Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

deagleninja · 2004-09-07 08:14:51

Ultimatums, no courts, god's elimination.....am I hearing this right? Comstar03, do you live in America?

I guess this administration's spin about how terrorists 'hate freedom and liberty' has shaped the publics opinion nicely to their needs. People don't just wake up one day and say 'Ya know, that America is so free and wonderful, I think I'm going to destroy the Twin Towers'.

At the risk of stirring good ol patriots into a frenzy, let me say that they have reason to hate us. The US has, for over 50 years, played one Middle Eastern country against another, and then switched alliances. The end result, in a part of the world with very long memories, is that nearly all Arabs distrust us and most hate us.

We don't want Middle Eastern peace due to our need for oil. Should the Middle East ever stop hating each other they would have a huge target for their anger, the USA. Can you imagine what oil prices would be if we didn't occupy Iraq, Kuwaitt and Afghanistan?

Suadia Arabia is the largest oil producing country over there. It is also the home to the Bin Ladens, one of the wealthiest families in the world. Osama Bin Laden is the black sheep of this rich oil family. Perhaps, and I'm only offering my opinion, Osama is tired of his family's and our greed, keeping his people poor. Perhaps he is a hero in his mind and to others.

The label of 'terrorist' reminds me of so many labels thrown around to make the 'other guy' look wrong from the start. Remember 'commie'? Or how about 'liberal'?

Does anyone remeber a few months ago when Isreal assinated the leader of the Hamas? Now that the Hamas have struck back, they are terrorists. The news even included in their account 'of the latest terrorist attacks'. The US, by the way, never came out strongly against Isreals actions, because......well, they are our buddies.

You are so right when you say that wars always have an economic angle. The civil war was started over unfair taxation of the south. Property tax being the main source of income for the federal government at the time and southerns having little of anything except land.... As I said in an earlier thread, we didn't even get into WW2 till the Germans started sinking our supply boats, genocide wasn't even on the table. We recently waged a war for control of the Panama Canal, oil rich Iraq, oil rich Kuwaitt, and oil rich Iraq again.

Comstar03, I know you are a smart guy like many others in this forum, so please don't take our differing opinions as an attack on you. You are smart enough to see through the propoganda so I would like you and other to read this link I am posting. It's called 'Bush by the numbers' and it is an accounting of how this administration has spun things to their benefit, please read it with an open mind and see if you can sort anything out from it....

http://michaelmoore.com/words/index.php … php?id=154

SpaceNut · 2004-09-07 08:25:40

What else could Saudi arabia's people export besides oil that would lift there nations people out of being poor?

The rich also protect the rich always looking down on the poor as not part of there cast.

Cobra Commander · 2004-09-07 08:51:44

The president is not in complete control of the economy, but he can do some things that effect the economy. If he goes around the country telling everyone "be afraid; be very afraid," then that is bad for the economy.

So Democrats are bad for the economy, is what you're saying. Doom and gloom... :laugh:

If he starts unnecessary wars, then that is bad for the economy.

Except when it's good. War can be the greatest economic motivator there is.

. I would also argue that the tax policy of "trickle down economics" does not help the economy either.

I'll assume you're referring to the tax cuts, which are not "trickle down" but across the board cuts. But when you cut all brackets in a progressive tax scheme then -gasp!- rich people get more money. But everyone who pays income taxes gets a percentage reduction. This does help the economy.

Running up record budget deficits is bad for the economy.

You've actually got something with this one. If only there were a candidate who would actually balance the budget without doing other economy-killing actions at the same time.

You also have to keep in mind that the deficits are likely to get a lot worse when the baby boomers retire.

Damn Democrat social spending. :laugh:
In all seriousness, between Medicare (with new benefit) and Social Security we may well have a big lurching crash. Neither of the two Parties are offering much in the way of viable solutions. Neither are willing to make the hard decisions needed.

If four people say the economy is great and two people say it isn't, most believe the majority.

The other side of that is all those people who believe the economy is bad, but when you ask them they're doing fine. It's always bad for somebody, but when four people believe it's bad because collectively they know two people on hard times, it isn't that bad.

People don't just wake up one day and say 'Ya know, that America is so free and wonderful, I think I'm going to destroy the Twin Towers'.

And we're decadent infidels. And let's also not forget that we're dealing with a culture that likes to think of itself as superior to others yet hasn't accomplished anything of note in a thousand years and sees that the only people who achieve wealth and prosperity do so by providing goods or services to the decadent infidel, directly or indirectly.

The label of 'terrorist' reminds me of so many labels thrown around to make the 'other guy' look wrong from the start. Remember 'commie'? Or how about 'liberal'?

Those guys were wrong from the start. :laugh:

I wasn't aware that "liberal" was in the same bin as "commie" now.

Does anyone remeber a few months ago when Isreal assinated the leader of the Hamas? Now that the Hamas have struck back, they are terrorists.

Israel killed the leader of Hamas, an organization that blows up civilians on buses. Israel targeted an insurgent leader, in response Hamas killed more innocent civilians. There's no real comparison.

As for you're link, I'll peruse it with a skeptical eye this afternoon, but it reminds me of something that happened over the weekend. A family member went to see Fahrenheit 9/11 when it was first released and was telling me about it. I was invited to go along back then, but couldn't bring myself to give money to a war profiteering propagandist, but at any rate, the praise of it wasn't just the film itself, but the audience. "They were all Democrats" I was told excitedly, "everyone laughed and cheered at the same times" on and on. Apparently it was quite a wonderful experience.

