Marriage at 13 - Is this adaptive on Mars?

Scott G. Beach · 2002-09-07 18:33:09

An article in The Salt Lake Tribune (June 24, 2002) reports that the government of Iran has increased "the minimum marriage age from 9 to 13 for girls and from 14 to 15 for boys. The law stipulates that marriage of girls under 13 and boys under 15 will require court permission..."

What should the law be on Mars? People will be exposed to much higher levels of ionizing radiation due to the extremely thin atmosphere of Mars. Does it therefore make sense to recommend that young people reproduce at as young an age as biologically possible?

Scott G. Beach

Phobos · 2002-09-07 22:38:49

Disturbing topic. Even though there will be more radiation on Mars it might not necessarily affect the residents to such a degree that they should have children practically before they're teenagers. After all they will probably be spending most of their time behind the walls of well shielded structures. And having children so young will interfere drastically with the education and thus the future of such a colony. And it used to be that 9 year olds could get married in Iran? I know Clark is going to accuse me of being a "cultural imperialist" but it'd be nice if they could grow up first! And since Clark might ask "when is one grown up" I'll just answer in advance that 20ish is a good age! (now prepares to defend why 20ish as opposed to 15ish is a good age.)

Scott G. Beach · 2002-09-07 23:42:20

And having children so young will interfere drastically with the education and thus the future of such a colony.

Phobos:

I disagree with your assumption that early marriage and childbearing "will interfere drastically with the education and thus the future of" a Martian settlement.

We Westerners have made a lot of trouble for ourselves by creating a social system that is not synchronized with our biology. We have thus created the "problems" of premarital sexual intercourse and children being born outside of marriage. We should not transplant these problems to Mars. We can and should build Martian settlements where it possible for people to marry and reproduce in their early teens and still go to school and acquire the skills that they will need to maintain a high-tech civilization.

In 1987 I visited a Samburu village in northern Kenya. I spoke to a young woman who lived in that village. She was 15 years old then. She had been married at 12 and she had a one-year-old child and a two-year-old child (she was holding both children when we spoke). This was completely normal in her society and it should be completely normal on Mars too.

Scott

Josh Cryer · 2002-09-08 01:07:42

I think that radiation levels will be highly reduced, if not non-existant. I don't see colonists exposing themselves to radiation unless it's absolutely necessary. I suspect the crustal magnetic zones will probably be prime colonization areas, especially since we know that underground water essentially exists planet-wide.

I don't see early pregnancies harming the education of a young woman. But I would still see a problem with a young woman getting pregnant without her express consent. She can not give that without understanding the total ramifications of pregnancy and child rearing.

Personally, I don't think young women, in their very early teens, should be out making babies. Even though I think they should be allowed to if properly educated, I think there are a lot more important things a young woman ought to be doing. Like getting an education and experiencing life. And I think a properly educated young woman would agree. Especially one on Mars...

Phobos · 2002-09-08 19:35:17

In 1987 I visited a Samburu village in northern Kenya. I spoke to a young woman who lived in that village. She was 15 years old then. She had been married at 12 and she had a one-year-old child and a two-year-old child (she was holding both children when we spoke). This was completely normal in her society and it should be completely normal on Mars too.

I'm aware that many societies modern and ancient have encouraged women to have children very early in life, but the thrust for such thinking usually had to do with the fact that life spans didn't tend to be that long. If your not expected to live much longer than 35 or 40, yeah you don't want to wait until your 25 to have kids. But I really don't see the impetus for encouraging people on Mars to have children so young if they have quality medical care and radiation proves to be a mute issue. Sure they could still be educated by setting up socialized childcare but the demands of parenthood would still take a lot away from them.

Palomar · 2002-09-09 14:38:49

*Personal plans fell through for my husband and I [vacation], so I'm baa-aack!

I'll address this, keeping it in a PRACTICAL vein.

Contrary to popular assumptions, it's NOT safe for young girls to give birth. Why? Mostly because of a fairly common complication [in ANY pregnancy, with a mother of any age] called "cephalopelvic disproportion." That's a fancy term for the baby's head being too big and the vaginal canal being too small to allow for spontaneous vaginal delivery. However, cephalopelvic disproportion is much more likely to occur in pregnancies involving young girls [12 or 13 years old] than at any other maternal age.

Any pregnancy carries with it the risk of having to forego normal, spontaneous vaginal delivery and performing a cesarean section. Marsians will, I'm sure, want to AVOID having to perform as many cesarean sections as possible, especially in the early stages of settlement/colonization. Cesarean sections do, of course, involve surgical incision into all abdominal muscles and all uterine muscle layers -- it's NOT a "minor" procedure by any means. There's always risk of infection for any surgery, of course, but if coupled with meconium being present in the gestational fluids, the risk of infection is increased for the mother.

From a practical point of view, Marsians might want to encourage women to refrain from giving birth until age 15 or 16; the chances of cephalopelvic disproportion are diminished -- that would be just one benefit.

And YES, I'd want it ensured that women have the same educational opportunities as men. Besides, it'd be folly not to ensure women have the same access to education and working knowledge as men; survival in that environment requires everyone be as knowledgeable, capable, and educated as possible.

--Cindy

Shaun Barrett · 2002-09-10 18:29:03

Cindy writes: "... it'd be folly not to ensure women have the same access to education and working knowledge as men .."

