Genesis, Stardust, Etc.: Snag & Bag

Palomar · 2004-08-30 08:00:12

http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/my … ml]Genesis, Stardust, Hayabusa & Other

*Interesting article about sample retrieval and good bits of history (spy satellites and the like) too. I've been following the Genesis mission in the http://www.newmars.com/forums/viewtopic … Heliopolis thread.

This article deals with contamination scenarios, handling the cargo, cleanrooms, and:

"Based on the Genesis experience, the space agency’s planetary protection officer advised, 'NASA will gain knowledge that will greatly aid in an eventual sample return from Mars or some other location that might have more interest from a potentially biological perspective.'

So in this regard, Genesis is setting the stage for more ambitious snag, bag, and bring back projects in the years to come."

--Cindy

SpaceNut · 2004-08-30 09:57:48

I was surprised that it was not being process initially aboard the ISS but that would mean a lot more expense and real science work to be done.
The samples should prove very interesting but I think they will show simular results when compared to the lunar samples brought back so many years ago.

SpaceNut · 2004-09-07 10:19:01

top.genesis.capture.jpg

This week we all find out if a stunt pilot can do the job.

Palomar · 2004-09-08 11:18:16

*Well, since the Genesis mission fell down, went thud...

Some of us have commented on it in the "Heliopolis" thread.

Now they're http://www.space.com/news/genesis_captu … ]concerned about Stardust, which is slated to return in the same fashion as Genesis (via chutes) in January 2005. [::edit:: What? JPL homepage for Stardust mission says January 2006. I think '06 is correct; have seen that previously numerous times, IIRC]

It goes without saying that I sure hope Stardust doesn't meet with the same fate as Genesis. I wonder if the big shots at NASA are dreading a similar result.

--Cindy :bars:

SpaceNut · 2004-09-08 11:23:10

Web cast WATCH NASA TV Press conference at 2:30 PM EDT
http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/webcast/genesis/

SpaceNut · 2004-09-08 13:09:57

Star Dust link
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/s … 40102.html
Once the spacecraft reaches nears Earth in 2006, it will jettison a sample canister that will enter the atmosphere and parachute down to the desert floor of the U.S. Air Force Utah Test and Training Range.

Nasa home page for Star Dust
http://stardust.jpl.nasa.gov/index.html
Question could they not jetison the canister and have the probe enter earth orbit?

Palomar · 2004-09-08 14:49:45

*I can't believe the way this turned out. Sure, I knew a safe and sound capture and return wasn't guaranteed.

The news media is all over the cost of the mission...yes, there is a responsibility to the taxpayer of course. The cost, the cost...$

They wouldn't have given the mission more than a blurb maybe twice within 24 hours if it had GONE WELL.

But the loss of science is of paramount importance. Apparently the portion of the capsule containing the wafers has a gap an inch or so wide. I really doubt much is salvageable, but I'll keep my fingers crossed of course. :-\

I'm waiting for Dr. Jeffrey Bell to pipe up on his keyboard; I wonder if he'll gloat over this loss as well.

--Cindy

Shaun Barrett · 2004-09-09 02:12:58

Such a pity.
The loss of all that scientific information, gathered so patiently and carefully ... And you're right, Cindy, about how the cost of the mission will now become headline news - this kind of mishap only serves to fuel the Luddites' arguments against space exploration.

I know this was a pet project of yours, Cindy, so please accept my sympathy. It's a dark day for all of us, of course.
:bars:

Palomar · 2004-09-09 04:45:46

*Hey Shaun. Yep...everyone's loss. I can't imagine the wafers survived intact to any degree. The impact alone probably "did them in," but also the crazy violent wobbling of the capsule as it hurtled through the atmosphere and all the jarring that alone must have produced. I'm holding out a bit of hope, though, that something will be saved.

I'm getting conflicting reports as to the speed Genesis was traveling when it hit the ground; 100 mph, 140 mph, 193 mph. The first figure is bad enough as impact goes...sure hope it wasn't a higher velocity.

Not only the information about the Sun, but also the science towards studying how our solar system formed.

Oh, and I heard an official from NASA speaking in a TV interview yesterday. He (didn't catch his name) speculated that perhaps -- prior to the long-range cameras following Genesis' descent -- the first parachute was ripped away somehow (in the upper atmosphere). I guess they'll find out for sure once the hands-on gets started.

