Clunking to Mars - Are the needed parts already up there?

SpaceNut · 2004-07-24 20:33:17

Unless rights to property ownership can be answered and a new governing body for space issues can be created space will only be for the elite unfortunately.

SpaceNut · 2004-07-26 13:04:53

For those that may have not found this article. Probe maps water vapour on Mars, http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3927041.stm

"Mars Express has detected an area of high water vapour over a region of the Red Planet called Arabia Terra."

So we now know for sure of water. So lets move on to something more interesting for the mars rovers to do.

quasar777 · 2004-08-23 07:41:18

i agree about the property issue. the only way to give incentive for going into OuterSpace is profit & the only way to make profit is ownership. for instance what possible way could Bill Gates live there? he`d get bored just riding on Soyuz & maybe living on ISS for a week. he would possibly be interested in a lunar Flyby, which really could only be done on a regular basis from a different Station than ISS. so currently there`s nothing to offer, whatsoever.

Grypd · 2004-08-23 09:09:57

This was a proposal to develop a manned base in LEO that could be sent up without the use of Heavy Lunchers and then assembled and boosted to the Moon.

http://www.marsinstitute.info/rd/facult … ]M.A.L.E.O Modular Assembly in Low Earth Orbit

It has advantages and disadvantages
Advantages, this allows launchers currently in service no need for heavy launchers, No need to build on the moon just send already made facilities for the Astronauts, It uses technigues already proven beam building and assembly in orbit ie ISS

Disadvantages
It requires multiple launches and this drives up costs. One failure to deliver a component and there is a major setback

quasar777 · 2004-08-24 07:33:31

ya, i think the Russians would get tired of being "truckers".

SpaceNut · 2004-08-24 10:40:19

While AI is a must in any rovers or robot we send to the moon or to Mars it sure would pay if we could meld the two together.
040823_robonaut-mars_bcol.standard.jpg

Vishal · 2004-08-27 12:39:21

Aloha there,

Clunking... to the Moon... I was at the ISU summer session last year and under the constraints of a team project came up with the idea of transferring the ISS to a trans lunar orbit where it intersected the moon every two orbits or 14 days. We did a fairly detailed array of calculations mass etc for it and although Mars wasn't the destination (restrictions of project requirements) its an interesting read especially the engineering stuff... You can find it by right clicking the links and going for the save option http://www.spacesurgeons.com/documents/ … pdf]Metzli http://www.spacesurgeons.com/documents/ … pdf]MEtzli executive summary

there both hefty file 32 and 22 megs respectively... please do feed back any comments to me.

Cheers

Commodore · 2004-08-27 13:11:17

there both hefty file 32 and 22 megs respectively... please do feed back any comments to me.
Cheers

Those links appear to be dead.

Vishal · 2004-08-28 16:03:15

they shoudl be working now... took a while to upload the files... you just beat me to it...

enjoy

quasar777 · 2004-08-30 08:34:41

is there any way to make this link easier? i`m @ library, where firewalls prevent me from the fancy stuff.

SpaceNut · 2004-08-30 08:50:50

Spelling your link would help with the extra T.
But I still did not find the execsummary pdf.

170 pages
http://www.spacesurgeons.com/documents/METZTLI.pdf

SpaceNut · 2004-08-30 09:02:54

List of Authors I find very interest since it is more like a united nations who's who.

Surname Name Country of Origin Current Occupation

Abiko Satoko Japan Ph.D. Student in Space Robotics
Tohoku University, Japan

Amaldi Andrea Italy Project Controller, ESA Human Spaceflight Dir. The Netherlands

Barr Yael Israel Medical Doctor
Israeli Aerospace Medicine Institute, Israel

Belin de Chantemèle Eric France Ph.D. Student Space Cardiovascular Physiology Université

Claude Bernard Lyon 1, France
Bonnewijn Sabrina Belgium Mechanical Engineer (Aerospace and Aeronautics) Vrije Universiteit Brussel, Belgium

