Religion vs Science

smurf975 · 2004-09-02 12:05:26

I think God set the parameters, He made the basic laws, then He opened his hands and let it all begin.

This statement holds until you think of the posibility of micro universes in black holes with different parameters.

One certain fact; I read once is that the speed of light is lower then billions of years ago. So the parameters seem to change. But this could also have to do with the expanding of the universe I'm not sure.

smurf975 · 2004-09-02 12:33:09

The main theme in the first testament of the bible is "an eye for an eye". In a complete reversal is the theme of the second testament "forgive and forget".

Another thing that changed is that God was not only anymore for Jews but for all people that accept him.

I used to think that this showed an evolution in God Himself. Maybe He was trying to figure out the best policy for these humans He created? But you know, that just didn't sit well with me. God is supposed to be perfect and all powerful and while I do not believe He actually is I just couldn't get myself to believe that He would so drastically change His guidance for us

Why did God chance his message? Because humans unlike God are not perfect. So you will need to adapt your communication to their level.

Also when the human ate the apple in paradise they basically said to God: "I want to make my own mistakes and learn from them." Like children, you can tell them what's good and not but eventually they will need to learn it on their own and they want it that way.

So God from now on has basically one hand tied to his back when someone cries for his help. But like a good parent with children that just moved out of the house he now and then tries to help. If he still does so nowadays is a matter if you believe in miracles or not.

Also being a perfect being he may find it boring to know all and to make no mistakes and so he created humans in a way he would have wanted to be himself. Like a 100 year old that has seen all and done all but still looks at teenagers and their many faults as something that is fun to be.

God does not get involved with the day to day goings on of the universe. He created the universe with a balance. Matter-energy, light-dark, good-bad...

Personally I don't believe in good and bad. Or else animals would be bad too. Its just the way nature works.

Also this solves the question of "Why does God allow bad things to happen to good people?" Because He is not involved, His servants are or were. I believe the angels tried to help us in the past but maybe they backed off after we constantly misunderstood and went against their teachings. Humans chose the golden calf over their involvement. We wanted to make our own decisions so that is the way it is.

Well even the biblical times God allowed people to do bad things. Didn't he allow them to kills Jesus?

Basically doesn't show his face because humans don't want it. Do you Earth to be heaven? What for, Earth is a great place, we just need a way and motivation to stop the horriable acts commited by a very small percentage of humans. Life on Earth is great way for a human to explore his acts, thoughts and to learn about other humans and life and hopefully better them selfs.

I wouldn't trade in this experience for anything. Heaven can wait its not going anywhere.

Maybe Earth is actually Hell but instead of being tortured, locked up and raped by evil devils, God is more left winged and Earth is place for bad humans to learn to live with each other, develop their cultures. Basically a rehabilitation planet and universe. We can't do harm to anyone but ourselfs but also have a posibility to learn to enhance our selfs and find good things.

smurf975 · 2004-09-02 12:53:53

Quite aside from religious considerations, when one thinks of the difficulties we humans already have overcome to make ourselves aware of the Universe to the extent we have--using nothing but our own physical senses, native intelligence, and ingenuity to augment these--one wonders what we are ultimately capable of. Alone in the universe for all practical purposes, don't you all who are aware of this feel an urgent need to preserve life--all life--and get on with our expansion "out there" as rapidly as possible, before it's too late?
*Good points, and yes -- what ARE we ultimately capable of?
Trouble seems to be: Are most people (in the West and developing nations at any rate; we can't expect hungry folks in sub-Saharan Africa to care about going to Mars when they don't know if they'll eat tomorrow) even interested in space exploration and "getting on with it"?
Seems to me they're much more concerned about the latest fashion trends and who's winning what medal at the Olympics, etc.
Sometimes it feels trying to drum up enough interest in progress and capability (as science goes) is akin to the old "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink" adage.
There's so much pettiness and unthinking herd following amongst we humans...I wonder if we'll ever get a chance to fully demonstrate our capabilities and potential (in a beneficial, progressive manner).
--Cindy

Where most common people interested in Colombus's expidition? I don't think so. When did at first normal people seem to be interested? When they found gold.

When did other people became interested in Nort America? Population pressure, hunger and bad local politics.

