk, then the human race is already finished; a dead man walking!
:bars:

Palomar · 2004-09-16 14:08:00

Well well ... ICAMSR (International Committee Against Mars Sample Return)!!

*I don't recall ever having heard of them before. Have you, Shaun?

The 'Genesis' mishap has 'em coming out of the woodwork, doesn't it?!

*I'll say. :-\

I wonder if their windows are decked with cloves of garlic to ward off vampires, too?

*They'd better leave Barnabas alone! Whoops...my Dark Shadows fandom coming into play here. -laugh- Funny comment about witches too.

Dr. Mendell said he is open to being persuaded that there is a real danger to bringing back a "Martian something" that could disrupt the Earth. He went on to say:-
Quote
But I have never heard any argument based on logic and/or science that caused me to increase my personal concern. There is every reason to believe that 'Martian somethings' have landed on Earth with regularity.
(My italics)
Bravo, Dr. Mendell!

*I agree. Methinks the ICAMSR (and similar camps) doth protest too much.

If that kind of risk is still too great for today's bureaucrats and spineless politicians, if you can't find astronauts prepared to take that minuscule risk, then the human race is already finished; a dead man walking!

*Yep. Too much apathy out there. As important as all this stuff is to me, it's still sometimes difficult to remind one's self how UNimportant it is to so many others.

--Cindy

Shaun Barrett · 2004-09-16 19:58:08

No, Cindy, I hadn't heard of them before I read that article. However, I'm quite sure they'll become the focus of a potent media circus involving a scare campaign; a kind of bio-hazard version of "The sky is falling, the sky is falling .. !!"

My God! Are there no depths to which these Luddites won't sink in their attempts to stifle humanity's future?!! Some of these people are ostensibly scientists and yet it seems they're quite prepared to skew the facts in whatever way it takes to further their position on space exploration. (Shades of the environazi movement, which is actually far more interested in politics than demonstrable facts about the environment.)
We all know how easily led the majority of people can be when it comes to space. The totally incorrect and baseless argument that we should spend money solving social problems here on Earth before we worry about exploring our solar system is already trotted out by the tut-tutting naysayers at every opportunity. Now these self-serving, politically motivated neanderthals will be able to throw the fantasmagorical concept of back contamination by lethal martian bacteria into the fray! It's a perfect angle for the anti-progress brigade - I can see the usual rent-a-crowd suspects now, placards held high, chanting in the streets that we're all going to die of 'Arean AIDS'!

The reason I'm getting hot under the collar about all this stuff lately is that I think it's shaping up as a potentially serious threat to the aspirations of the Mars Society and other space advocacy groups. I can almost hear the wheels turning out there. I feel that we're just beginning to see the vague outline, the tip of the iceberg, of what will become a well orchestrated anti-space campaign.
It's got me worried and I don't like it one little bit! :bars2:

Palomar · 2004-09-17 06:09:01

The totally incorrect and baseless argument that we should spend money solving social problems here on Earth before we worry about exploring our solar system is already trotted out by the tut-tutting naysayers at every opportunity. Now these self-serving, politically motivated neanderthals will be able to throw the fantasmagorical concept of back contamination by lethal martian bacteria into the fray!
...
The reason I'm getting hot under the collar about all this stuff lately is that I think it's shaping up as a potentially serious threat to the aspirations of the Mars Society and other space advocacy groups. I can almost hear the wheels turning out there. I feel that we're just beginning to see the vague outline, the tip of the iceberg, of what will become a well orchestrated anti-space campaign.
It's got me worried and I don't like it one little bit! :bars2:

*Yep. Not sure you should insult Neaderthals though, in your comparison. :;):

http://www.spaceflightnow.com/genesis/0 … .html]More news...

*I get a mix of optimism and that heart-sinking feeling again, when looking at photos like those in the article. Apparently expectations of obtainable science continues to rise. Highlights:

"At present, the science canister that holds the majority of the mission's scientific samples is lying upside down - on its lid. Scientists are very methodically working their way 'up' from the bottom portion of the canister by trimming away small portions of the canister's wall.

