The Succession of Empires - Mars will trump the U.S.

Josh Cryer · 2003-08-13 17:19:05

Gennaro, oh, that's even worse than a playground full of bullies. At least in a playground full of bullies you have the potential for equilibrium (ie, no one bothers anyone because everyone is equally annoying and it's just too much trouble). Much like how nukes have kept the larger nations from attacking one another.

A world ?without bullies? wouldn't be an angelic world, it would merely be a world where bullies don't gain anything from being bullies. Where bullies are so ineffectual they can be ignored.

Socrates · 2004-09-02 16:15:16

A noble theory and given the fact that history repeats itself because "History is a mirror of human nature (my own personal saying)" it is probably true. However this could also mean that Mars might then make colonies which would, in turn, overthrow Mars. Of course I may be getting ahead of history but then again so were many others who forsaw the future (and I'm not talking about Nostradamus or any other "prophet" I'm talking about people like Jules Verne)

smurf975 · 2004-09-03 14:11:36

hey, your talking aboutmy Marine brothers, you better watch what your saying. If i do remember correctly we liberated the Afghanis' from a tyrant and are in the hunt of another one right now...

If I say that I'm a Tyrant will you give me a billion bucks and a island to retire too?

smurf975 · 2004-09-03 14:20:10

I can count on one hand all the former colonies on Earth that are doing really well. Hint: they are all Anglo-Saxon colonies***

So who says that Mars will be a power monger in the future as so few colonies on Earth are that today. Well most of them are pretty much poor compared to western standards.

***
Canada
USA
Australia
New Zealand

Mundaka · 2004-09-11 23:07:16

Morris · 2004-09-13 09:21:30

I can count on one hand all the former colonies on Earth that are doing really well. Hint: they are all Anglo-Saxon colonies***
So who says that Mars will be a power monger in the future as so few colonies on Earth are that today. Well most of them are pretty much poor compared to western standards.
***
Canada
USA
Australia
New Zealand

You forgot Singapore, which, though it was a former Anglo-Saxon colony has an ethnic Chinese majority and a racially fairly balanced government.

Morris · 2004-09-14 08:04:53

Oh, and you also forgot Taiwan which was a Japanese colony for some time before WWII and became a nationalist Chinese one after Japan lost the war.

Thomas Martianson · 2005-06-25 13:08:33

The History being discussed here is that of Western Civilization which has always been more dynamic that Eastern Civilization.
Mars will eventually outstrip the Earth because it is a clean slate. Here on Earth; monied interests have institutionalized certain technologies even though they are years obsolete (on paper anyway). Mars will not have such technological institutions and monopolies to deal with. New ideas will have free reign to be explored and developed.
The argument that Earth will always be more powerful due to its established infrastructure and availability of resources is utterly defeated by the history of the US.
Europe had more established infrastructure than the American wilderness, but look what happened. Ideas were freed from the establishment and the colony quickly eclipsed the parent society. Mars will be the same but even more so.
Being somewhat paranoid and prone to conspiratorial thinking, I sometimes beleive that it is due to just this very reason that humanity isn't spread halfway across the Solar System by now. The Think Tankers realized years ago; probably during the Apollo era that once people got a toehold out there, it would soon out-pace their ability to control it.
Hopefully, the Chinese will soon become a large enough threat to our supremacy in space that we will once again get off our asses and do something rather than just talk about it.

reddragon · 2005-06-25 13:16:17

Mars will not have such technological institutions and monopolies to deal with. New ideas will have free reign to be explored and developed.

I hope that's what happens. But it's certainly not the only possibility. We need to make sure that Mars is free, not crippled by too close ties to Earth.

Hopefully, the Chinese will soon become a large enough threat to our supremacy in space that we will once again get off our asses and do something rather than just talk about it.

Provided that something is do more space exploration, not declare war.

Thomas Martianson · 2005-06-26 12:00:57

[Provided that something is more exploration, not declare war]

Unfortunately for Humanity, the sad truth is that military endeavors have always been the Prime Mover of technological advance. If not for the war-dialectic of measure and counter-measure, man may not have even smelted ores for metallurgy.
In the current political environment, it is very unlikely that there will be much to the space budget other than the paltry sum it has struggled with for many years. The question the general public asks: what does that do for me? is not usually answered to their satisfaction.
The Chinese are the catalyst. They have openly stated that they plan to challenge us in space and even plan a military base on the Moon. With the potential developement of Lunar H3 fusion technology; allowing the Communist Chinese to monopolize Lunar resources will be unexceptable. National survival and future prosperity will be the impetus by which we get off our butts. The direction that that future will take will not please many of us; but the infrastructure established throughout the Earth-Moon System as a result of this impending space race will be a giant stepping stone to Mars and beyond.
As for the possibility of a Sino-American Lunar War? I doubt it; this will be a 2nd Cold War. Lots of posturing, lots of spying, lots of trying to undermine the others society from within. But the only way to keep it there is to keep up. The Soviets failed to keep up in the last Cold War. That is why they are gone.
Super-Powers don't openly fight one another due to Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD); they fight smaller proxy-wars with puppet states while looking for ways to avoid MAD and acheive victory; thus technological arms races.
Interplanetary imperialism would produce rival colonies that might be granted "independence" by their parent super-powers for the purpose of fighting proxy-wars in space, but neither side will let it escalate into full-blown war on Earth due to MAD.
Struggle; that is war and/or the preparation for war has been the engine of history. That is not likely to change because it is bound in human nature.
Do I advocate this? No. But I am a realist and I know from studying history that this is the way it is; like it or not.