So from a pure scientific sence a lot of humans are not interested in exploration only if there is something for them there personally but humans at this moment in time with writing and all can learn from their pasts and realise that exploration is a good thing and thats why most people accept to pay taxes for NASA's funding.

However its not high on common peoples agenda's because they don't believe (and nor can Nasa proof that it will ) it will change their personal lives.

Beyond nationlistic propaganda space is a risky adventure with smalll (or none) short and mid term yields. In 500 years it could be something but then everyone who lives no is long long dead.

smurf975 · 2004-09-02 13:43:37

A universe as complex as the one in which we live, with the conditions for life and consciousness to evolve forming out of cosmic accident is remarkable; but to suppose that an omnitient, all powerful being simply existed out of nothing and created all we see for whatever reason... that strikes me as an extraordinary claim.

I'm halfway through the book An Elegant Universe which is about general relativity, the other relativity (forgot the name) and quantum physics.

Basically if you would have an infinite microscope and would look at fabric of space you will not see a perfectly clear stretched material. It's more spongy. All the time at quantum scales, energy and matter (which is energy) seem to come to excistance in a matter of quantum seconds and then die again. Where does this come from? And quantum mechanics doesn't seem always to follow the laws of physics that we know of. Sometimes it just does things.

Or a more bad example are particle accelarators. You smash two protons and from no where you will find all sorts of exotic particles like anti matter.

So from this point of view it looks like energy seems to come from somewhere else. Heck even the big bang theory confirms this. As you in your remark, you will just have to ask where did this energy come from? However this doesn't prove a higher being watching over us. Just that matter (energy) seems to have come to excistance in this universe from nowhere or another place which is already a big deal.

smurf975 · 2004-09-02 14:01:24

Here's another thought. What if the traditional, supernatural concept of God is all wrong. If God exists and can be explained by science, does it cease to be God?

Basically I think if God doesn't like to be questioned he would not have created humans with brains.

I think God would be glad of it as it would be like the student exceeding the teacher.

As God does allow you do disagree with him or else the whole fallen angels (devils) mess wouldn't excist.

But really I think that now the having of souls and heaven can be explained by pseudo science. A soul is a form of (exotic) energy that has consciousness from which come free will and other factors. Heaven is another dimension which the energy (soul) enters when the biological energy stops.

Perhaps the heaven you are thinking of just another step. Maybe there you will evolve into some other being and go to heaven reloaded

smurf975 · 2004-09-02 14:07:46

This makes me think of two things:
1. God and religion are both manmade, or
2. God is like a kid with a stick stirring up an ant pile. Remember 'Q' from Star Trek TNG?

I want to add to this:
3. All problems on Earth are manmade.

I think if God had to step in and stop humans when they are not following the rules of the old testament no more then a few humans will be alive (think noah's ark)

Its better for humans to learn to deal with their own problems instead of some father figure needs to step in sort out their problems each time. Or else how else will they ever learn?

smurf975 · 2004-09-02 14:19:03

I think that the bible is written fractal programme based on time travel, with a serious resurrection principle, just as Douglas Adams has the Improbability Drive in the heart of gold and Heisenberg, the uncertainty principle.
Understanding the symbolism of the Bible with the view that Jesus wanted to go to space, the Bible could be seen as the document containing the information waiting to be unlocked.
Why is God confined to 10 Dimentions?
I can see that shape of 10 cubes in 3D is abstractly a Galaxy shape, but a 3D shape that has an 11 shape is a 4 triangle with two in the middle. It has a constant of 4, through the middle. God's name is traditionally seen as a tetragrammaton four letter word, 72 of them apparently.

1
1 1
1 2 1
1 1 1 1

Actually if you read http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,128 … thead]this article your post doesn't seem that weird.

A teaser:

MUMBAI, India -- What is the square of 85? In an instant, a 17-year-old boy said without blinking, "7,225."
Kamlesh Shetty had used a trick from a quaint concept called Vedic math, a compilation of arithmetic shortcuts believed to have been written by ancient Indians who lived centuries before Christ, during a glorious period in Indian history called the Vedic Age. Its math has now crawled into the 21st century to further Shetty's dream of cracking a nasty engineering entrance exam.

But I think on the other hand you one of those people that if the actual talk was about 30 dimensions would see something in the bible about 30 dimensions and hidden messages.