Sounded a bit like a Nazi rally to me. Largely the same mindset in both cases as well.

SpaceNut · 2004-09-07 09:42:01

Even as we move forward with the fight against terror we will need to stop the means by which they carry out there tasks.

http://www.thespacereview.com/article/218/1
Snipet:
Democracy, development, censorship, and satellites
The ongoing legal effort by the French to force Eutelsat to stop carrying the pro-terrorist Al-Manar TV channel may be perfectly consistent with France’s traditions of secularism and their laws against various forms of hate speech, but it may also be a strategic mistake. Aside from the possibility that Al-Manar may simply switch to a different satellite company, the complex legal process has allowed one of the nastiest, and best supported, terrorist groups in the world to look like a victim.

SpaceNut · 2004-09-07 10:12:49

Question how are the terror groups getting there weapons?
Gernade launchers and misslie in additions to machine guns. Shut off the supply. I do not think these groups are making them but I could be wrong.

top.sadr.supporters.ap.jpg

deagleninja · 2004-09-07 12:46:53

You are correct SpaceNut, they aren't making their weapons. Almost all of the weapons that terrorist use are old US or Russian weapons. This is the problem with suppling short-lived allies with weapons to fight our at-the-moment enemys (thank you Reagan and Ollie).

Winning the war on 'terror' is actually quite simple. It's a radical policy change that will prove difficult. We, as Americans, need to stop looking down on these people. Calling them fanatics and evil does nothing but recruit more terrorists. These aren't video game pixels, they are people. Human beings that dream of a better life for their children just as we do.

When we bomb cities with innocent people living their lives, it creates terrorists. What is a terrorist? This is a great question that I haven't heard asked nor answered by our media. A terrorist is a man or woman who desires change yet has no voice in their government or others. They are typically limited to small arms fire and are often incapable of reaching their intended targets so they lash out at the people of their target in the hopes that people like you and I will ask, why are they so mad?

Now before some of you get irrate at my definition and retort that they are 'cold-blooded heartless godless killers', know that I am not approving of their tactics. I am simply trying to get you to understand that these people are very very anger and feel powerless.

Some of that feeling of helplessness comes from their own countries that don't recognize their point of view, but a lot of it also comes from US policy. We have no right, no right at all, telling these people how they should run their countries and who they should worship. Granted, we don't come out and say be Christian, but too many of us think it, and we do tell them to be democracys (capitalist).

'So Democrats are bad for the economy, is what you're saying. Doom and gloom... '

Now that isn't fair Cobra. Bush started saying the economy is in trouble when he took office. He's had three years to do something about it, and hasn't. Now that it is election time, is Kerry supposed to say that the economy is fantastic?

'Except when it's good. War can be the greatest economic motivator there is.'

If your country is stagnant like we were after the Great Depression, then yes I agree. So is Bush's plan to enter another Great Depression so he can get the other two in his axis-of-evil?

'I'll assume you're referring to the tax cuts, which are not "trickle down" but across the board cuts. But when you cut all brackets in a progressive tax scheme then -gasp!- rich people get more money. But everyone who pays income taxes gets a percentage reduction. This does help the economy.'

73 percent of Americans say they were unaffected by Bush's tax cuts, doesn't sound across the board to me. Truth is, the wealthiest Americans pay the most tax. They also pay a higher percentage of tax than Joe Blow. So when you cut taxes for the rich (ie capital-gains, dividends) you are left with two choices, tax the poor harder and/or rack up deficits.

'You've actually got something with this one. If only there were a candidate who would actually balance the budget without doing other economy-killing actions at the same time.'

Ah, if only Clinton could have had a third term. Btw, anyone remember our projected surpluses in the last years of Clinton? Whatever happened to those? Oh yea, tax cuts.......yay? Bush should have listened to Greenspan who was against those tax cuts.

'Damn Democrat social spending.'

Yep, it's all those greedy money lovin single moms and their free EBT milk!!! How can we afford to wage a respectable war in Iraq and Afghanistan when they keep drinking all that milk!! :angry:

'And we're decadent infidels. And let's also not forget that we're dealing with a culture that likes to think of itself as superior to others yet hasn't accomplished anything of note in a thousand years'

Good point! In just under 300 years we've managed to enslave thousands of Africans, commit genocide against the natives of this great country, round up hundreds of Jap-Americans into concentration camps, and drop two atomic bombs on two different Japanesse cities! Why just this year alone we've killed over 200,000 people in Iraq! ???

'A family member went to see Fahrenheit 9/11 when it was first released and was telling me about it. I was invited to go along back then, but couldn't bring myself to give money to a war profiteering propagandist, but at any rate, the praise of it wasn't just the film itself, but the audience. "They were all Democrats" I was told excitedly, "everyone laughed and cheered at the same times" on and on. Apparently it was quite a wonderful experience.

Sounded a bit like a Nazi rally to me. Largely the same mindset in both cases as well.'

I noticed the same phenomenon when I went to see it. I think the release of pent up feelings after months of being silenced is why people leave the theater feeling so good. When Bush started leading this country into another war with Iraq, I was horrified. Surely, I thought to myself, no one is going to believe that Saddam is somehow linked to 9/11 and has been busy building WMD right under UN inspector's noses. But then it happened........and the great silencing came to pass. Honest, inquisitive questions were now considered treasonous and I began to be attacked by people saying that 'We must stand united for the safety of our troops'.