Chen Diane Canada Software Product Assurance Engineer
MD Robotics, Canada

Dewhurst Brian USA Staff Officer, Board on Physics and Astronomy National Research Council, USA

Eley Serena USA B.Sc. in Physics
California Institute of Technology, USA

Englund Dirk Germany/USA Ph.D. Student in Applied Physics
Stanford University, USA

Faiyetole Ayodele Nigeria Student, Master of Space Studies 2003-2004 International Space University, France

Fontaine Sylvie France Design Engineer, Ariane 5 Solid Propellant Booster Systems,
EADS Space Transportation, Bordeaux, France

Gebic Kemal Turkey Master’s Space Technologies Application, France;
Graduate Physics, France; Graduate Astronomy, Turkey

Grafe Mathias Germany M.Sc. Mechanical and Aerospace Engineering Technical University of Dresden, Germany

Hales Jan Harry Denmark M.Sc. Student in Electrical Engineering Technical University of Denmark, Denmark

Hanratty C. David Ireland MEngSc (Research), B.E. (Mechanical) University College Dublin, Ireland

Jones Brandon USA Engineer
Titan Corporation, Houston, USA

Jones Edward USA Developmental Space Systems Engineer
Los Angeles Air Force Base, California, USA

Jones Amanda USA GPS Project Engineer
Los Angeles Air Force Base, California, USA

Klaus Kurt USA M.S. in Planetary Science
Adv. Computing, The Boeing Company, USA

Laufer René Germany Aerospace Engineer, Institute of Space Systems University of Stuttgart, Germany

Li Bin China Propulsion Systems Engineer, China Aerospace Science and Technology Corporation, China

Lim Dawn Canada Medical Student
University of Toronto, Canada

Matsumoto Kunihiro Japan ISS Payload Engineer,
NASDA, Japan

Mayrhofer Florian Austria Student of Molecular Biology
University of Vienna, Vienna, Austria

Müller Sánchez Francisco Mexico Master Student in Satellite Engineering Universität Karlsruhe, Karlsruhe, Germany

Nangalia Vishal UK Medical Doctor
United Kingdom v

Nguyen Hugo Sweden Researcher, The Ångstrom Space Technology Centre Uppsala University, Sweden

Nicolini Marco Italy Calculus, Physics, and Astronomy Teacher
Science and Technology Reporter, Italy

Ó Cuilleanáin Cian Ireland Student Master of Space Studies 03/04, ISU; B.E. (Mechanical)
University College Dublin, Ireland

Olansen Jon USA Lead Safety Engineer, Space Shuttle Upgrades
NASA/Johnson Space Center, Houston, USA

Organek Alison Canada Medical Student
University of Toronto, Canada

O'Rourke Johanna Australia Lawyer

Blake Dawson Waldron, Australia

Poon Tim Canada M.Sc. Student Electrical and Computer Eng. University of

Alberta, Edmonton, Canada

Porfiri Katerina Greece Survey Engineer
Greek Ministry of Finance, Greece

Rico Julio France Master Engineer in Industrial Systems Engineering
Master’s Degree in Space Tech. Apps., France

Sentenai Alina Germany Master Student in Aerospace Engineering TU Munich, Germany
Master Student in General Engineering, EC Paris, France

Slane Kenneth USA Director, Business Practices, and Ethics Advisor
Rocketdyne Propulsion and Power, USA

Smith Leissa Canada Systems Engineer
MD Robotics, Brampton, Canada

Smith Heather USA Research Assistant
SETI Institute/ NASA Ames, USA

Takahashi Yuki USA/Japan Ph.D. Student in Astrophysics
University of California, Berkeley, USA

Tanaka Kentaro Japan International Marketing Section
JSAT Corporation, Tokyo, Japan

Tripp Timothy USA Senior Manager, Product Engineering
The Boeing Company, Huntsville, Alabama, USA

Van der List Marco The Netherlands Technical Project Manager
Bradford Engineering B.V., The Netherlands

Weik Johannes Germany/Bolivia Architect
Stuttgart, Germany

Zhu Beiyuan China Engineer, China Aerospace Science and Technology
Corporation, China