Stargrail · 2004-09-02 17:21:47

But I think on the other hand you one of those people that if the actual talk was about 30 dimensions would see something in the bible about 30 dimensions and hidden messages.

Thanks for your comments. I have more of a belief in Star Trek. Not into organized religion, I see truth in number.

As you mention 30, to me it's the minimum line constant sum of a 4x4 Magic Square. I understand that number to also be associated with basic self awareness in terms of a tetrahedron, according to Magic Square Sharing rules. If it's seen as 3 ten shapes absractly that's 3 galaxies. It's also the sum of the surface of an approriately arranged stellated terahedron.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-07-02 16:51:52

What if ALIENS also make prayer to some space fairy sky god?

Musk is full of surprises

I did not expect this
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1543050489050402816

kbd512 · 2022-07-02 18:15:44

Mars_B4_Moon,

I'm continually surprised by the number of people who simply cannot leave well enough alone. All the negative comments over a simple photograph are baffling. He took a photo with the Pope, not Hitler or Mao or Stalin. The lives of these people doing the commenting must be truly horrendous to warrant such a response. They're a bunch of psychotic groupies. Prior to Mars_B4_Moon sharing this, I had no clue that Elon Musk even met the Pope. After learning of this, I still don't care in the slightest. Why do all these other people care, one way or the other, who Elon Musk snaps a photo with?

I don't understand the need to share your private life with the world, but I certainly don't understand the need of these people to put down others who are not perfect copies of themselves. It's a photo of 5 or 6 people standing in a building. One thing is quite certain, though, and that is the fact that 100% of the people commenting, one way or the other, have never accomplished a tiny fraction of what Elon Musk has achieved, on behalf of humanity.

kbd512 · 2022-07-02 18:31:43

The more I see people fixate on their personal beliefs and try to apply them to everyone else, the more I'm like, "Nah, bro, you do you, but let everyone else do them."

Despite being an atheist, I would never waste my time trying to get religious people to believe what I believe. Harassing, chiding, mocking, and threatening them over their religion of choice is, to be frank, what I've seen other religious people do. That's not something I want to waste my time on. Not only do I not want to change them, I also see that as being counter-productive and a total waste of everyone's time. It's part of their identity. The moment you start messing with core beliefs, it's vanishingly rare that "good things happen".

Christopher Hitchens, someone I still go back and listen to every so often, once opined that if there was less religion in the world, then that would somehow be a good thing. Oh, really? Where's the evidence for that? I can't see any. All I see is people replacing beliefs that were slightly nutty but mostly relatively harmless with profoundly immoral and anti-social views of the world that border on nihilism. And for what? Because most of them can't admit that their personal beliefs are every bit as neurotic as the next person?

SpaceNut · 2022-07-02 18:41:39

Photo ops are funny especially when if you go down the page to another you see another not so religious image.

kbd512 · 2022-07-02 19:08:38

Twitter and whatever other online / anti-social media have becoming sewing circles filled with jealous, spiteful, and/or angry people, which unironically describes what too many sewing circles became over time. I'm trying to imagine the upside to living your life that way, but can't think of any, not that I'd ever try to convince anyone different. If it's not evident to them, then it's not.

There are times when I wonder what Mr. Musk's thought process was for taking ownership of a sewing circle, but I don't care one way or the other if he does or doesn't. Town squares are town squares because you interact with real live people. Text messages are not human interactions, in the same way that books, as good or terrible as some are, also don't qualify as human-to-human interactions.

Maybe I'm just old-fashioned and don't understand. I met my wife in person. I talk to my children in-person, whenever possible. All of our dogs literally "came into our lives" through personal interaction. We didn't go "looking online" for them. I don't see how you can remove human-to-human interaction and still derive meaning and context. People are not products. You're not "going shopping".

For technical endeavors such as programming or space exploration, I can see how technology such as the internet is very useful. I also think more could be accomplished by meeting in-person, though I realize how impractical that would be. I see a place for these technologies, but I don't see how humanity truly benefits from them, given the way they're presently used.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-07-27 10:41:24

Paganism plus primitive sciences, old like the Egypt Pyramids.

