Empire vs Rebel Alliance

Palomar · 2004-08-31 15:03:33

*Carrying this over from the other thread.

Okay, Cobra Commander. I'm curious to know why you would (it seems, based on your other comments) side with the Empire, if "Star Wars" were real. I'll add my own thoughts as we progress...

--Cindy

Cobra Commander · 2004-08-31 15:24:14

Assuming the viewpoint of an average citizen, you wouldn't see the Emperor as this evil old man that shoots lightning out of his hands, but as the aged Chancellor Palpatine, all around good guy. Even if he is that evil old man who shoots lightning.

Of note early in Star Wars is Luke's desire to go to the Academy, not some secret Rebel "good guy" academy but an Imperial military school to train fighter pilots. Even the film's hero wanted to join with the Empire, though not for ideological reasons.

So from that perspective the Imperial military is the legitimate bearer of arms, heir to the peacekeeping role of the Jedi but far more egalitarian and inclusive. The Rebels are just that, malcontent extremists that blow stuff up and kill people.

The Empire allows private ownership of hyperspace capable spacecraft, freedom of movement. Private ownership and carrying of weapons seems permitted, everyone seems to have a blaster at their side or at least stashed in their speeder. We don't really get an idea of the state of "free speech" from the films, except that droids with secret Death Star plans are not a subject of discussion. We don't really get the impression of a severely repressive society, though I do wonder about the tax rates.

The Rebels fight to restore the Republic, but the Empire did not destroy the Republic, rather it collapsed under its own rotting bulk and the Empire emerged to prevent the galaxy from descending into chaos. Further, the rebellion is led by a collection of former Senators, the very class of people whose greed and corruption brought down the Republic in the first place. We don't know what they plan to do after winning the war, the best we can hope for is that they will attempt to restore the Republic but with an army to maintain order rather than the now extinct Jedi.

The Empire is choosing targets out of military imperatives, though excessive force is brought to bear in some cases. Alderaan is the extreme case, though we're given reason to believe that it was a Rebel enclave destroyed only because Leia refused to give them "another target, a military target" in the words of Tarkin. Further, Leia is captured aboard a diplomatic transport which is smuggling classified documents with the intent of turning them over to the Rebels. She is travelling under the protection of her planet and presumably the Empire on a mission to aid insurgents bent on the overthrow of the government, and while she is identified as a Senator! Vader rightly characterizes her as "traitor."

So we have an arguably legitimate government with a history of excessive force against insurgents versus a small faction of extremist guerrillas led by ex-Senators who fly around attacking shipping lanes and blowing stuff up, and have shown no indication that they plan to do anything better than what failed before should the win the fight.

Empire = order and security. Rebels = chaos and uncertainty. Most citizens, when not oppressed severely will choose the former. The Empire is a more defensible position, with the Rebels we have to assume a high degree of faith in their intentions and ability to improve the lot of the average citizen, who isn't doing that bad as long as he keeps his head up and mouth shut in certain company. ???

Of course in all seriousness I'd probably find myself with the Rebellion somewhere along the line, just because I have a problem with authority. Particualrly when it hides behind a mask and jabbers on about some all-powerful force controlling... everything. No mystical energy field controls my destiny.

Palomar · 2004-09-01 06:38:32

*The Empire has no credibility. It is a merciless, freedom-smashing dictatorship. The Emperor and his First Puppet (Darth Vader) will destroy anyone and any entity which doesn't bow to them. (By the way, a fan of Star Wars I once knew was really miffed at the way Vader's character was changed from the first film to the sequels: In the 1st he was master lord and supreme commander; in the sequels he was kneeling before his master).

Master and slave defines the Empire. Is that orderly? Sure. But not the sort of order I like.

Destroy an entire planet filled with innocent civilians to prove a point to a Senator? Foolish and wasteful -- and criminal.

***

The Republic is in a shambles. Maybe not everyone against the Empire IS for the restoration of the Republic (perhaps, for those folks, it serves as a mere rallying point). But the Rebel Alliance IS fighting for security, freedom, peace and order. Currently it is chaotic (all things begin in chaos form), but eventually order will be found and is already evident.