And again, Stardust is slated to return in a similar manner. I'll bet they're already biting their knuckles as to how that mission/sample return will play out...and we've got a 16-month wait to find out. :-\

Should have taken similar precautions with these missions as they did with the MER landings on Mars. Put inflatable cushions around them. But it's too late now to do that for either mission, Genesis or Stardust. :shakes head:

--Cindy

::EDIT::

SpaceNut: Nasa home page for Star Dust
http://stardust.jpl.nasa.gov/index.html … index.html
Question could they not jetison the canister and have the probe enter earth orbit?

*Sorry for not answering sooner. I doubt it. The probe itself isn't outfitted with parachutes at all (not to mention heat shielding), that I'm aware. How could it be slowed down sufficiently? ::edit:: Also, isn't the deployment of the capsule's parachutes somehow tied into/timed with its being jettisoned from the probe?

Palomar · 2004-09-09 05:45:01

http://www.space.com/news/genesis_react … ml]Battery failure may have doomed Genesis

"A preliminary but leading candidate for the calamity is a battery failure onboard the capsule. That battery was to have initiated a series of explosive charges that would have deployed a parachute system, slowing the capsule down to permit a mid-air helicopter recovery.

An electronic glitch in the sample return capsule -- or perhaps a problem with an onboard gravity sensor -- are also being weighed as possible items that triggered the crash."

*There is a gray UPDATE box to the right of the article, beneath the Images and on the right-hand side. The science canister was removed last night apparently...taken by helicopter to a "specially constructed clean room" at the nearby Army base.

:x:fingers crossed!!!!:x:

--Cindy

SpaceNut · 2004-09-09 06:21:29

I was doing a little searching on the battery type used, for this may be sugnificant in the future for other projects.

link for heating of batteries early in the genesis probes mission.
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99991576

another link sort of discounting the effects of heat on that style of batteries (lithium-dioxide) .
http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/releases/2001/r … 1_214.html

Not really sure about if the batteries were the reason for the pyros no going off or if it were some other electronics isssue at this point.

Palomar · 2004-09-09 09:24:23

I was doing a little searching on the battery type used, for this may be sugnificant in the future for other projects.
link for heating of batteries early in the genesis probes mission.
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.j … ns99991576
another link sort of discounting the effects of heat on that style of batteries (lithium-dioxide) .
http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/releases/2001/r … 1_214.html
Not really sure about if the batteries were the reason for the pyros no going off or if it were some other electronics isssue at this point.

*Hi SpaceNut:

From the 1st article you linked to:

"The batteries are running at about 40°C, well above the anticipated 23°C operating temperature. --->A faulty radiator is to blame<--- but attempts to bake off contaminants by heating were unsuccessful."

2nd article:

"--->A radiator device intended to shield the battery is not working as well as
expected<--- however and the battery is likely to heat up to 42 degrees Celsius (108 degrees Fahrenheit)."

*What I know about batteries and the like you could fit in a grain of rice with room left over to shove an elephant in...

But that radiator... ???

--Cindy

SpaceNut · 2004-09-09 09:35:40

Lithium batteries when put under there rated load of Amper Hour will generate heat, the higher the current draw the more heat internally generated. The radiator is intended to cool the batteries so that they will not internally break down.

Palomar · 2004-09-09 10:34:34

*Thanks SpaceNut.

http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.htm … 904]Update

They've begun examining the contents of the canister this morning. Please don't dash our hopes...

--Cindy

P.S.: Is that the stupidest damnedest irony or what, that the area is called "Dugway"? Sounds too coincidental for my comfort.

Palomar · 2004-09-09 10:50:20

*Thanks SpaceNut.
http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.htm … 904]Update
They've begun examining the contents of the canister this morning. Please don't dash our hopes...

*Spaceweather.com is attempting to host video footage of Genesis as it streaked through the sky. Will include *audio*. Here's a few comments on the brightness of the "man-made meteor" (there'd been speculation as to how brightly she'd glow on re-entry):

"Before Genesis crashed to the ground (yeah, we know, quit reminding us, grumble...), it was briefly visible as a glowing fireball over northern Nevada. Rob Suggs of NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center captured the man-made meteor on video tape. It was 'brighter than Venus, but dimmer than a half-moon,' estimates Suggs. Radio echoes from the fireball's plasma tail were also detected. We hope to post the video, with sounds, here on Spaceweather.com soon."

--Cindy

P.S.: Spaceweather.com updates its webpage daily. Archives available.

