Kerry's position on space - any one know were Kerry stands

Cobra Commander · 2004-08-31 12:05:00

Quite right Robert, these electronic machines are not only impossible to audit but extremely easy to disrupt. From crashing them to shut down certain precincts to actually altering recorded votes, security on these things is weak to say the least.

Republic crashing down all around... No one listens to ol' Cobra, crazy they said, this is America they said...

In Michigan we've had a system of paper ballots, marked with a Sharpie, then scanned by a machine and tabulated electronically for years. It seems a reasonable and simple solution, but some people want fancy touch screens

deagleninja · 2004-08-31 14:10:00

Robert/ Cobra- I see your points but most of us aren't concerned how the votes are counted as long as you can have a fair non-partisan process.

In 2000 FL, we had the GOP in controll of everything. I know it's painful, but lets recap:

Gov. Jeb Bush telling reporters 'well he is my brother' when asked if he would use his power to cast all of Florida's electoral votes for Bush Jr.

Catherine Harris calling press conference after conference to announce that Bush has won, even before the recount was finished.

A lets not forget that Jeb picked the company to recount the votes and that this company is headed by a regular GOP donator.

We had a fairly non-partisan board to review 9/11, why can't we get the same for picking our president? Hasn't anyone seen George Bush's IQ tests? He's borderline retarded! Now I love mentally challenged people as much as anyone else, but love don't make one fit to be president. This is a puppet administration if there ever was one and I'm sick to death of his exclusionist policies......awww I fell better.

deagleninja · 2004-08-31 14:14:16

About electronic voting, why can't we also have a reciept and pass that we drop in a sealed box in case the election is really close? Seems simple enough?

Cobra Commander · 2004-08-31 14:22:22

Robert/ Cobra- I see your points but most of us aren't concerned how the votes are counted as long as you can have a fair non-partisan process.

Which won't happen if we have to rely on an electronic box that any teenager with fifty bucks worth of gear from Radio Shack can hotwire.

Bush won.

Prove it.

We can't.

See how this goes? This is setting up a series of challenges to election results the likes of which we've never seen.

In 2000 FL, we had the GOP in controll of everything. I know it's painful, but lets recap:

Dude, c'mon now. Here's a rundown.
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/elect … meline.htm

Bush won the count. He won the recount. The courts started making up new standards on the fly, and Bush was still winning. Finally the US Supreme Court (in an act of hipocrisy, I might add) told Florida's Supreme Court they can't legislate from the bench and to stop making up new election standards. No big GOP conspiracy, no Bushie coup.

I fear for the future of this country, I really do. Reason has taken a back seat to baseless emotional outbursts, this won't end well.

Cobra Commander · 2004-08-31 14:26:44

About electronic voting, why can't we also have a reciept and pass that we drop in a sealed box in case the election is really close? Seems simple enough?

The problem is that A) the current systems don't have those receipts, and B) if the receipt is generated after the electronic vote it is subject to any error or fraud that occurs with the machine. It has to be anonymous and it's not practical to have a poll worker take them individually from each person, so it doesn't really help us. If I go in, vote ten times, then drop ten receipts into a box, who's gonna know?

I need to start getting my Presidential campaign together.

C M Edwards · 2004-08-31 15:17:22

Many of the mechanical voting devices used in the 2000 Florida presidential elections were used machines, purchased from Louisiana.

Knowing this, I was mildly surprised that former Louisiana governor Edwards didn't make a stronger showing in that election...

I expect electronic voting systems to be about as reliable as the old mechanical systems.

Cobra Commander · 2004-08-31 16:51:39

I expect electronic voting systems to be about as reliable as the old mechanical systems.

Except that the old mechanical systems can be verified manually.

If the new machines reliably show Bush winning by 1%, we're going to have some problems. Or 99%, can't do a recount.

comstar03 · 2004-08-31 19:58:59

Everyone,

Who gives a dame, who wins, because both won't meet their objections for humanity in space. I realized from all the politics going throughout the world that none of them will expand the frontiers and bring new technologies and improve standards of living to humanity.

Once you have disgard the Governments and Government Agencies that fund and develop Space then you come to the conclusion you need to bring a new approach into developing space and future of humanity.