Zhu Zhichun China Engineer, China Aerospace Science and Technology
Corporation, China

Vishal · 2004-08-31 00:09:30

links now definitely active and working ... apologies for delay

http://www.spacesurgeons.com/documents/ … ETZTLI.pdf

http://www.spacesurgeons.com/documents/ … xecSum.pdf

SpaceNut · 2004-08-31 08:46:46

It appears that the server access is case sensitive. This one is a 12 page file.

http://www.spacesurgeons.com/documents/ … xecSum.pdf

quasar777 · 2004-09-04 10:35:47

One of the reasons i think SkyLab was lost is bcuz too much was going into the Shuttle @ the time. That is a dangerous trend we`ve fallen into. Mir was similarly lost. no one stepped forward to save Mir. I fear the same for ISS. It`s just too easy for artifacts to burn in atmosphere. i only recently learned about method of Progress` disposal. what a waste. & the Hubble debacle too, imho is similar. I wonder if a catalogue could be kept of past lost opportunitites for salvage. Certainly, Lunar methods were wasteful as well.

C M Edwards · 2004-09-04 11:33:04

That does depend on what you mean by "lost."

If you mean "no longer usable as a space station," then IMHO Skylab and Mir were taken out of service right on time. They weren't built to be serviced (a bit like a car with the hood welded shut), and stuff wears out - including entire space stations. They just broke down.

If you mean "sent to their firey doom and destroyed," then, yes, I feel that's a dangerous trend. I think we should get out of the habit of abandoning satellites when they stop working to our satisfaction.

quasar777 · 2004-09-05 11:10:02

Yes CM, it`s a waste. Then the next question is where to send them? A LaGrange Point, higher orbit, Lunar Surface? & this should be written as Intl Space Law, much like Intl Maritime Laws are. One never knows when such equipment could save a life or mission. The seas were much more chaotic before Intl Laws much as OuterSpace is now. I`m not exactlysure when & how this cameabout. I haven`t really read about it yet, but will eventually. quick googlesearch would help, nodoubt.

John Creighton · 2004-09-05 12:03:17

Yes CM, it`s a waste. Then the next question is where to send them? A LaGrange Point, higher orbit, Lunar Surface? & this should be written as Intl Space Law, much like Intl Maritime Laws are. One never knows when such equipment could save a life or mission. The seas were much more chaotic before Intl Laws much as OuterSpace is now. I`m not exactlysure when & how this cameabout. I haven`t really read about it yet, but will eventually. quick googlesearch would help, nodoubt.

Would they get in the way of minimal energy trajectories if all the junk was stored at LaGrange Point? I think until better space transportation is available store the junk closer to earth until better space transportation is available. How about just above or just bellow the radiation belts.

Martian Republic · 2004-09-06 10:18:38

Yes CM, it`s a waste. Then the next question is where to send them? A LaGrange Point, higher orbit, Lunar Surface? & this should be written as Intl Space Law, much like Intl Maritime Laws are. One never knows when such equipment could save a life or mission. The seas were much more chaotic before Intl Laws much as OuterSpace is now. I`m not exactlysure when & how this cameabout. I haven`t really read about it yet, but will eventually. quick googlesearch would help, nodoubt.
Would they get in the way of minimal energy trajectories if all the junk was stored at LaGrange Point? I think until better space transportation is available store the junk closer to earth until better space transportation is available. How about just above or just bellow the radiation belts.

Keeping something above and below the radiation belt could cause some problems. Especially if it below the radiation belt. Remember the radiation belt start maybe 500 miles up or so and goes up to about 60,000 thousand miles or so. The space station about 250 miles up or so. If you put some thing in that 250 miles zone you will have to keep pushing it to a higher orbit because of the drag on the upper atmosphere will slow your space junk down and eventually cause it to de-orbit like the U.S. Space station de-orbited. They had to de-orbit the space station because upper atmosphere got whipped up in density where the Space station was orbiting and slowed the space station down.

No on the other side of the radiation belt, we should not have a problem.