Stonehenge was likely and ancient solar calendar. According to a new study, a circle of 30 upright "sarsen" stones marked the days each month. Four stones on the outside of the circle tracked leap years. The top of the circle illuminated during summer solstice, and the bottom during winter solstice.

Leap year and how we deal with the fact that a year is 365.242 days long?

https://astronomy.com/news/2022/07/ston … r-calendar

A new study explains how the ancient solar calendar may have worked at Stonehenge — and why it was constructed in the first place.

Rationality, Religion, and Art
https://marswillsendnomore.wordpress.co … n-and-art/

One of the unaddressed, human problems for atheists is the concept of irrationality. While I feel that Richard Dawkins and his Foundation for Reason and Science are a good example of the intellectual trend that needs to become more widespread in America and across the globe, an appeal to humans to be completely rational faces an intractable problem. Despite our capacity for reason and rationality, we also experience life in non-rational ways.

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-08-14 03:37:06)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-03-28 08:06:04

The "Stonehenge calendar" shown to be a modern construct

https://www.spacedaily.com/reports/The_ … t_999.html

Stonehenge is an astonishingly complex monument, which attracts attention mostly for its spectacular megalithic circle and "horseshoe", built around 2600 BC.

Over the years, several theories have been put forward about Stonehenge's meaning and function. Today, however, archaeologists have a rather clear picture of this monument as a "place for the ancestors", located within a complex ancient landscape which included several other elements.

Archaeoastronomy has a key role in this interpretation since Stonehenge exhibits an astronomical alignment to the sun which, due to the flatness of the horizon, refers both to the summer solstice sunrise and to the winter solstice sunset. This accounts for a symbolic interest of the builders in the solar cycle, most probably related to the connections between the afterlife and winter solstice in Neolithic societies

This is, of course, very far from saying that the monument was used as a giant calendrical device, as instead has been proposed in a new theory published in the renewed Archaeology Journal Antiquity. According to this theory, the monument represents a calendar based on 365 days per year divided into 12 months of 30 days plus five epagomenal days, with the addition of a leap year every four. This calendar is identical to the Alexandrian one, introduced more than two millennia later, at the end of the first century BC as a combination of the Julian calendar and the Egyptian civil calendar.

To justify this "calendar in stone", the number of the days is obtained by multiplying the 30 sarsen lintels (probably) present in the original project by 12 and adding to 360 the number of the standing trilithons of the Horseshoe, which is five. The addition of a leap year every four is related to the number of the "station stones", which is, indeed, four. This machinery was allegedly kept in operation using the solstice alignment of the axis and was supposedly taken from Egypt, much refining, however, the Egyptian calendar, which was of 365 days (the leap year correction was not present until Roman times).

This is the admittedly fascinating theory that has been subjected to a severe stress test by two renewed experts of Archaeoastronomy, Juan Antonio Belmonte (Instituto de Astrofisica de Canarias and Universidad de La Laguna, Tenerife, Spain) and Giulio Magli (Politecnico of Milan). In their paper, which is going to be published on Antiquity as well, the authors show that the theory is based on a series of forced interpretations of the astronomical connections of the monument, as well as on debatable numerology and unsupported analogies.

First of all, astronomy. Although the solstice alignment is quite accurate, Magli and Belmonte show that the slow movement of the sun at the horizon in the days close to solstices makes it impossible to control the correct working of the alleged calendar, as the device (remember: composed by huge stones) should be able to distinguish positions as accurate as a few arc minutes, that is, less than 1/10 of one degree. So, while the existence of the axis does show interest in the solar cycle in a broad sense, it provides no proof whatsoever for inferring the number of days of the year conceived by the builders.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-09-16 17:05:57

Historical observations 'Archaeoastronomy' these times of past humanity from Greece to Egypt to China and Rome and Mesopotamia and so many cultures and peoples were also ages of reason not only religion

Evidence of mysterious 'recurring nova' that could reappear in 2024 found in medieval manuscript from 1217
https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/evidenc … 43164.html

In 1217, a German monk looked to the starry southwest sky and noticed a normally faint star shining with unusual intensity. It continued to blaze for several days. Abbott Burchard, the leader of Ursberg Abbey at the time, recorded the sight in that year's chronicle. "A wonderful sign was seen," he wrote, adding that the mysterious object in the constellation Corona Borealis "shone with great light" for "many days."
This medieval manuscript may have been the first record of a rare space phenomenon called a recurrent nova — a dead star siphoning matter from a larger companion, triggering repeated flares of light at regular intervals. According to new research, the "wonderful" star in question may be T CrB, which sits in the constellation Corona Borealis and dramatically increases in brightness for about a week every 80 years. But it has been scientifically documented only twice — once in 1866, and again in 1946. (The star’s next long-awaited flare-up is expected in 2024).