The team continues to extract, from the interior of the science canister, small but potentially analyzable fragments of collector array material. One-half of a sapphire wafer was collected Tuesday - the biggest piece of collector array to date."

*Good luck. :-\ ::fingers crossed::

--Cindy

Rxke · 2004-09-17 12:19:07

Drool...

This *so* looks like a job for me...

Serious. I love to do stuff like that: painstakingly salvaging fragile stuff...

Palomar · 2004-09-18 08:31:02

Drool...
This *so* looks like a job for me...
Serious. I love to do stuff like that: painstakingly salvaging fragile stuff...

*I hope they keep it all in Utah, if that is feasible (on-site analysis capabilities, facility issues, etc). Apparently they're still considering shipping the samples to Houston but are "staying put" in Utah for now. I'd be concerned about another mishap of some sort.

--Cindy

Rxke · 2004-09-18 08:39:19

Agree completely: transporting of fragile stuff is the single most biggest riskfactor of things going wrong: vibration, temp and humidity fluctuations, errors in handling etc... (what a construction, hope you get the idea..)

Always better do do such stuff in-situ, if you have the tools and environmental controls etc in place...

Palomar · 2004-09-20 20:56:58

http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=14005]1st status report from Genesis Mishap Investigation Board

*GMIB members arrived at Dugway on September 10. Mentions drogue and parafoil systems failed to deploy.

"Since the initial recovery of the hardware, an inventory was made of the impact crater, both by visual examination and metal detector, to ensure no significant wreckage remains."

*Impact crater site is now back under DPG's control.

"The team finalized plans for preparing and transporting the SRC wreckage to Lockheed Martin Space Systems' facilities in Denver, where the spacecraft was built and tested."

*No mention is made of moving the samples themselves, so it seems the samples are staying put (for now anyway) in Utah. :up:

--Cindy

Palomar · 2004-09-22 06:16:47

http://www.spaceflightnow.com/news/n040 … Optimistic scientist

*Short article outlining Dr. (?) Qing-Zhu Yin's opinion of what data scientists might likely obtain from what's left of the solar wind collector wafers. He's a planetary scientist.

--Cindy

SpaceNut · 2004-09-22 08:06:40

Genesis craft to be hauled back home
Jeffco facility to study why capsule crashed

http://rockymountainnews.com/drmn....00.html

Shaun Barrett · 2004-09-22 08:21:24

Yes, there are some optimistic noises coming from scientists about the Genesis data which might yet be saved. I read somewhere, though, that the most unreliable data were likely to be those connected with carbon isotopes, since significant carbon contamination from the desert dust and even from the atmosphere would make those experimental results too ambiguous.
But, overall, it looks like at least some of the mission is salvageable.

SpaceNut · 2004-09-24 07:02:54

It appears that the Samples From Genesis Craft are being Sent to Calif.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm....apsules

Palomar · 2004-09-24 07:24:17

It appears that the Samples From Genesis Craft are being Sent to Calif.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s … ...apsules

*Yep. Portions of the lid foils.

"The team started disassembling the arrays and found that several large pieces of collector plates remained, including one entire hexagon plate." Relief! Terrific.

Article also indicates the solar wind collectors -will- be shipped out of Utah. I wonder how many scientists around the globe, who were expecting portions, won't be getting any though, because of the mishap.

--Cindy

::EDIT:: They -are- going to be moved: "The Genesis cleanroom activities are focused on getting the materials ready for shipping. A date has not yet been selected for transporting the Genesis science canister and recovered collector materials from Dugway to NASA's Johnson Space Center in Houston."

Palomar · 2004-10-01 06:01:11

http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.htm … 88]Samples going to Houston

*They're also saying they are a long way yet from "quantifying" the samples.

Sounds iffy...they seem overly optimistic and "cheery"; we'll see.