Cobra Commander · 2005-06-27 08:37:00

Thomas Martianson, you've saved me a lengthy post.

Well said.

Palomar · 2005-06-27 09:01:16

*Um...if you don't advocate it then that means you'd approve of stagnation/stasis, right? If you disapprove of something ultimately beneficial in the long-term, then you automatically approve of its opposite.

???

--Cindy

Cobra Commander · 2005-06-27 09:19:32

If you disapprove of something ultimately beneficial in the long-term, then you automatically approve of its opposite.

Not necessarily. One can accept reality and not like it.

I do it all the time.

reddragon · 2005-06-28 09:18:40

As for the possibility of a Sino-American Lunar War? I doubt it; this will be a 2nd Cold War. Lots of posturing, lots of spying, lots of trying to undermine the others society from within. But the only way to keep it there is to keep up. The Soviets failed to keep up in the last Cold War. That is why they are gone.
Super-Powers don't openly fight one another due to Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD); they fight smaller proxy-wars with puppet states while looking for ways to avoid MAD and acheive victory; thus technological arms races.
Interplanetary imperialism would produce rival colonies that might be granted "independence" by their parent super-powers for the purpose of fighting proxy-wars in space, but neither side will let it escalate into full-blown war on Earth due to MAD.
Struggle; that is war and/or the preparation for war has been the engine of history. That is not likely to change because it is bound in human nature.
Do I advocate this? No. But I am a realist and I know from studying history that this is the way it is; like it or not.

MAD may help to deter wars between superpowers, but I don't think it's worth the risks. (i.e. destruction of civilization and possible humanity entirely) A large scale non-nuclear war like one of the World Wars is a terrible thing but it won't destroy everything the way nuclear war will. Besides what good does it really do you to know as you're dying that everyone else is dying also?

Realistically I suppose wars in space will be unavoidable, but we should try to deter them as much as possible. American-Chinese competition in space would be very useful, but it does not have to be militaristic. It can be based on national pride or on the race to claim as much territory as possible. Of course these things can lead to war, and considering what the leadership of boths countries is like it might well.

Cobra Commander · 2005-06-28 09:27:11

MAD may help to deter wars between superpowers, but I don't think it's worth the risks.

MAD isn't so much a policy as a social law. Two enemies will always try to outdo each other, when they both reach the point of being able to utterly destroy each other MAD comes into play on its own.

The alternative is to press every advantage as soon as you get it. Get nukes before the other guy, nuke 'em before he can.

clark · 2005-06-28 09:39:59

MAD only works if everyone is playing the same game.

It fails as a policy, or a social law, if the end result is acceptable to one or more parties.

"I kill you, you kill me" works on the assumption that neither entity wants to, or accepts death. If one does, well...

Commodore · 2005-06-28 10:01:19

It should be noted that China does not yet have the deployed assets to made MAD a reality. They have at most a couple dozen single warhead ICBMs.

Really I expect some kind of trigger (Taiwan most likely) well before we are sparring with Chinamen on the Moon. If within the next 10 years or so, theres no question as to how it will end, in the destruction of the PLA and the commies overthrown by diehard capitalists and their workers who want there to be something left with which to make a living with when its over.

As for the succession of empires, the US will probably be the first to reliquish its power to a greater western democratic bloc.

Fledi · 2005-06-29 05:27:32

MAD only works if everyone is playing the same game.
It fails as a policy, or a social law, if the end result is acceptable to one or more parties.
"I kill you, you kill me" works on the assumption that neither entity wants to, or accepts death. If one does, well...

And we all know that this goes not for wars of religion, which is why I'm somewhat pessimistic about the future on Earth in the long run.

srmeaney · 2005-07-21 23:48:02

That could be one reason China is looking at the construction of over thirty nuclear reactors to power its future.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2024-06-02 16:24:51

Would a new established nation on the Moon or Mars outlive nations on Earth

North Korea's latest satellites rely on Russian technical assistance, experts say
https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international … 068_4.html

Arrests of Russian generals and officials raises questions about Putin's war machine
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/arrests-russi … 18762.html

Britain’s no longer a serious nation and we’re not serious about ﬁxing it
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/4aa5 … mment-text

an old and better described very old topic, a channel I think he's an Ex-Pat moved to Japan, maybe from the US note sure, Felix Lace, better known online as Black Pigeon Speaks or BPS a culture channel then gave up on the USA or Western? idea from overseas he turns into a political, social commentary media channel

'Is a Second Civil War INEVITABLE?'

https://www.bitchute.com/video/jCogKGV2NDw/

Sergei Krikalev the last Soviet citizen to go to space
https://www.historynet.com/cosmonaut-se … t-citizen/
'representing a country that no longer existed.'

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2024-06-03 02:03:03)

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#26 2003-08-13 17:19:05

Re: The Succession of Empires - Mars will trump the U.S.

#27 2004-09-02 16:15:16

Re: The Succession of Empires - Mars will trump the U.S.

#28 2004-09-03 14:11:36

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#29 2004-09-03 14:20:10

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#30 2004-09-11 23:07:16

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#31 2004-09-13 09:21:30

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#32 2004-09-14 08:04:53

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#33 2005-06-25 13:08:33

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#34 2005-06-25 13:16:17

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#35 2005-06-26 12:00:57

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#36 2005-06-27 08:37:00

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#37 2005-06-27 09:01:16

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#38 2005-06-27 09:19:32

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#39 2005-06-28 09:18:40

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#40 2005-06-28 09:27:11

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#41 2005-06-28 09:39:59

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#42 2005-06-28 10:01:19

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#43 2005-06-29 05:27:32

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#44 2005-07-21 23:48:02

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