I always thought that they were supposed to be fighting for our freedom of speech. You can imagine my shock when I learned that questioning weither we should be diverting troops from Afghanistan to Iraq could somehow cost a life half-way around the globe!

I urge anyone who loves this country as much as I do, to see Michael Moore's movie about 9/11. I was skeptical at first, and even afterwards. Somewhere in the back of my mind I kept thinking 'this can't be real, why didn't I hear/see this on the news?'. However, the facts are real, unfortunately.

Bush knew about the first tower being hit before he went into a second grade classroom. He sat there in the classroom for over 7 minutes listening to the teacher read 'My Pet Goat' after being told that the second tower had been struck by another plane.

If you don't want to give Michael Moore any money, fine, rent it, Moore gets not a cent if you rent it, only the video store. But please, keep an open mind and watch it and do your country a favor and vote for Kerry. I don't hate Republicans and I don't love Kerry, but he cannot be as bad as Bush.

SpaceNut · 2004-09-07 12:58:36

But since the people that would be terrorist have arms all that is needed is a place that have enough people to say that this land is ours. They stand up and create there own government not by attacking others. Fencing or creating baracade first to protect and then by getting there voice heard by negotiations for this protected area to be recognized. Succeed from the nation..

deagleninja · 2004-09-07 13:15:44

Ah yes, but we are talking about wanted men here. How long do you think they would live if they put down roots somewhere?

Unfortunatly, there has been too much killing on both sides for a cease fire to work. There are young boys growing up now who are going to bed promising to kill those that killed their father.

Must we condeem their actions, yes.
But we must also cease the policies that create new generations of terrorists. We must stop bombing innocent people just so we can boast low combat related deaths. We must fight with honor when they do not. We must take away their support by treating the citizens of the harboring nation with respect.

I have asked this before and I will ask it again. Had we assasinated Saddam only, how much support would insurgents have? Picture the scenario, we fly over Bagdad, kill Saddam, and leave only our best wishes for the people of Iraq. Would the terrorists have weight to their claim that we seek to occupy their country for oil? No.

You don't kill a fly with a tank, you use a fly-swatter.

SpaceNut · 2004-09-07 13:28:01

Hind sight is not always the route that is taken when event happens again. Back when Kiwait was attach we came at there request but stopped short of doing the job then that we are doing now unfortunately. Things might have been different had it happened but we will only know once we have gone from there nation. Sitting back and not meddling in there internal affairs which may not be easy.

Cobra Commander · 2004-09-07 13:30:23

You are correct SpaceNut, they aren't making their weapons. Almost all of the weapons that terrorist use are old US or Russian weapons. This is the problem with suppling short-lived allies with weapons to fight our at-the-moment enemys (thank you Reagan and Ollie).

The vast majority of terrorist weapons are Soviet. The AK-47 is ubiquitous. The RPG is also Soviet, that nation poured weapons into these countries and now there are massive ammo dumps scattered everywhere.

'Except when it's good. War can be the greatest economic motivator there is.'
If your country is stagnant like we were after the Great Depression, then yes I agree. So is Bush's plan to enter another Great Depression so he can get the other two in his axis-of-evil?

And all this time I've been hearing that this is "the worst economy since the Great Depression." Hmm, I guess maybe some quarters have been grossly exaggerating the matter.

So when you cut taxes for the rich (ie capital-gains, dividends) you are left with two choices, tax the poor harder and/or rack up deficits.

Only if you don't cut spending. That is where I have a big problem with President Bush.

Ah, if only Clinton could have had a third term. Btw, anyone remember our projected surpluses in the last years of Clinton?

Projected being the key word. Many of the factors used in that projection weren't realistic to start with. Further, if we assume that the projections were accurate and we did end up with a real surplus it means one of two things. Either we use it toward the debt, in which case it ceases to be in an instant and doesn't really help much in the big picture; or we interpret it to mean that the government has taken too much from the people in taxes and therefore owes them their money back, after which there would be no surplus which is the entire point. In none of these cases do we have a magical pile of money with which to solve all our fiscal problems.

Good point! In just under 300 years we've managed to enslave thousands of Africans, commit genocide against the natives of this great country, round up hundreds of Jap-Americans into concentration camps, and drop two atomic bombs on two different Japanesse cities! Why just this year alone we've killed over 200,000 people in Iraq!

Looking over that last 300 years is that really what you see? Is that what you believe defines us, those are the most significant events?

I think we may have stumbled onto the heart of the problem. :hm:

I noticed the same phenomenon when I went to see it. I think the release of pent up feelings after months of being silenced is why people leave the theater feeling so good.

No one's being silenced. Some people were challenged but that's how free speech works, you have a right to say what you believe and I have a right to say why I believe it's wrong. Sometimes one group even gets ganged up on! Oh the horror.

I urge anyone who loves this country as much as I do, to see Michael Moore's movie about 9/11. I was skeptical at first, and even afterwards. Somewhere in the back of my mind I kept thinking 'this can't be real, why didn't I hear/see this on the news?'. However, the facts are real, unfortunately.

Actually many of the "facts" are misrepresented. Others are outright fabrications.