The RA is good for the galaxy. The Empire is not.

--Cindy

Palomar · 2004-09-01 06:58:34

The Rebels are just that, malcontent extremists that blow stuff up

*Sweeping overgeneralization and unfair, IMO.

If someone breaks into my home and attempts to harm me, I'll be terribly "malcontent" and attempt to disable that person to the best of my ability.

The Empire (criminal) provoked this reaction. The Rebel Alliance (victim) has a right to defend itself.

--Cindy

GCNRevenger · 2004-09-01 07:54:38

Ah yes, the typical "Empire bad, Republic good!" kneejerk...

Time for a little history lesson... anticent Athens, the only truely democratic and soverign city/state that has ever really exsisted, where every male literally had a say in the governance of the state. Now, why is this method of government, theoreticly ideal, being used today? Why don't I have a personal vote on the issues of government that hold control over my life and limit my freedom?

Because it just isn't practical, there is no way to hold debate and vote and such over such a large number of people... So we use a system of political intermediaries called Republic to overcome the problem: corruption of power by the intermediaries can be guarded against by mechanisms to remove substantial numbers of them and change the balence of power... Now, lets magnify the problem again by another several orders of magnetude, to where there are not millions, not billions, but many Trillions of sentients...

You saw the Senate chaimber in the preqs, yes? By the same reasoning at Athens, Republic cannnot work on the scale of tens of Trillions either, member worlds don't carry any political power at all hardly, what good is one vote against thousands? How can you have a voice in the debate of such a body? And what defense is there against corruption if your vote is all but worthless?

This is why Republic is good on Earth, but bad in the Star Wars Galaxy... the Republic has been barely held together for centuries by corrupt senators and a band of Secret Police called the JEDI... This order, agency, whatever you wish to call it, at their height has the power to see the future and deal with "problems" before they can manifest... they also make dandy secret police, with the power to read minds to exert "influence," and are unstoppable assasins at the bec and call of the senators.

There must be one central authority... an emperor

Cobra Commander · 2004-09-01 08:03:55

Destroy an entire planet filled with innocent civilians to prove a point to a Senator? Foolish and wasteful -- and criminal.

Yes, a trifle excessive. But drastic measures are required to reach this rabble.

(In full Imperial officer mode now)

Maybe not everyone against the Empire IS for the restoration of the Republic (perhaps, for those folks, it serves as a mere rallying point).

Ah, so they're lying to the populace to further their own ends. How noble.

The RA is good for the galaxy. The Empire is not.

Only if war is good for the galaxy. Unending, low intensity war taking the public attention from other matters. These terrorists are indeed good for the galaxy. They are good for the Empire despite themselves.

If someone breaks into my home and attempts to harm me, I'll be terribly "malcontent" and attempt to disable that person to the best of my ability.

The Empire evolved from the emergency powers granted to a duly elected (by the Senate) Chancellor of the Republic. It has not usurped the Republic but picked up its remains and carried on. The Rebellion is an intruder, an infestation within the Empire's "house" as it were. The Empire has among its responsibilities the maintenance of order and the protection of its citizens. The Rebels are a direct threat to both and must be dealt with swiftly and with whatever force is required.

Alderaan is an unfortunate casualty, but their collective sedition brought ruin upon their own heads. They harbored terrorists and therefore are terrorists.

The Empire (criminal) provoked this reaction. The Rebel Alliance (victim) has a right to defend itself.

How can the victim come into being after the alleged crime has been committed?

<glances at monitor>
What have we here? Another over-reaction on the part of Lord Vader it seems. Promotion time again.

Palomar · 2004-09-01 08:06:23

Ah yes, the typical "Empire bad, Republic good!" kneejerk...
There must be one central authority... an emperor

*Maybe yours is the kneejerk response. You resorted to insult...that says a whole lot right there. :laugh:

Not sure how anyone in their right mind could want that sort of centralized, totalitarian control but whatever...