SpaceNut · 2004-08-31 20:06:35

Which brings us to the Aldridge commissions report and of what is truely meant by changing Nasa facilities to the FFRDC and making more privitzation a predominent part of Nasa's doing business. But thats another thread all together.

deagleninja · 2004-08-31 21:59:02

Thanks for the link Cobra! Wow great details but misleading if you don't know all the facts....

(1)Fox was the first network to call Florida for Bush. Before that, some other networks had called Florida for Gore, and they changed after Fox called it for Bush.
http://www.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/sto … ies/02/02/
cnn.report/cnn.pdf

(2)With information provided from the Voter News Service, NBC was the first network to project Gore the winner in Florida at 7:48 pm. At 7:50 pm ,CNN and CBS project Gore the winner in Florida as well.” By 8:02 pm , all five networks and the Associated Press had called Gore the winner in Florida. Even the VNS called Gore the winner at 7:52 pm. At 2:16 am, Fox calls Florida for Bush, NBC follows at 2:16 am. ABC is the last network to call the Florida for Bush, at 2:20 am, while AP and VNS never call Florida for Bush.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/media/elect … ction2000/
election_night.html

(3)“John Ellis, a first cousin of George W. Bush, ran the network's ‘decision desk’ during the 2000 election, and Fox was the first to name Bush the winner. Earlier, Ellis had made six phone calls to Cousin Bush during the vote-counting.” William O’Rourke, “Talk Radio Key to GOP Victory,” Chicago Sun-Times, December 3, 2002.
A Fox News consultant, John Ellis, who made judgments about presidential ‘calls’ on Election Night admits he was in touch with George W. Bush and FL Gov. Jeb Bush by telephone several times during the night, but denies breaking any rules. CNN, November 14, 2000; http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2000/]ht … ries/2000/
11/14/politics/main249357.shtml.
John Ellis, the Fox consultant who called Florida early for George Bush, had to stop writing about the campaign for the Boston Globe because of family ‘loyalty’ to Bush. CBS News, http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2000/]ht … ries/2000/
11/14/politics/main249357.shtml, November 14, 2000

Does it start to make sense now? John Ellis, Bush's first cousin admits he called george and Jeb several times that night. He headed the 'election' desk at Fox and used that position to make a call on the election based on absolutley 'baseless' information.
John Ellis used his position to throw the election by creating so much chaos that between Bush's lawyers fighting Gore's every move and a partisan Supreme Court ruling that essentially boils down to 'sorry, but your time is up' how can one see that they stole the election?

Lets throw in a couple lines from that fact sheet list of yours and see what results.
*Isn't election day always the 2nd of November? Where are the details about 11-02-00 to 11-12-00 on this website? If I'm reading this website correctly, recounts started at Nov 12 and ended by 5 pm Nov 14? Less than 48 hours to recount hundreds of thousands of votes???

11/12/00
2 a.m. Chaos. A sample recount turns up 19 more votes for Gore. The Palm Beach County Canvassing Board votes 2 to 1 for a full recount of all 460,000 ballots. (now why would Fox be calling Florida for Bush based on exit polls that say Gore won, even with a margin of error taken into account, and a sample count that again has Gore winning the state?)

11/13/00
9 a.m. Florida Secretary of State Katherine Harris orders all counties to finish their recounts by the 5 p.m. Tuesday deadline.

10 a.m. Volusia County sues to extend certification deadline. Lawyers for Palm Beach County, Gore campaign join suit. Bush lawyers join Florida to block extension. (By Florida they mean Katherine Harris that called Florida for Bush)

1 p.m. U.S. District Judge Donald Middlebrooks in Miami rejects Bush’s attempt to stop manual recounts in Florida. (ah yes, Bush's lawyers were fighting to stop a recount that legally had ground to be finished by 5pm Tues.)

2-3 p.m. Harris issues legal opinion on Palm Beach recount conflicting with one Tuesday by Attorney General Butterworth.

4 p.m. Gore appears on television, says it’s important to “spend the days necessary” to determine the winner.

7-8 p.m. A hand recount of 4,000 ballots in Broward County finds no big problems. County rejects full recount. Dem ocrats vow to appeal. (And all the votes were counted you say? Now why wouldn't a county want to count all their votes in a state decided by 300 votes? Could it be, gasp, they wanted Bush to win?!?)