"Packing solar samples for transport is a little different than packing a house-worth of belongings for a cross-country move. After the meticulous process of inspection and documentation, each segment of collector gets its own ID number, photograph and carrying case. The samples and shipping containers fill the space of about two full size refrigerators."

--Cindy

Palomar · 2004-10-07 05:00:22

http://www.spacedaily.com/news/genesis-04u.html]Most recent update.

***
Wafers that were still connected to the retaining rings fared the best, while "those that were on the edge of the canister impact are pretty dusty."

...The sample return capsule lid foil collectors, which collected molybdenum and platinum to measure solar wind radioactive nuclei, were contaminated and rumpled.

Stansbery says they probably will be able to make the samples available to the scientific community in a few months, but first all the materials will have to be cleaned. Since cleaning could damage the atom-sized samples of solar wind embedded in the collectors at a depth of about a hundred nanometers, they won't begin that task until after the samples are moved to JSC.

"We have a variety of different contaminant sources on the collector materials," says Stansbery. "Everything from Utah Range soil, to salts from the soil, to pieces of the sample return capsule itself, pieces of the science canister itself, insulation materials that were on the spacecraft, to fragments of the other collectors. For any particular collector, any of those items can be a contaminant."
***

Geez.

--Cindy

P.S.: Update at NASA Genesis home site says samples were moved to Houston on Monday, October 4.

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#26 2004-09-11 09:15:57

Re: Genesis, Stardust, Etc.: Snag & Bag

#27 2004-09-11 11:32:13

Re: Genesis, Stardust, Etc.: Snag & Bag

#28 2004-09-11 12:55:00

Re: Genesis, Stardust, Etc.: Snag & Bag

#29 2004-09-11 14:17:17

Re: Genesis, Stardust, Etc.: Snag & Bag

#30 2004-09-11 14:46:18

Re: Genesis, Stardust, Etc.: Snag & Bag

#31 2004-09-11 14:52:46

Re: Genesis, Stardust, Etc.: Snag & Bag

#32 2004-09-13 13:09:07

Re: Genesis, Stardust, Etc.: Snag & Bag

#33 2004-09-13 14:31:20

Re: Genesis, Stardust, Etc.: Snag & Bag

#34 2004-09-13 16:21:33

Re: Genesis, Stardust, Etc.: Snag & Bag

#35 2004-09-16 05:18:11

Re: Genesis, Stardust, Etc.: Snag & Bag

#36 2004-09-16 07:56:40

Re: Genesis, Stardust, Etc.: Snag & Bag

#37 2004-09-16 14:08:00

Re: Genesis, Stardust, Etc.: Snag & Bag

#38 2004-09-16 19:58:08

Re: Genesis, Stardust, Etc.: Snag & Bag

#39 2004-09-17 06:09:01

Re: Genesis, Stardust, Etc.: Snag & Bag

#40 2004-09-17 12:19:07

Re: Genesis, Stardust, Etc.: Snag & Bag

#41 2004-09-18 08:31:02

Re: Genesis, Stardust, Etc.: Snag & Bag

#42 2004-09-18 08:39:19

Re: Genesis, Stardust, Etc.: Snag & Bag

#43 2004-09-20 20:56:58

Re: Genesis, Stardust, Etc.: Snag & Bag

#44 2004-09-22 06:16:47

Re: Genesis, Stardust, Etc.: Snag & Bag

#45 2004-09-22 08:06:40

Re: Genesis, Stardust, Etc.: Snag & Bag

#46 2004-09-22 08:21:24

Re: Genesis, Stardust, Etc.: Snag & Bag

#47 2004-09-24 07:02:54

Re: Genesis, Stardust, Etc.: Snag & Bag

#48 2004-09-24 07:24:17

Re: Genesis, Stardust, Etc.: Snag & Bag

#49 2004-10-01 06:01:11

Re: Genesis, Stardust, Etc.: Snag & Bag

#50 2004-10-07 05:00:22

Re: Genesis, Stardust, Etc.: Snag & Bag

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