--Cindy

Palomar · 2004-09-01 08:11:58

Maybe not everyone against the Empire IS for the restoration of the Republic (perhaps, for those folks, it serves as a mere rallying point).
Ah, so they're lying to the populace to further their own ends. How noble.

*Not necessarily lying. And I never got the impression from the film that -all- rebels sought to restore the Republic.

But I wouldn't fight for restoration of the Republic. I'd be hoping for the emergence of a better society to emerge from the war.

Again: Empire = master/slave. Not my cup of tea, thanks.

I'd be working to create a democratic, open society of human rights and etc.

--Cindy

Cobra Commander · 2004-09-01 09:27:50

But I wouldn't fight for restoration of the Republic. I'd be hoping for the emergence of a better society to emerge from the war.

That's a big gamble, given that the driving force of the Rebellion is geared toward rebuilding the Republic. Only they have other problems than just winning the war. Not only did the Republic fail due to its own inherent faults, but there is now an entire generation who knows the "Old Republic" only from Imperial history accounts and has seen the Senate as a powerless body in which rich aristocrats hang out and pretend they're important, until the Emperor dissolved it.

We've got three possibilities in this situation. Empire, restore the Republic, or clear the field and hope for the best.

The Republic was a fatally flawed system with corrupt people. The Empire is workable, but helmed by corrupt people. The third option is a total unknown, could end up with a utopia, but more likely a complete breakdown of galactic government. Each system turning inward, loss of cultural exchange and trade; wars, famine and for many a soul death. One big tyranny replaced by a thousand smaller, likely less restrained despots spread across the galaxy.

No, the best option is to remove the Empire's head while keeping the apparatus of government in place.

Palomar · 2004-09-01 09:37:45

The third option is a total unknown, could end up with a utopia, but more likely a complete breakdown of galactic government. Each system turning inward, loss of cultural exchange and trade; wars, famine and for many a soul death. One big tyranny replaced by a thousand smaller, likely less restrained despots spread across the galaxy.
No, the best option is to remove the Empire's head while keeping the apparatus of government in place.

*You're probably right, much as I'm remiss to admit it.

Still, I'd fight on the side which shows the most promise of securing liberty and etc. (along the lines of the Bill of Rights, Amensty International's human rights declaration, etc.). Pardon my ideology.

--Cindy

Cobra Commander · 2004-09-01 10:19:14

Still, I'd fight on the side which shows the most promise of securing liberty and etc. (along the lines of the Bill of Rights, Amensty International's human rights declaration, etc.).

And who's more likely to do that, reformers within the Empire or extremist terrorists? The Empire can be made to embody the ideals you hold without destroying it if only a few key personnel can be taken out. The Rebellion on the other hand is revolutionary in the sense that it aims to sweep away the current order while giving only fleeting consideration of what to replace it with based around an idealised fantasy of a failed system whose shortcomings resulted in the whole mess in the first place!

The Rebels are a dual-layered revolutionary movement, with the displaced lords of the old order at its head and legions of idealistic, uncompromising, dogmatic and violent youth fighting a war that is against everything and for nothing. The Rebellion is the greatest threat to life, liberty and order in the galaxy. They're more dangerous than you realise.

Palomar · 2004-09-01 10:36:07

And who's more likely to do that, reformers within the Empire....?

*What reformers in the Empire? Even speaking the word "reform" would be an automatic death sentence (never mind that the Emperor is an old and supremely powerful wizard...good luck ousting him).

The Rebels...legions of idealistic, uncompromising, dogmatic and violent youth fighting a war that is against everything and for nothing.

*Wow, that's really the sense you got from the films? They're for freedom, independence and survival and against the crushing boot of the Empire.

The Rebellion is the greatest threat to life, liberty and order in the galaxy. They're more dangerous than you realise

*I doubt it. And I'd refuse to serve the Empire or the Emperor. If anything, let's just say I always choose the lesser of two evils (and I'm not saying the RA -is- "evil"). The Empire can only grow more power-mad and malevolent. Something's got to stop it. The Republic may have been corrupt and etc., but at least its power was shared to an extent (which must have included a checks and balances system to a point); the Empire is totalitarian with just 1 person calling the shots.