SpaceNut · 2004-09-09 10:52:01

I guess I would not like to land like that in a Soyuz space capsule returning from the ISS, that would be a disaster as was the shuttle.
I hope we can learn more about why the pyros did not go off. This could also be sensor and programming caused ( metric,english translation of units).
It also has given Nasa the chance to maybe change what does happen with the Stardust probe in 2006 if possible before another such failure.

Palomar · 2004-09-09 12:49:00

Heres]http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040909/ap_on_sc/genesis_capsule_29]Here's a full-article update

*Says not all science is lost.

Interesting: Says all the billions of charged atoms collected combined are "no bigger than a few grains of salt."

They're working under regulation/contamination prevention conditions of course...but article indicates the canister *appeared* to have a small break in it while still part of the wreck. :-\

! - "Scientists got their first glimpse of the damage when the Genesis capsule was wheeled into a garage bay late Wednesday. The capsule's inner canister was all but unrecognizable, although scientists thought they saw some unbroken parts holding the atoms." - !

Please, please!

Here's a tidbit about Stardust: "The mishap also raised questions about the durability of another NASA sample-return capsule called Stardust, due to land here in 2006. But that capsule was built to be more rugged and will land on its own with a parachute."

--Cindy

Palomar · 2004-09-09 15:06:03

*Most recent update from space.com. This gets into detail about what they're working with (so far), as the canister goes (seems like some glimmers of hope):

"Some of the contents of the canister actually spilled out into the impact area, he said, with people now back at the crash site to look for additional pieces buried in the dirt."

"Lindstrom told SPACE.com that, indeed, the sample canister had been ripped open.

'There’s about a six-inch gap between the top and the bottom,' he said. 'The spacecraft was tumbling as it came in…and actually landed on one edge. So we have one major part of this flat cylindrical sample container that is severely crushed. The other part appears to have little damage, although it has been opened.'

Over the next few days, ground handlers should have a better idea of when the science canister and its cargo can be sent to the NASA Johnson Space Center in Houston, Texas. --->Once there, specialists are to begin a painstaking search for what science can be gleaned from the shards of collector plates.<---

The scientific community is optimistic, Lindstrom added, because the solar wind particles – ions – are embedded within the collectors. 'So we’re very hopeful of getting good science out of this.'

Sizable pieces

-**Although the science canister has not as yet been opened for complete examination, a visual inspection of the hardware has buoyed the hopes of scientists.**-

'We haven’t actually been inside there to measure, but we believe we can see full 10-centimeter hexagons,' Lindstrom told reporters. (Yippee!)

Some of the other plates look to have been reduced to dust and are not scientifically usable, he said, but there are sizable pieces. Overall, there were five large frames that held some 55 hexagons each, Lindstrom said. So there are hundreds of these hexagons. Each of the frames is the size of extended arms making a circle. 'So there was a lot of area in these plates,' he said. 'We don’t really know enough now to say more,' Lindstrom said. 'I think we’ll have a pretty good idea in the next couple of days.'”

--Cindy

::EDIT:: Here's a photo of the solar wind collector wafers (and other information) in June 2000:

Click

Shaun Barrett · 2004-09-09 18:50:48

Well, that sounds a little more hopeful.
I suppose the scientists should be able to distinguish the solar particles from any contaminating dust which has entered the container?
???

Palomar · 2004-09-09 19:59:34

Well, that sounds a little more hopeful.
I suppose the scientists should be able to distinguish the solar particles from any contaminating dust which has entered the container?
???

*The article seems indicative of it. And now I'm worrying more (not your fault...perhaps I'm rooting for an unexpectantly good ending so much that I'm losing sight of critical thinking skills). :-\ But I must presume the scientists wouldn't make "leading" comments or the article's author isn't embellishing.

The suspense...egad. The fact that the canister was cracked and exposed to the elements, there on the ground... :-\ I'm definitely halfway between optimistic and guarding myself for another blow at this point.

--Cindy

Palomar · 2004-09-10 06:02:33

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/genes … ml]Picking through the pieces

*Looks like he's simply picking through a pile of rubble. :-\
Not inspiring.

--Cindy

::EDIT:: http://www.spacedaily.com/news/oped-04z.html]Opinion Dr. Jeff Bell. Seems he's saddened over the Genesis mishap. He also makes some scathing remarks about certain people and other planned sample-return missions.

Then this: "NASA officials are putting up the usual false front, claiming that useful data may still be extracted from the breached and dust-filled capsule...No scientist worth his salt will trust any supposed data that might be published from this mission."