Bush knew about the first tower being hit before he went into a second grade classroom. He sat there in the classroom for over 7 minutes listening to the teacher read 'My Pet Goat' after being told that the second tower had been struck by another plane.

From the 9/11 report:

"White House Chief of Staff Andrew Card told us he was
standing with the President outside the classroom when Senior Advisor to the President Karl Rove first informed them that a small, twin-engine plane had crashed into the World Trade Center.The President's reaction was that the inci-dent
must have been caused by pilot error."

The "pilot error" assumption was widely accepted after the first crash as information trickled out, "twin engine plane" could mean anything from a jetliner down to a little Beechcraft, with the latter assumption being the most frequent. There were no pictures, no video. I was listening on the radio after the hit, no one knew anything. Even the air traffic controllers couldn't account for the locations of aircraft or identify what hit the tower, as explained in the report.

It further refutes the "Bush got bin Laden's family out" allegations, absolute bulldung, on and on. I would strongly advise that everyone that has seen that movie read the 9/11 report. Really read it, all 585 pages of it. It shows the vast expanse of grey in an issue that both sides would like to portray as black and white.

That said, I'll download a bootleg of Fahrenheit 9/11 and watch it in the coming weeks. Should be worth a few laughs.

deagleninja · 2004-09-07 14:10:45

Looking over that last 300 years is that really what you see? Is that what you believe defines us, those are the most significant events?

No, it isn't all I see, but I don't see enough good to balance out these evils, do you? Without mentioning the Moon landings or liberating Europe, what 'great' things have we done for the world?

And all this time I've been hearing that this is "the worst economy since the Great Depression." Hmm, I guess maybe some quarters have been grossly exaggerating the matter.

Well as far as job creation goes, it's a fair analogy. But our economy is more complex than job creation and the quality of those jobs. I personally tend to focus on the quality of jobs rather than the number. We are facing a serious crisis as our education system continues to fail to provide the skills needed in a much more competitive world. Jobs that used to provide for a family of four now can't support two.

Projected being the key word. Many of the factors used in that projection weren't realistic to start with. Further, if we assume that the projections were accurate and we did end up with a real surplus it means one of two things. Either we use it toward the debt, in which case it ceases to be in an instant and doesn't really help much in the big picture; or we interpret it to mean that the government has taken too much from the people in taxes and therefore owes them their money back, after which there would be no surplus which is the entire point. In none of these cases do we have a magical pile of money with which to solve all our fiscal problems.

So what you are saying is that we would have a surplus if we hadn't gone to war with Iraq and wasted money on ineffective tax cuts that did nothing to stimulate the economy?

No one's being silenced. Some people were challenged but that's how free speech works, you have a right to say what you believe and I have a right to say why I believe it's wrong. Sometimes one group even gets ganged up on! Oh the horror.

Well they certainly can try can't they? I've been physically attacked for speaking my mind thrice following the invasion of Iraq. Now, I'm not saying that Bush ordered his followers to attempt to silence me, but I am saying that they encourage a rather narrow-minded view of what is and isn't patriotic. I guess when what you say here stateside can get little Johnny killed in Iraq, people tend to get out of hand.

Actually many of the "facts" are misrepresented. Others are outright fabrications.

It further refutes the "Bush got bin Laden's family out" allegations, absolute bulldung, on and on. I would strongly advise that everyone that has seen that movie read the 9/11 report.

I guess Michael Moore has more power than I thought. Just how did he sneak more fabrications into page 556 of the 9/11 Report that states 142 Saudis, including 24 members of the bin Laden family, were allowed to leave the country after September 13.

From the 9/11 report:
"White House Chief of Staff Andrew Card told us he was
standing with the President outside the classroom when Senior Advisor to the President Karl Rove first informed them that a small, twin-engine plane had crashed into the World Trade Center.The President's reaction was that the inci-dent
must have been caused by pilot error."

Ahhhh, now I see why they fought the commision for so long, they had to get their stories straight.....please.

Euler · 2004-09-07 14:11:45

'Except when it's good. War can be the greatest economic motivator there is.'
If your country is stagnant like we were after the Great Depression, then yes I agree. So is Bush's plan to enter another Great Depression so he can get the other two in his axis-of-evil?
And all this time I've been hearing that this is "the worst economy since the Great Depression." Hmm, I guess maybe some quarters have been grossly exaggerating the matter.

The reason why WWII was so good for the economy was because we spent the first few years staying out of it and exporting arms to the rest of the world. The war also damaged the industrial infrastructure of most of the other industrialized nations, causing a higher demand for US manufactured goods.

deagleninja · 2004-09-07 14:15:48

Thank you Euler, as always, you are the voice of reason

I love ya Cobra, please know that I enjoy our games of ping-pong very much!

Rxke · 2004-09-07 14:20:31

The AK-47's are so popular worldwide because you can copy them fairly easily in a basic metal-shop. That's why the Israeli army targets all metal-shops in Gaza etc...

And the 9-11 report... About the prez hearing about the first plane... OK.
But the critique is about his reaction upon hearing there was a *second* plane that crashed into the other tower. When he was inside the school...

deagleninja · 2004-09-07 14:27:16

The AK-47 is a wonderful weapon for a lot of reasons.

As you mentioned Rxke, it is easy to assembly. It is also very powerful and durable.

Hmmmm maybe I should take that trip to Israel.....

Cobra Commander · 2004-09-07 14:35:47

I love ya Cobra, please know that I enjoy our games of ping-pong very much!