Anyway, how to "remove the Empire's head while keeping the apparatus of government in place" -- ? Only rebels can do that, right? And at that point, what's the difference between a rebel and a reformer, and how would you define each?

--Cindy

Cobra Commander · 2004-09-01 11:12:02

*What reformers in the Empire? Even speaking the word "reform" would be an automatic death sentence (never mind that the Emperor is an old and supremely powerful wizard...good luck ousting him).

Certainly a low profile would be in order. Yet we don't really get a sense of the degree of repression within the Empire. We assume it to be severe, but from the films we just don't really know. Maybe you can talk about reform in certain areas, certain capacities. Just keep that whole "deposing the Emperor" thing under wraps. If nothing else the old coot has to die sometime, doesn't he?

*Wow, that's really the sense you got from the films? They're for freedom, independence and survival and against the crushing boot of the Empire.

Well, I'm going a little further than my actual impressions just for the sake of argument, but the Rebellion is defined by what it's against rather than what it's for. Freedom and independence to do what, precisely? How will this freedom be achieved or maintained? Survival, that one's easy. Play along.

I can sympathize with the impulse to join such a rebellion, but it isn't a particularly rational decision. The focus is on destroying an existing order with the vague idea of imposing a fantasy, somehow, later on. If they've got a plan, great. But so far the Rebs are a bit nebulous on their long-term plans.

*I doubt it. And I'd refuse to serve the Empire or the Emperor. If anything, let's just say I always choose the lesser of two evils (and I'm not saying the RA -is- "evil"). The Empire can only grow more power-mad and malevolent.

Or it could loosen up as time goes on. Stability breeds lax governance, a generation after the death of the Emperor things could be decent without waging a guerrilla campaign. Particularly if freedom-minded people work within the Empire rather than taking up arms against it in a largely futile struggle that actually serves to increase repression by focusing public anxiety and providing an excuse for whatever measures the government cares to enact in the name of "security."

the Empire is totalitarian with just 1 person calling the shots.

Do we know this for certain? The Emperor appears to wield absolute power. The Imperial military is massive, it must be to project even token force on a galactic scale.

But let's look back at Leia's diplomatic ship from Alderaan. The ship was filled with troops, not Imperial troops but native Alderaan forces. Local military and/or security forces, implying a local government with some authority. Apparently Imperial troops don't handle all policing functions, there is local autonomy to one degree or another.

We see Stormtroopers on Tattooine, though it seems that local government is weak or virtually non-existent, perhaps just the "law" of Hutt gangsters. The prequels seem to support this impression. Imperial troops, "federal" troops if you will would be needed in such a case as there is no local authority. In this case such a development would be an improvement for the average citizen, though they might resent it.

We don't have enough examples to say for certain, but it appears that each planet governs itself to a large degree, only drawing the wrath of the Imperial government for brazen support of seditious elements, such as was the case with Alderaan. It seems that life within the Empire could be quite free for many of its citizens. Some planets are likely more strict than others, and Coruscant is under direct Imperial authority as the seat of government, but totalitarian oppression is hardly a given.

Anyway, how to "remove the Empire's head while keeping the apparatus of government in place" -- ? Only rebels can do that, right? And at that point, what's the difference between a rebel and a reformer, and how would you define each?

I would define a "rebel" (small r) as anyone working against some aspect of the current accepted norm. But the Rebels (big R) are guerrillas or insurgents at best, terrorists at worse. Rather than focusing on specific elements that need removal, they focus on bringing down the Empire in its entirety.

The line can be a bit blurry though, for example the second Death Star attack could be justified on the grounds that it may be the only way to kill both Vader and the Emperor, but a plan should have been in place to seize certain key targets in the capitol as well. Though even the loss of the Emperor could be enough of an improvement, such an assassination at the hands of terrorists would result in a disorderly transfer of power even if left to proceed without further attacks.