Larry,

quasar777 · 2004-09-06 13:03:14

Is this area not also known as Geosynchronous Orbit,or GEO?

Rxke · 2004-09-06 13:51:06

GEO is quite specific, 36k km. out, on the equator, so anything under or above that is 'free.' (GEO is extremely busy...)

One of the (defendable) reasons space agencies go for the deorbit-burns is the possibility of older hardware either exploding (leaky batteries, rests of propellant) or errr... simply degrading into lots of smaller stuff, either through meteroid-impacts or just dergadation of used materials in extreme conditions... (Look at the LDEF, which was surrounded by a cloud of debris, when they went for it to recover the experiment..)
This, in time, can lead to a 'debris-field' that might prove a major headache for launches etc... We all know the story of the tiny paint-fleck that damaged a shuttle's window... Anything bigger and you're in *real* trouble.
In the olden times NASA and USSR didn't mind a bit of debris floating around, they even regularly blew up spent stages and stuff in orbit... Thank Golly they've grown wizer!

Russians had a system in place, esp. in use with their nuclear powered sats, that when the sat was EOL, a kick-stage sent the nuclear package into a higher orbit. But that sometimes failed, with some pretty nasty consequences (Cosmos-954, IIRC, probably other number... crashed into Canada, luckily in a remote place...)

To be sure: my heart bleeds when i think of MIR... It would be a great thing to have it now orbiting the Moon or even Earth in Higher than GEO... Likewise Hubble. These things are pieces of history. Even 'dead' they're quite valuable IMO... They're symbols of human achievement.

Rxke · 2004-09-06 13:59:13

One of the reasons i think SkyLab was lost is bcuz too much was going into the Shuttle @ the time.

I've read in several places (unofficially) Skylab was not outfitted with orbital motors because they actually *wanted* it to come down...

And the reason was indeed the Shuttle. A case of long-term planning gone horribly wrong...

Reasoning was (simplified): "we build Shuttle, if Shuttle ready, then Skylab must go ASAP, so we then can build bigass spacestation with cheap shuttle..."

Skylab was seen as some kind of a nuisance, they had plans for a 100+ crew station on the table... The Shuttle would cut launchcost tenfold, sky was the limit... But with a good spacestation still in orbit, that'd never would get funded.

Like we now tend to see ISS as a nuisance: it gobbles up money, that'd be better spent on Moon/Mars whatever...

So imagine ISS gets axed, and the new initiative, some years later too... You end up empty handed.

SpaceNut · 2004-09-07 08:47:01

When this happened so many years ago I myself was not aware of the design implications and of it's demise as a means to help with the shuttle funding. I thought at the time that the shuttle was more of an Airforce supremacy thing. Fighters in space concept.

SpaceNut · 2004-09-10 06:01:20

We all know that the journey to Mars is a long trip full of danger and of radiation dosages that will damage cells.

Secrets of a Salty Survivor

A microbe that grows in the Dead Sea is teaching scientists about the art of DNA repair.
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2004 … icrobe.htm

snipet:
Halobacterium appears to be a master of the complex art of DNA repair. "We have completely fragmented their DNA. I mean we have completely destroyed it by bombarding it with [radiation]. And they can reassemble their entire chromosome and put it back into working order within several hours," says Adrienne Kish, member of the research group studying Halobacterium at the University of Maryland.

SpaceNut · 2004-09-10 07:40:32

Definetly needed for any long period stay by any make up of Astronaut crew member, good weather prodictions...

Aussies plan for Mars weather forecasts - Seeing Mars in a different light
http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=15006

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#51 2004-07-24 20:33:17

Re: Clunking to Mars - Are the needed parts already up there?

#52 2004-07-26 13:04:53

Re: Clunking to Mars - Are the needed parts already up there?

#53 2004-08-23 07:41:18

Re: Clunking to Mars - Are the needed parts already up there?

#54 2004-08-23 09:09:57

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#55 2004-08-24 07:33:31

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#57 2004-08-27 12:39:21

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#59 2004-08-28 16:03:15

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