:laugh: I guess it's my serve again.

No, it isn't all I see, but I don't see enough good to balance out these evils, do you? Without mentioning the Moon landings or liberating Europe, what 'great' things have we done for the world?

Yes, we've created the first truly free nation in even remotely modern times, we threw off the yoke of monarchs and set the example for the rest of the world, we freed those very slaves you mentioned and in time made them equal citizens who share in the bounty of the unparalled standard of living that we have created. We have done more to spread liberty and prosperity than any other nation in human history, the world without the United States of America would have been a much darker place.

But knowing your perspective, your arguments make more sense.

I find that perspective to be wrong and a little bit sick, but because of all that we've accomplished you're more than welcome to argue it.

So what you are saying is that we would have a surplus if we hadn't gone to war with Iraq and wasted money on ineffective tax cuts that did nothing to stimulate the economy?

If the projections were correct and until we dropped it into the memory-hole that is the national debt.

Well they certainly can try can't they? I've been physically attacked for speaking my mind thrice following the invasion of Iraq.

Yes, I know that happens from time to time and it shouldn't, but I'm just not that upset about it. I've been taking the same crap since I was old enough to formulate and state an opinion, if you challenge peoples' deep beliefs and sense of right you have to expect to take a few punches. If a smooth ride is what you want don't rock the boat, otherwise be prepared to get thrown off from time to time.

Just how did he sneak more fabrications into page 556 of the 9/11 Report that states 142 Saudis, including 24 members of the bin Laden family, were allowed to leave the country after September 13.

September 13, after the ban on air travel was lifted and with no knowledge or involvement from the White House. The "Bush got bin Laden's family out" argument is total bunk.

Ahhhh, now I see why they fought the commision for so long, they had to get their stories straight.....please.

I'm curious as to the circumstances when you heard about the attack. I heard about the first one on the radio and no one knew what was going on. I saw the second hit live on television in a hospital waiting room, only then did it become clear that this wasn't some accident. It all looks so clear looking back, but at the time it was a total tangled clusterfuck and no one knew what to make of it or what to do.

The reason why WWII was so good for the economy was because we spent the first few years staying out of it and exporting arms to the rest of the world. The war also damaged the industrial infrastructure of most of the other industrialized nations, causing a higher demand for US manufactured goods.

Exporting arms was an economic boost, but so was our entry into the war, that was what finally shook off the depression. The destruction of foreign infrastructure was largely responsible for American prosperity after the war, but not during.

But it was a war economy, something we today have barely an inkling of.

And the 9-11 report... About the prez hearing about the first plane... OK.
But the critique is about his reaction upon hearing there was a *second* plane that crashed into the other tower. When he was inside the school...

Right. So what would have been the proper reaction? Kerry has already stated that he was unable to do anything for thrity minutes or so, that probably isn't the right response. Maybe he should have panicked. No, I suppose not. Perhaps jump up like Superman, "Children, I must leave to..." wink, "...save the world." Uh, no.

It was a big shock to almost everyone and even if he had clamly walked out and began conferring with his staff they couldn't have done anything.

I'm not a big fan of George Bush, but let's at least hit him on real issues, not phantoms and drivel.

comstar03 · 2004-09-07 16:50:19

deagleninja,

I can see what you are going on ( remember this - a terrorist can't be reasoned with, you are not in their group, ideal and belief structure - you're the enemy to be eliminated), but I can tell you from a Business prospective , terrorist, ( not the general population) are targeting economic soft targets - what will happen is that the large corporations will deploy their own heavy security teams (mercs, ex-cia, ex-kgb, ex-special forces) to eliminate the terrorist threat themselves without going to the government of the individual countries.

The problems with do process is that, by the time we get around to prosecuting these people, there will be a large percentage of our population injuried or dead, and they use the death attacker and then display them as heroes to younger generations; We need to there break the circle of hero worship as god's holly warrior through education ( I don't think that will work ) or bring the fight to them their style, kill their families and destroy their lives, but the process either way comes with risks, and when you look at the universe it isn't a peaceful place.

Because the longer this goes on the longer we have issues within the public regarding safety and security; instead of exploration and pursuit of knowledge.