We also don't know what happened after that attack. Some celebration is depicted in the rereleased Return of the Jedi, but it could just as easily have been sporadic outbursts that occurred while the authorities attended to more pressing matters as much as a celebration of the end of the Empire. The Rebels may have succeeded in reform despite themselves.

GCNRevenger · 2004-09-01 11:46:58

"Though even the loss of the Emperor could be enough of an improvement, such an assassination at the hands of terrorists would result in a disorderly transfer of power even if left to proceed without further attacks.

We also don't know what happened after that attack."

I think that there is enough information to say that we do know what happend following the assasination of Emperor Palpatine and Lord Vader... quite frankly, there is no possible way that the Rebel Alliance could ever defeat the whole of the Imperial military. By some counts, 25,000 star destroyers, two or three million TIE-fighter, billions of soldiers... The only plausable answer is that in the power vacuum left by the lack of a clear line of sucession, that there was a breif and extremely bloody civil war closer to the Galactic Core, far away from where the Rebels (and the story) operated, and the majority of Imperial power was destroyed... when the dust settled, then the Rebels surely just waltzed into the decimated, after shooting anyone and everyone (as some stories suggest), ruined capital and called itself The New Republic.

Can you imagine how many innocent people died for the Rebels' glorious revolution? ...And now they seek to re-enslave the galaxy, same old Senators, same Jedi secret police, same failed system...

To be quite frank, the amount of death, destruction, loss of property, and loss of liberty caused by revolution like this, the amount of injustice to justify this must be huge indeed... a much, much bigger greivence than what the Rebels' had to be worth such a tragedy.

Considering the scale of galactic government, a term of office of a lifetime is not too long.

Emperor Palpatine was an evil man... neither was Vader a good person... but they were one thing that the Senators and their republic was not, effective. There was order, peace, and to large degree freedom... As the saying goes, the trains did run on time. How do we know that Tarkin would not have been punished for his crime (blowing up Alderaan)?

Is a benevolent dictatorship of a national government with peace, order, and justice.. albeit peace of the gun.. Better than a failed government where none had their say anyway rule by Oligarchy for intents and purposes, enforced by the supernatural secret police the Jedi, and constant low-level violence? An Oligarchy, with members traded out now and then, would last for centuries... and it did.

Cobra Commander · 2004-09-01 12:12:42

I think that there is enough information to say that we do know what happend following the assasination of Emperor Palpatine and Lord Vader... quite frankly, there is no possible way that the Rebel Alliance could ever defeat the whole of the Imperial military.

Quite true, even if left to operate with no central command the Imperial military would be a foe the Rebels could not hope to subdue in open fighting. A bloody power struggle is a very possible outcome, but not the only one.

I know there have been books that cover the post-Jedi era, but I'm ignoring them for this discussion. We've all seen the movies, I'm gonna stick to that common body of reference. So that leaves us with some questions after the Emperor's death.

How widespread is communication throughout the Empire? The multi-planet celebration scenes at the end of Jedi seem to indicate that they have some near real-time galactic communication net that is used for general information dostribution, otherwise the public wouldn't even know that anything had happened.

What seems the most likely scenario to me is that a group of Imperial staff officers on Coruscant tries to take the reins and does so with reasonable success, but by the time word of the Emperor's death spread many systems gave the shaky Imperial government the digicus imputicus and went about their business.

So the big question is whether the Imperial military falls in line according to the established chain of command and deals with aggregious abuses by individual planetary governments one by one, or whether each Admiral, Moff, General and anyone else with a few of those plastic tabs on their tunic went off on their own thing, in which case we have hundreds if not thousands of private armies and navies pounding each other and anyone that gets in the way.