???

Shaun Barrett · 2004-09-10 08:01:21

What a bitter old man is Jeff Bell!
He's saying, essentially, that Mars exploration is finished, other than with remote sensors on vehicles like the MERs, i.e. no crewed landings and no sample returns.
But this gloomy summary is based on faulty logic and what appears to be a serious personality clash with Dr. Zubrin. He cites two different arguments put forward by Bob Zubrin, which are separate, and ridicules them because they're "blatantly self-contradictory"! The two arguments are meant to be seen as two different scenarios demonstrating the vanishingly small risk of damaging interaction between any martian life and that of Earth.
If martian microbial life were to be entirely alien, based on a different set of amino acids, or no amino acids at all, then there is no chance of it 'infecting' our kind of life or devouring us - which amounts to the same thing. You may as well expect a computer virus to give you influenza! That's the first scenario. Period.
Now, if there is impact transfer of intact biological material - and, despite Jeff Bell's protestations that "there is no hard evidence", it has been demonstrated that crustal material is exchanged regularly and that that material definitely need not be subjected to sterilising conditions in the process - then Earth and Mars have not been biologically isolated these past 4 billion years or more. In fact, martian bacterial spores have almost certainly been landing intact on Earth as often as every few months or less, and, to a lesser extent perhaps, vice versa. If so, and I believe the evidence in favour of this is overwhelmingly compelling, then terrestrial microbes and martian microbes (if any) will be close relatives. In fact, there's probably much more chance of terrestrial bacteria, isolated for millions of years deep underground and brought to the surface by oil drilling, causing a raging epidemic than there is of martian bacteria doing the same. That's the second scenario. Period.
What Dr. Zubrin was trying to do was to establish that, either way, there is no significant danger. He knows the two hypothetical situations are "blatantly self-contradictory" ... they're meant to be!!

Maybe I'm as mad as Dr Zubrin(! ) but, to me, the chances of life on Mars are better than good. The chances of it being the result of a separate genesis are approximately zero. The chances of it being sufficiently like terrestrial life, but sufficiently different to wreak havoc on terrestrial life is, again, about zero.
As I have said before, I would go to Mars tomorrow morning and I would be no more afraid of catching a lethal martian bug than I am of catching a terminal disease here on Earth.
Current plans for a manned trip to Mars entail a surface stay of some 500 days - an ample incubation period. If I'm wrong and the one-in-a-billion worst case scenario comes to pass, our astronauts will all die of 'martian measles' right there on Mars. No one will be bringing the infection home because no one will be coming home!

Jeff Bell evidently has some kind of a chip on his shoulder and is allowing it to interfere with his rational thought processes.

Palomar · 2004-09-10 14:37:05

http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.htm … ]Snatching victory from the jaws of defeat?

*More details about what is salvageable.

Shaun: And I think I'd rather give O'Keefe the benefit of the doubt, when it comes to Bell. He does come off as a bit on the pessimistic side (about everything...definitely one of those "the glass is half EMPTY" types).

But how much spin NASA may be putting on what's salvageable from the collector wafers is interesting to speculate on (a bit...). Especially considering the EXPOSURE there on the desert floor. :-\

I still get that sickening ache in the pit of my stomach when I think about Genesis hitting the ground like that.

--Cindy

"The mission's main priority is to measure oxygen isotopes to determine which of several theories is correct regarding the role of oxygen in the formation of the solar system. Scientists hope to determine this with isotopes collected in the four target segments of the solar wind concentrator carried by the Genesis spacecraft.

'From our initial look, we can see that two of the four concentrator segments are in place, and all four may be intact,' Wiens said.

The mission's second priority is to analyze nitrogen isotopes that will help understand how the atmospheres of the planets in our solar system evolved. 'These isotopes will be analyzed using gold foil, which we have also found intact,' Wiens said.

Other samples of solar winds are contained on hexagonal wafers. It appears these are all or nearly all broken, but sizable pieces will be recovered, and some are still mounted in their holders. 'We won't really know how many can be recovered for some time, --->but we are far more hopeful important science can be conducted than we were on Wednesday<---,' Wiens said.

Another type of collector material, foils contained on the canister's lid, were designed to collect other isotopes in the solar wind. It appears approximately three-fourths of these are recoverable..."