This is absolutely indisputable in the Martian context. But it is also a point that has been raised in connection with studies of western social and economic development, versus that of strict Islamic states.
It is readily apparent that most or all fundamentalist Islamic states, which routinely deny women access to basic human rights including education, are economically backward. In fact, it is hard to deny a direct cause-and-effect relationship between fundamentalist Islam and economic retardation.
How this relationship comes about has been attributed to the obvious loss of the talents and abilities of fully half the population of these countries!
Even a cursory glance at a typical western democracy, reveals the enormous contribution made by women in almost all walks of life. My own family has attended the practices of female doctors, physiotherapists and dentists, for instance. Half the optometrists in Australia are women. And the contribution made by women to nursing is legendary ... I'm proud to say my wife is a nurse! I could go on and on about extremely capable and talented women in demanding careers all over the western world.
All of this incalculable benefit to the well-being of society is denied to the people in a strict Islamic state. And it's difficult to argue with the premise that such states will, by their own hand, continue to fall further behind liberal democracies in terms of economic advancement. You can't choke off half the potential of your people and expect to prosper!
Here on Earth, it's madness. On Mars, it would be suicide.
???

Phobos · 2002-09-12 19:03:27

All of this incalculable benefit to the well-being of society is denied to the people in a strict Islamic state. And it's difficult to argue with the premise that such states will, by their own hand, continue to fall further behind liberal democracies in terms of economic advancement. You can't choke off half the potential of your people and expect to prosper!

I agree with both Cindy and Shaun. I think any society that takes pains to suppress half its population will suffer from slower progress and other pathological symptoms. I don't think there's a nation on Earth that has reached that point where women are totally free from oppression but when you see how some women are treated around the world it doesn't take much effort to see why people like Valerie Solanas come on the scene and demand that all males be killed. Also, I think societies can't expect to reach their full potential either if they take pains to suppress ideas and entrepreneurial potential in people. But that's just my two pesos.

Palomar · 2002-09-12 22:09:50

All of this incalculable benefit to the well-being of society is denied to the people in a strict Islamic state. And it's difficult to argue with the premise that such states will, by their own hand, continue to fall further behind liberal democracies in terms of economic advancement. You can't choke off half the potential of your people and expect to prosper!
I agree with both Cindy and Shaun. I think any society that takes pains to suppress half its population will suffer from slower progress and other pathological symptoms. I don't think there's a nation on Earth that has reached that point where women are totally free from oppression but when you see how some women are treated around the world it doesn't take much effort to see why people like Valerie Solanas come on the scene and demand that all males be killed. Also, I think societies can't expect to reach their full potential either if they take pains to suppress ideas and entrepreneurial potential in people. But that's just my two pesos.

*And I agree with you and Shaun. What I don't understand is how societies which vigorously and systematically oppress women [such as in Taliban-held Afghanistan, Iraq, etc.] can't see this.

As for Valerie Solanas...if all males were killed [perish the thought!], aggressive, domineering, and violent females would simply fill the shoes of aggressive, domineering, and violent males. I read articles by a group self-proclaimed butch lesbians a few years ago [at the behest of a gay cousin of mine]; I don't know why, but I was genuinely shocked to read of these butch lesbians referring to their partners as "bitches," "stupid broads," and parrotting typical he-man sexist garbage such as "I don't give a sh*t what happened to the cat, bitch -- where's my power tools?" and "Polish your nails later, bitch -- I want my turkey pot pie NOW!" It turned my stomach. I told my cousin what I thought of it.

Valerie Solanas is an idiot. Not all men are sexist, violent, abusive, or unfair to women. Many men at this message board [and elsewhere, both online and in person] are NOT this way.

--Cindy

C.COMMARMOND (FR) · 2002-09-13 12:49:01

I'd just like to tell that people who youngs have babies at 12 were usually people where life duration was 24 years. So 12 is half of the life and I remember in France an story about a queen who met a witch because she had no baby and she was 12 years old. And she died at 24. So age when you have child depend of the time you life will last. Islam rules were edicted in 432 of JC era and at that time, they didn't live a long time. The problem is that they law only slowly change when the world change. Probably in 20 years, they will change the law to forbid marriages before 20?

About Mars, people will spend most of the time in shielded spaces (station, caves...) so this should not be a problem. They will have all the technologies needed to mesure the radiation people get and to say if exists risks for babies. This is what our health services are supposed to already do. I hope we will get the same services or better on Mars.

A bigger question is about low gravity and its consequences on foetus growth.

CC

Josh Cryer · 2002-09-15 12:23:20

The only real justification, these days in a civilized society, for impregnating young women, is if a distastor happened, and a large portion of our species died. For example, a huge cluster of asteroids fly through the solar system. Most were deflected by Jupiter, protecting Mars for the most part. However, Earth was almost completely destroyed. The species needs to be replinished as quickly as possible, otherwise we risk complete extinction.

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#1 2002-09-07 18:33:09

Re: Marriage at 13 - Is this adaptive on Mars?

#2 2002-09-07 22:38:49

Re: Marriage at 13 - Is this adaptive on Mars?

#3 2002-09-07 23:42:20

Re: Marriage at 13 - Is this adaptive on Mars?

#4 2002-09-08 01:07:42

Re: Marriage at 13 - Is this adaptive on Mars?

#5 2002-09-08 19:35:17

Re: Marriage at 13 - Is this adaptive on Mars?

#6 2002-09-09 14:38:49

Re: Marriage at 13 - Is this adaptive on Mars?

#7 2002-09-10 18:29:03

Re: Marriage at 13 - Is this adaptive on Mars?

#8 2002-09-12 19:03:27

Re: Marriage at 13 - Is this adaptive on Mars?

#9 2002-09-12 22:09:50

Re: Marriage at 13 - Is this adaptive on Mars?

#10 2002-09-13 12:49:01

Re: Marriage at 13 - Is this adaptive on Mars?

#11 2002-09-15 12:23:20

Re: Marriage at 13 - Is this adaptive on Mars?

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