Maybe the Empire is intact with a junta replacing the Emperor, or maybe the galaxy is plunged into bloody civil war with no end in sight, unified galactic civilization forever lost. It's largely a question of how disciplined the Imperial officers are. Are we dealing predominately with professional soldiers geared toward preserving order and protecting the citizenry, or self-aggrandizing opportunists? If the former, all is well after a brief period of confusion and some local disorder. Otherwise, the Rebellion will have wrought evil the likes of which even the Devil himslef has not conceived.

GCNRevenger · 2004-09-01 13:01:20

Rapid communication is possible nearly galaxy-wide in the SW universe thanks to a galactic communications network built in the early days of the Old Republic, on or abouts... what probobly happend is that word secretly got back to the capital about the assasination but was kept quiet for a little while... perhaps officals declared the Emperor had "resigned" which precipitated the (edited-in to make the Empire evil-er) parties... Perhaps Vader the war hero, waging an effective war against Rebel Alliance terrorists, being touted as returning to Coruscant victorious at his liesure... any tall man in a black mask would do.

All the while, warlords and moffs and system lords bickerd in the shadows about who would lead, and eventually all talk broke down... one of them anounces to the galaxy that Palpatine and Vader are dead, and he assumes the title of Emperor... which touches off the civil war. Imperial soldiers, trained for absolute loyalty to the chain of command, follow their respective Admirals and Warlords, who are responsable for systems the soldiers live in quite likly, into battle to coronate their true Emperor. Just as the American civil war was so soaked with blood, this one with the terrible weapons and many more factions battling it out would be so much worse...

Cobra Commander · 2004-09-01 13:13:01

Seems like a plausible scenario.

Making destroying the Rebellion in the service of the Empire quite possibly the most moral and righteous activity possible, given the horrors that would result from its fall.

A little bit of rigid authoritarianism and some excessive use of force, or a galaxy wide slaughterfest spanning years if not decades with billions if not trillions dead, starving, maimed, homeless or toiling in slavery not of the law but the whip. I know which I'd choose.

Not that a little non-sanctioned resistance is never called for. I probably wouldn't be above blasting a Stormtrooper or two if the situation called for it. :;):

smurf975 · 2004-09-01 19:31:24

Now, lets magnify the problem again by another several orders of magnetude, to where there are not millions, not billions, but many Trillions of sentients...
You saw the Senate chaimber in the preqs, yes? By the same reasoning at Athens, Republic cannnot work on the scale of tens of Trillions either, member worlds don't carry any political power at all hardly, what good is one vote against thousands? How can you have a voice in the debate of such a body? And what defense is there against corruption if your vote is all but worthless?

Basically isn't the EU facing the same problems? I mean you have three countries (Italy, France and Germany) which have huge economies compared to the other member states.

If France and Germany want to something to happen it will happen. If Denmark or Belgium want something to happen, well, I think you can guess.

Also each european state has its own culture and most of them also their own language. So that another problem.

However at the end of the day they seem to manage. But then there are no racial differences, and certainly not species differences. And also the culture differences are not that big.

However it's still an example that it can work.

smurf975 · 2004-09-01 20:12:46

Reading the discussion it made me think of the Empire as WWII Nazis and the rebels as the allies.

The arguments in this thread do support that idea. Like the Empire, the Nazis rule was a dictatorship which came from a collapsed Republic, not hated by European people in general in the beginning, the inner core had some occult religion going for them but the commoners and army generals where more "earthy", conquered members did have anatomy (as long as they supported the Emporer/Hitler), stabilty and security ruled the first years (until the rebels (allies) changed that by declaring war).

However after the Nazis entered western soviet union (georgia, belarus) and actually were welcomed by the local people but then the nazis went basically on a killing sprea (destroying planet in SW trilogy) and from that the rebels (allies) got more support.

Reading some weeks ago on the internet (gossip) that its possible that there will be episodes 7,8 and 9 of star wars. Its would interesting to know if the former (rebels) like in post WWII war entered a cold war. Maybe some of the rebel worlds don't want mindreading jedi secret police anymore (its the jedi's that caused all of this mess at the end, Darth Vader and the Emporer were former jedi's). Which is logical from a point of view because as long as their are jedi's their will be Sith.