Shaun Barrett · 2004-09-10 17:32:33

Despite the obvious contamination of the samples brought back by Genesis, I think there may be hope for at least some of the science to be salvaged.
We have a very good understanding of the kinds of isotope ratios of nitrogen and oxygen etc. that we find on Earth. If some of the probe's sample plates, or fragments thereof, have pristine examples of quite different isotope ratios, then I believe such examples can be confidently assumed to be the 'Real Solar McCoy'.
In this way, and perhaps in others, it seems likely the scientific community can piece together information which will be scientifically acceptable. In other words, while the literal contamination of the samples must have a metaphorically contaminating effect on the absolute validity of the data, I think there is still hope for useful science to come from all this.

Palomar · 2004-09-11 07:18:36

*Thanks Adrian.

Hi Shaun

This just in from space.com:

***
"It is amazing given the amount of breach in the canister just how clean it is inside" Sevilla said. "We're not talking about great clods of dirt."

Meanwhile, Sevilla said three pyrotechnic devices that were supposed to deploy the parachute system failed to trigger as planned. They have been "safed" to allow study of the capsule.

"None had been fired," he said. "This points to a command and control problem," not to any failure of the parachutes themselves.

NASA also announced today that Michael Ryschkewitsch, director of the Applied Engineering and Technology Directorate at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center, would lead the Genesis Mishap Investigation Board (MIB) in an effort to determine the exact cause of the disaster. The group is due to report back in mid-November.

The optimistic assessment led one reporter to ask if future sample-return missions might forego the theatrics of using Hollywood stunt pilots to make mid-air retrievals of capsules, and instead simply design the shells to survive a freefall.
***

By the way -- I noticed in an article yesterday about Stardust that it is designed to land solely via parachute; they're not planning any helicopter snatches for it (that's contrary to what I'd read previously... :hm: ).

http://www.space.com/news/genesis_updat … ml]Article in entirety

--Cindy

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#1 2004-08-30 08:00:12

Re: Genesis, Stardust, Etc.: Snag & Bag

#2 2004-08-30 09:57:48

Re: Genesis, Stardust, Etc.: Snag & Bag

#3 2004-09-07 10:19:01

Re: Genesis, Stardust, Etc.: Snag & Bag

#4 2004-09-08 11:18:16

Re: Genesis, Stardust, Etc.: Snag & Bag

#5 2004-09-08 11:23:10

Re: Genesis, Stardust, Etc.: Snag & Bag

#6 2004-09-08 13:09:57

Re: Genesis, Stardust, Etc.: Snag & Bag

#7 2004-09-08 14:49:45

Re: Genesis, Stardust, Etc.: Snag & Bag

#8 2004-09-09 02:12:58

Re: Genesis, Stardust, Etc.: Snag & Bag

#9 2004-09-09 04:45:46

Re: Genesis, Stardust, Etc.: Snag & Bag

#10 2004-09-09 05:45:01

Re: Genesis, Stardust, Etc.: Snag & Bag

#11 2004-09-09 06:21:29

Re: Genesis, Stardust, Etc.: Snag & Bag

#12 2004-09-09 09:24:23

Re: Genesis, Stardust, Etc.: Snag & Bag

#13 2004-09-09 09:35:40

Re: Genesis, Stardust, Etc.: Snag & Bag

#14 2004-09-09 10:34:34

Re: Genesis, Stardust, Etc.: Snag & Bag

#15 2004-09-09 10:50:20

Re: Genesis, Stardust, Etc.: Snag & Bag

#16 2004-09-09 10:52:01

Re: Genesis, Stardust, Etc.: Snag & Bag

#17 2004-09-09 12:49:00

Re: Genesis, Stardust, Etc.: Snag & Bag

#18 2004-09-09 15:06:03

Re: Genesis, Stardust, Etc.: Snag & Bag

#19 2004-09-09 18:50:48

Re: Genesis, Stardust, Etc.: Snag & Bag

#20 2004-09-09 19:59:34

Re: Genesis, Stardust, Etc.: Snag & Bag

#21 2004-09-10 06:02:33

Re: Genesis, Stardust, Etc.: Snag & Bag

#22 2004-09-10 08:01:21

Re: Genesis, Stardust, Etc.: Snag & Bag

#23 2004-09-10 14:37:05

Re: Genesis, Stardust, Etc.: Snag & Bag

#24 2004-09-10 17:32:33

Re: Genesis, Stardust, Etc.: Snag & Bag

#25 2004-09-11 07:18:36

Re: Genesis, Stardust, Etc.: Snag & Bag

Board footer