wgc · 2004-09-07 17:06:34

You are correct SpaceNut, they aren't making their weapons. Almost all of the weapons that terrorist use are old US or Russian weapons. This is the problem with suppling short-lived allies with weapons to fight our at-the-moment enemys (thank you Reagan and Ollie).
Winning the war on 'terror' is actually quite simple. It's a radical policy change that will prove difficult. We, as Americans, need to stop looking down on these people. Calling them fanatics and evil does nothing but recruit more terrorists. These aren't video game pixels, they are people. Human beings that dream of a better life for their children just as we do.
When we bomb cities with innocent people living their lives, it creates terrorists. What is a terrorist? This is a great question that I haven't heard asked nor answered by our media. A terrorist is a man or woman who desires change yet has no voice in their government or others. They are typically limited to small arms fire and are often incapable of reaching their intended targets so they lash out at the people of their target in the hopes that people like you and I will ask, why are they so mad?
Now before some of you get irrate at my definition and retort that they are 'cold-blooded heartless godless killers', know that I am not approving of their tactics. I am simply trying to get you to understand that these people are very very anger and feel powerless.
Some of that feeling of helplessness comes from their own countries that don't recognize their point of view, but a lot of it also comes from US policy. We have no right, no right at all, telling these people how they should run their countries and who they should worship. Granted, we don't come out and say be Christian, but too many of us think it, and we do tell them to be democracys (capitalist).
'So Democrats are bad for the economy, is what you're saying. Doom and gloom... '
Now that isn't fair Cobra. Bush started saying the economy is in trouble when he took office. He's had three years to do something about it, and hasn't. Now that it is election time, is Kerry supposed to say that the economy is fantastic?
'Except when it's good. War can be the greatest economic motivator there is.'
If your country is stagnant like we were after the Great Depression, then yes I agree. So is Bush's plan to enter another Great Depression so he can get the other two in his axis-of-evil?
'I'll assume you're referring to the tax cuts, which are not "trickle down" but across the board cuts. But when you cut all brackets in a progressive tax scheme then -gasp!- rich people get more money. But everyone who pays income taxes gets a percentage reduction. This does help the economy.'
73 percent of Americans say they were unaffected by Bush's tax cuts, doesn't sound across the board to me. Truth is, the wealthiest Americans pay the most tax. They also pay a higher percentage of tax than Joe Blow. So when you cut taxes for the rich (ie capital-gains, dividends) you are left with two choices, tax the poor harder and/or rack up deficits.
'You've actually got something with this one. If only there were a candidate who would actually balance the budget without doing other economy-killing actions at the same time.'
Ah, if only Clinton could have had a third term. Btw, anyone remember our projected surpluses in the last years of Clinton? Whatever happened to those? Oh yea, tax cuts.......yay? Bush should have listened to Greenspan who was against those tax cuts.
'Damn Democrat social spending.'
Yep, it's all those greedy money lovin single moms and their free EBT milk!!! How can we afford to wage a respectable war in Iraq and Afghanistan when they keep drinking all that milk!! :angry:
'And we're decadent infidels. And let's also not forget that we're dealing with a culture that likes to think of itself as superior to others yet hasn't accomplished anything of note in a thousand years'
Good point! In just under 300 years we've managed to enslave thousands of Africans, commit genocide against the natives of this great country, round up hundreds of Jap-Americans into concentration camps, and drop two atomic bombs on two different Japanesse cities! Why just this year alone we've killed over 200,000 people in Iraq! ???
'A family member went to see Fahrenheit 9/11 when it was first released and was telling me about it. I was invited to go along back then, but couldn't bring myself to give money to a war profiteering propagandist, but at any rate, the praise of it wasn't just the film itself, but the audience. "They were all Democrats" I was told excitedly, "everyone laughed and cheered at the same times" on and on. Apparently it was quite a wonderful experience.
Sounded a bit like a Nazi rally to me. Largely the same mindset in both cases as well.'
I noticed the same phenomenon when I went to see it. I think the release of pent up feelings after months of being silenced is why people leave the theater feeling so good. When Bush started leading this country into another war with Iraq, I was horrified. Surely, I thought to myself, no one is going to believe that Saddam is somehow linked to 9/11 and has been busy building WMD right under UN inspector's noses. But then it happened........and the great silencing came to pass. Honest, inquisitive questions were now considered treasonous and I began to be attacked by people saying that 'We must stand united for the safety of our troops'.
I always thought that they were supposed to be fighting for our freedom of speech. You can imagine my shock when I learned that questioning weither we should be diverting troops from Afghanistan to Iraq could somehow cost a life half-way around the globe!
I urge anyone who loves this country as much as I do, to see Michael Moore's movie about 9/11. I was skeptical at first, and even afterwards. Somewhere in the back of my mind I kept thinking 'this can't be real, why didn't I hear/see this on the news?'. However, the facts are real, unfortunately.
Bush knew about the first tower being hit before he went into a second grade classroom. He sat there in the classroom for over 7 minutes listening to the teacher read 'My Pet Goat' after being told that the second tower had been struck by another plane.
If you don't want to give Michael Moore any money, fine, rent it, Moore gets not a cent if you rent it, only the video store. But please, keep an open mind and watch it and do your country a favor and vote for Kerry. I don't hate Republicans and I don't love Kerry, but he cannot be as bad as Bush.

I wouldn't put any money on that? Wonder what Kerry would of done.

People like you and Moore who think they know everything really make me sick.

Truth is there was a lot of misinformation floating around that , everyone including a few of our leaders , many democrats were in panic. After all nothing like this had happened before... or at least in a long time ... it was pearl harbor all over again. Someone did have the insight however to ground all air travel.. and put up combat air patrols...

Its already been shown intellegence was pretty bad... leaders are only as good as the intellegence available.

This is not a new happening, The Kennedy administration and later Regan overcounted the nuclear capablilites of the Soviet Union.. . It wasn't untill the keyhole satellites became available that the true strength of the russian nuclear force was known, and by than it was too late the cold war was well underway and the generals on both side were niether going to admit they were wrong or that it was a bad thing.

The Moore movie is nothing more than a political add for Kerry... Thats my opinion.. I voted for Clinton but there is no way I'm going to vote for Kerry.

I vote for a candidate based on their record not how well they can bash a president over a national crisis.. We really should of raked Rosevelt over for Pearl Harbor.. Especially when there is no evidence to show the other person would be any more effective. "We will only go to war when we have too", What does that mean, only when its a direct threat to the United States , is a threat against Nato considered in the only "When we have too" You never show your cards to the enemy.... Maybe Reagan would of done better in Salt if he would of went into the talks with that attitude...