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-11-23 09:00:00

Studied Law and following the ousting of Kevin McCarthy from the speakership, Johnson was elected as the 56th speaker of the House. He questioned the scientific consensus that climate change is caused by humans. In 2016, Johnson delivered a sermon that called the teaching of evolution one of the causes of mass shootings: "People say, 'How can a young person go into their schoolhouse and open fire on their classmates?' Because we've taught a whole generation—a couple generations now—of Americans: that there's no right or wrong, that it's about survival of the fittest, and you evolve from the primordial slime. Why is that life of any sacred value? Because there's nobody sacred to whom it's owed."

links to an African American kid arrested more than a dozen times? Michael Tirrell James admits he would ‘probably be in prison’ were it not for Johnson
more than a dozen mugshots for his numerous arrests

He voice support for the George Floyd rioters?

Supports Reparations and BLM and has an ‘adopted’ 40-year-old son with a lengthy criminal history?
https://www.newsweek.com/mike-johnsons- … ut-1840867

https://nypost.com/2023/11/03/news/mike … -revealed/

These are Florida arrests alone for the “adopted” son of Speaker Mike Johnson. Extensive record is an understatement.
https://twitter.com/still_boneless/stat … 9473534021

some headlines said Ultra-Conservative or Christian rightwing faction

He's been around a while but a new guy arrives on the tv as new house speaker Mike Johnson, theocratic?

New House Speaker Thinks Creationist Museum Is 'Pointing People To The Truth'
https://news.yahoo.com/house-speaker-th … 36048.html

Mars_B4_Moon · 2024-03-30 11:23:10

Russian Orthodox Church proposes ultranationalist ideology to Kremlin – ISW
https://www.yahoo.com/news/russian-orth … 06455.html

decades of inactivity

blamed the country’s decades-long pause in lunar exploration for the mishap.
https://apnews.com/article/russia-moon- … 84cfd337be

Taliban’s education ban forces girls and women into ‘dull’ online classes
https://www.thehindu.com/news/internati … 974956.ece

Some Jewish religion leaders come out with statements of near insanity while at times Palestinians are the target of violence by Israeli settlers and their supporters, predominantly in the West Bank.

The Israeli settlers shrugging off sanctions to menace the West Bank
https://www.ft.com/content/8a6a3e01-0f9 … 9e6fd030d4

On campaign trail, Hinduism gets drained of its commanding complexity
https://indianexpress.com/article/opini … h-9236943/

Circus of the Absurd: Creationists vs Flat Earth
https://skeptical-science.com/critical- … lat-earth/

the ancient and medieval worlds knew of belief and religions and prayer and rituals but they did not have conceptions resembling the modern understandings of "science" or of "religion" the subject of modern "Science" emerged in the 19th century in attempts to narrowly define those who studied nature, physics, chemicals and math as science subjects, some priests and religious people embraced the science but conflict thesis wrote there is an intrinsic intellectual conflict between religion and science, .

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2024-03-30 11:36:54)

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#76 2004-09-02 12:05:26

Re: Religion vs Science

#77 2004-09-02 12:33:09

Re: Religion vs Science

#78 2004-09-02 12:53:53

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#79 2004-09-02 13:43:37

Re: Religion vs Science

#80 2004-09-02 14:01:24

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#81 2004-09-02 14:07:46

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#82 2004-09-02 14:19:03

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#83 2004-09-02 17:21:47

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#84 2022-07-02 16:51:52

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#85 2022-07-02 18:15:44

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#86 2022-07-02 18:31:43

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#87 2022-07-02 18:41:39

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#88 2022-07-02 19:08:38

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#89 2022-07-27 10:41:24

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#90 2023-03-28 08:06:04

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#91 2023-09-16 17:05:57

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