GCNRevenger · 2004-09-01 20:15:49

The European Union is nothing compared to the whole galaxy though... not a dozen states which are only somewhat unified, but a thousand worlds with far more diverse peoples... a government with a few Frances with hundreds and hundreds of "less influential" worlds would simply not work.

Not that the EU is a central, federal, soverign nation anyway.

smurf975 · 2004-09-01 20:25:01

The European Union is nothing compared to the whole galaxy though... not a dozen states which are only somewhat unified, but a thousand worlds with far more diverse peoples... a government with a few Frances with hundreds and hundreds of "less influential" worlds would simply not work.
Not that the EU is a central, federal, soverign nation anyway.

How about the UN then? This organization looks more like the Star Wars Republic.

Actually this proves your point as the UN will never be able to rule the world, well only if the whole of the G7 plus Russia fully supported the idea and then only by use military power.

BWhite · 2004-09-01 20:25:04

More David Brin on Star Wars:

Lucas defends his elitist view, telling the New York Times, "That's sort of why I say a benevolent despot is the ideal ruler. He can actually get things done. The idea that power corrupts is very true and it's a big human who can get past that."
In other words a royal figure or demigod, anointed by fate. (Like a billionaire moviemaker?)
Lucas often says we are a sad culture, bereft of the confidence or inspiration that strong leaders can provide. And yet, aren't we the very same culture that produced George Lucas and gave him so many opportunities? The same society that raised all those brilliant experts for him to hire -- boldly creative folks who pour both individual inspiration and cooperative skill into his films? A culture that defies the old homogenizing impulse by worshipping eccentricity, with unprecedented hunger for the different, new or strange? It what way can such a civilization be said to lack confidence?

In other words, the motto of George W. Bush!

WRONG, but STRONG! No girlie men allowed.

GCNRevenger · 2004-09-01 20:25:32

It is not quite like that... the Old Republic collapsed because of the inherint flaws in its structure, that would inevitibly lead to collapse without the Jedi secret police. It is quite possible the Republic would limp along for another century and become even more corrupt and ineffective unless Palpatine, Darth Sidious, et al. broke the Jedi.

And what if only one German general (Tarkin) went and tried to invade Russia and the other countries? The whole of Germany would not be blamed... that sort of thing. The history of Nazi Germany and the Galactic Empire aren't quite convergant. The Empire really does concern itself more with terrorism too, kind of like America today, in the form of the violent Rebel Alliance.

smurf975 · 2004-09-01 20:30:28

And what if only one German general (Tarkin) went and tried to invade Russia and the other countries? The whole of Germany would not be blamed... that sort of thing.

Do know of Rommel?

The history of Nazi Germany and the Galactic Empire aren't quite convergant. The Empire really does concern itself more with terrorism too, kind of like America today, in the form of the violent Rebel Alliance.

Well the resistance were considered terrorists by the Nazis. Like they say one mans freedom fighter is another mans ....

GCNRevenger · 2004-09-01 20:32:06

Yes, the UN is an excelent example of Republic's (the system) limitations... its so bad that its not really funny. Only the Security Council ("the nuclear club") get to make serious economic, political, and military decisions, and the General Assembly is practicly useless because of the dispursion of power between too many countries. For a Star Wars example, see Naboo, where the Senate decided to "elect a comittee" to "discuss" the problem of a member world being blockaded and invaded... and the corruption? The $11 billion dollar UN Oil for Food scandal, exibit #1. Trade Federation, exibit #2...

Now try that on a galaxy with a thousand worlds and trillions of people... the Jedi were the only thing keeping the contraption glued together.

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#21 2004-09-01 20:25:01

Re: Empire vs Rebel Alliance

#22 2004-09-01 20:25:04

Re: Empire vs Rebel Alliance

#23 2004-09-01 20:25:32

Re: Empire vs Rebel Alliance

#24 2004-09-01 20:30:28

Re: Empire vs Rebel Alliance

#25 2004-09-01 20:32:06

Re: Empire vs Rebel Alliance

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