I've spent a lot of time researching Kerry, he has a dim Congressional record.. Sure he desearved credit for serving in Vietnam then became a vocal critic of the war... The poor souls like my Father who also served didn't come back to a heros welcome they came back to cries of "Baby Killers" and the like. Are we all forgetting Clinton effectly got out of serving , did that make him any less a president.

I'm a strong supporter of our space program so it bothers me when Kerry visits KSC and doesn't mention one word about our space program. Again his record shows how much he supported the record. Oh but maybe his policy is
"I will only support the space effort when I have too". Go ahead and vote for Kerry its a free country but if he should get into office don't cry in this forum when he cuts support for the program because there won't be any sympathy. :angry:

deagleninja · 2004-09-07 19:20:56

Cobra- my return serve is coming, I'm just short on time right now.

wgc- I don't claim to know everything and neither does Michael Moore to the best of my knowledge. I'm sorry my opinions make you sick, but they do say 'the truth hurts'.

What gets me about people that hate Michael Moore and his movie is that so few have actually seen it. How can you hate something that you have no knowledge about? The answer is that unlike Cobra, who is at least willing to watch it once, you are afraid. You are set in your ways and refuse to be persuaded. That is your choice, and I do respect it. However, please don't expect people to consider your opinions on subjects of which you have no knowledge.

What can I say? Is Bush the antichrist? Hitler? No. He's more like the last ceaser in Rome. He is ignorant of what goes on around him. His father knows it, and most of America knows it. It is dangerous to have leaders so weak, because they are easily manipulated. His father has tried to assist him by giving him most of his former staff, but I feel they have their own agendas in mind and not the peoples.

Kerry might possibly give NASA the axe, but so what? Does anyone really believe that NASA is capable of greatness these days? What is more important is that the country and its people are taken care of. We can not afford to be the 'world's police force' as yet another Republican administration has shown. We need to modernize this nation's infrastructure before we lose our status as a superpower. This, not terrorism, should be the focus of the nation.

Please don't let fear rule your reason wgc. This administration wants Americans to be afraid, it helps them rule and keeps the population distracted from more important issues. You are too smart to be manipulated this way. Remember, it's all smoke and mirrors....

wgc · 2004-09-07 19:36:20

Cobra- my return serve is coming, I'm just short on time right now.
wgc- I don't claim to know everything and neither does Michael Moore to the best of my knowledge. I'm sorry my opinions make you sick, but they do say 'the truth hurts'.
What gets me about people that hate Michael Moore and his movie is that so few have actually seen it. How can you hate something that you have no knowledge about? The answer is that unlike Cobra, who is at least willing to watch it once, you are afraid. You are set in your ways and refuse to be persuaded. That is your choice, and I do respect it. However, please don't expect people to consider your opinions on subjects of which you have no knowledge.
What can I say? Is Bush the antichrist? Hitler? No. He's more like the last ceaser in Rome. He is ignorant of what goes on around him. His father knows it, and most of America knows it. It is dangerous to have leaders so weak, because they are easily manipulated. His father has tried to assist him by giving him most of his former staff, but I feel they have their own agendas in mind and not the peoples.
Kerry might possibly give NASA the axe, but so what? Does anyone really believe that NASA is capable of greatness these days? What is more important is that the country and its people are taken care of. We can not afford to be the 'world's police force' as yet another Republican administration has shown. We need to modernize this nation's infrastructure before we lose our status as a superpower. This, not terrorism, should be the focus of the nation.
Please don't let fear rule your reason wgc. This administration wants Americans to be afraid, it helps them rule and keeps the population distracted from more important issues. You are too smart to be manipulated this way. Remember, it's all smoke and mirrors....

Why do you assume I haven't seem farienhiet 911 or Moore's other films just because I haven't been turned by them.
I'm form Michigan , after all. I find his films amusing but I take them with a grain of salt.

Before I vote for any candidate I look at their record, I voted for Clinton, I would of done that even if I had some foresight into the whole Monica Lewinsky affair, If I time traveler appeared from a wormhole and brought me a dvd of the whole "I did not have sex with that women" testimony.. I would of still voted for Clinton.

Since this is a space advocacy forum, and thats what I am , not just pay lip service too, it would be very detrimental to me if Kerry axed Nasa. Your right about one thing we need to decide if we want to be the world's police men, that goes with being a superpower... But if the answer is the negative .. well were is a good asteroid when you need it.

deagleninja · 2004-09-07 20:56:24

Well I notice you didn't say you had seen it.

I have only seen Bowling for Columbine, Roger and Me, and his latest, but until this last one, I didn't find any of his films amusing. The feeling is something like swallowing nasty medicine, it's good for you, but man does it taste like crappola.

I'm glad you feel that way about Clinton, it shows that you can look at real issues and make your judgements on important facts not character assisination.

What disturbed me most about the 9/11 film wasn't Moore's commentary (he goes overboard at times) but images and footage that never once aired on television. For instance, the corporations holding a meeting to talk about how much money they can make and how the government is going to pay all their expensces. The footage of Bush just sitting there in that classroom was the most disturbing. I know he couldn't fly through the sky like superman and save the day, but I felt hurt that he didn't seem to care that a lot of Americans just died (granted he couldn't know the full scope of the disaster but he had to realize it was at least 100).

However, I couldn't disagree with you more about policing the world being needed to be a superpower. If a nation is fair and just it shouldn't need a massive army to keep the peace.

Am I against a huge military force, not really. What I am against is a huge military cost. Out of the roughly 2.2 trillion our government pulls in, 1/4 is spent on our military at peace, and another 1/4 is spent on the interest of our debt. I'm not saying through it out (although we could do without the debt) but surely we can do better can't we?

And wgc please don't be offended by anything I say. No matter how we may disagree on politics we both want to see humans speeding around the universe don't we?

I personally feel it is time to scrap NASA and start a new space program. We need a space program that will bring industrialization to the final frontier and this isn't even NASA's charter. I feel they are just getting in the way really, there's no hostility to it.

deagleninja · 2004-09-07 21:16:11

We have just reached a sad milestone. Over 1,000 Americans have been lost in Iraq since the war began. Just so you know, I don't think this is 'great news for Kerry!'. This a truly sad day for America and I can only hope and pray that in the end it will be worth all those young lives.

comstar03 · 2004-09-07 23:29:06

wgc,

Don't worry If Kerry gets in and tries to axe NASA, I know for a fact that all the corporations in USA that relay on NASA Contracts would make it plan to congress and senate that their political lives are on the line.

However it doesn't mean, It might change and reduce the commercial or non-strategic defence components of NASA ( only meeting existing contracts eg. ISS ) and leave the military aspects running and turn into a branch of DOD.

Cobra Commander · 2004-09-08 06:10:31

Okay, should have "Fahrenheit 9/11" in... three days. Stupid bittorrent. :angry:

Kerry might possibly give NASA the axe, but so what? Does anyone really believe that NASA is capable of greatness these days? What is more important is that the country and its people are taken care of.

??? Where to start... Okay, NASA is capable of greatness if ordered to do great things and given the funding. The problem is a lack of vision, a lack of direction.

So the American people need to be taken care of? Like children? Pets perhaps, incapable of fending for themselves in the mean ol' world. ???

But you want them to directly elect the President? The contradictions boggle the mind.

His father has tried to assist him by giving him most of his former staff, but I feel they have their own agendas in mind and not the peoples.

This is true of all politicians, with the possible exception of state and local pols who haven't been in the game long. National politicians all have their own agandas, and they don't give a damn about you, me or anyone else if doing so doesn't intersect with that agenda. There is no "Party for the little people" and the only time they "feel our pain" is when we make it felt.

I have only seen Bowling for Columbine, Roger and Me, and his latest, but until this last one, I didn't find any of his films amusing. The feeling is something like swallowing nasty medicine, it's good for you, but man does it taste like crappola.

Well, I can't speak for Roger and Me but Bowling for Columbine alternated between humorous and utterly vile showboating. It wasn't like swallowing medicine so much as... crappola. Better than I thought it'd be, but the same spirit.

I know he couldn't fly through the sky like superman and save the day, but I felt hurt that he didn't seem to care that a lot of Americans just died

His reaction wasn't all that odd. Kerry has admitted that he too was stunned to inaction. What do you do? Scream, cry, run around arms flailing, jump to your feet with fists clenched shouting "they will pay for this outrage! Destroy them my minions!"

Whatever he did at that moment would be criticized, and in the end it wouldn't have mattered anyway.

However, I couldn't disagree with you more about policing the world being needed to be a superpower. If a nation is fair and just it shouldn't need a massive army to keep the peace.

And if the laws are fair and just the police shouldn't need guns. :;):

We have just reached a sad milestone. Over 1,000 Americans have been lost in Iraq since the war began.

And watch who politicizes it. Sad, but it's coming.

Don't worry If Kerry gets in and tries to axe NASA, I know for a fact that all the corporations in USA that relay on NASA Contracts would make it plan to congress and senate that their political lives are on the line.

Quite right, but we must ask ourselves what is worse; scrapping NASA or turning (or leaving) the entire agency into pork. Neither helps us get anything done.

C M Edwards · 2004-09-08 13:26:43

Maybe I will end up abstaining from the US presidential election after all... just focus on the Senate seat and local issues... resign myself to four years of sub-vocal whining...

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#276 2004-09-07 08:14:51

Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

#277 2004-09-07 08:25:40

Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

#278 2004-09-07 08:51:44

Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

#279 2004-09-07 09:42:01

Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

#280 2004-09-07 10:12:49

Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

#281 2004-09-07 12:46:53

Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

#282 2004-09-07 12:58:36

Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

#283 2004-09-07 13:15:44

Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

#284 2004-09-07 13:28:01

Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

#285 2004-09-07 13:30:23

Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

#286 2004-09-07 14:10:45

Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

#287 2004-09-07 14:11:45

Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

#288 2004-09-07 14:15:48

Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

#289 2004-09-07 14:20:31

Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

#290 2004-09-07 14:27:16

Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

#291 2004-09-07 14:35:47

Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

#292 2004-09-07 16:50:19

Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

#293 2004-09-07 17:06:34

Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

#294 2004-09-07 19:20:56

Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

#295 2004-09-07 19:36:20

Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

#296 2004-09-07 20:56:24

Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

#297 2004-09-07 21:16:11

Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

#298 2004-09-07 23:29:06

Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

#299 2004-09-08 06:10:31

Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

#300 2004-09-08 13:26:43

Re: Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

Board footer