8:15 a.m. Palm Beach County votes 2 to 1 to suspend its hand recount of all ballots after conflicting legal opinions. (yet again not all votes being counted)

11:30 a.m. Miami election officials decide to hand count a sample of precincts, later deciding against a full recount. (and again)

1 p.m. In Tallahassee, Judge Terry Lewis says the 5 p.m. deadline for certifying vote totals should stand but says counties can file supplemental or corrected totals later. Harris can ignore these, Lewis orders, only if she uses “proper exercise of discretion.” Officials in Volusia Countyjoined later by Broward and Palm Beach counties move to appeal Lewis’s ruling. (Now understand that this all the same day, Tues the 14th, deadline for a recount and hardle anywhere has it been done)

And it goes on and on. Nowhere in that break-down does Bush want Gore to get a fair chance. He charges that recounts are 'unconstitutional'. They try to block Dade-Miami's recount by machine sorting.Humans make judgement callls on what is and isnt a vote, and therefore you have...

The Florida Department of State awarded a $4 million contract to the Boca Raton-based Database Technologies Inc. (subsidiary of ChoicePoint). They were tasked with finding improperly registered voters in the state’s database, but mistakes were rampant. “At one point, the list included as felons 8,000 former Texas residents who had been convicted of misdemeanors.” St. Petersburg Times (Florida), December 21, 2003. (remove 8,000 votes from texans charged with misdemeanors angry with Bush's 'Texas Justice' and presto you have FL going to Bush. These people have a right to vote btw, they were illegally removed due to, oops, bungling.)

In 1997, Rick Rozar, the late head of the company bought by ChoicePoint, donated $100,000 to the Republican National Committee. Melanie Eversley, “Atlanta-Based Company Says Errors in Felon Purge Not Its Fault,” Atlanta Journal-Constitution, May 28, 2001. Frank Borman of Database Technologies Inc. has donated extensively to New Mexico Republicans, as well as to the Presidential campaign of George W. Bush. (omg, can you believe that Katherine and Jeb awarded $4 million to a Republican donator?? Gee, I hope he was non-partisan in laying out his guidelines for elimating votes......get real)

This isn't some far out conspiracy theory. You'd have to blind (volunarily or not) to not read between the lines. People with power and money do one thing very well, they stick together. Everyone knows that Republicans always vote as a block, it's how they get things accomplished even with minority control. And now they want us to believe that things got screwed up and just happened to go Bush's way, oops, so sorry. Well, I'm not fooled and I hope you won't let yourselves be fooled.

What kills me the most is that winning is everything to these kinds of people. The ends always justify the means. Sell your country or your soul it doesn't matter as long as you win!

SpaceNut · 2004-09-01 05:36:24

Maybe the then President of the Nation could and probably should have called it a dead heet, one needing a new date to recast votes to finally decide who actually one.

I know I saw and heared much of the news reports of who was winning that night in Florida and was very up set that the media was in fact steering the election in the direction that they wanted by announcing before polls were even close projected winners of course by over exaggerating the amounts on the margin of straw poll votes counted.

The part that really bothers the most is the fact that all the registered voter standing in line at poll close time were turn away from casting there legal votes to be made.

Cobra Commander · 2004-09-01 06:08:48

(1)Fox was the first network to call Florida for Bush. Before that, some other networks had called Florida for Gore, and they changed after Fox called it for Bush.
http://www.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/sto … ies/02/02/
cnn.report/cnn.pdf

I was watching Fox news that night. They were projecting Florida for Gore, but didn't call it because it was too close and the polls were still open. Then they ran a clip of Bush suggesting it may be too early to even project it. The Fox anchor was stunned "it sounds like he's questioning the projection" was the exact bewildered utterance if I remember correctly. Several hours later they called it for Bush by a hair based on the returns available.

Projections don't mean anything, they're just extrapolations of incomplete data. It looked like Gore was going to carry it when the projections started, well before the polls closed.

Does it start to make sense now? John Ellis, Bush's first cousin admits he called george and Jeb several times that night. He headed the 'election' desk at Fox and used that position to make a call on the election based on absolutley 'baseless' information.

The media always calls elections on 'baseless' information, sometimes they only have 1% of the total count when they issue a projection, it has nothing to do with actually determining who wins except for possibly motivating people to go to the polls at the last minute. Hardly fraud.

11/12/00
2 a.m. Chaos. A sample recount turns up 19 more votes for Gore. The Palm Beach County Canvassing Board votes 2 to 1 for a full recount of all 460,000 ballots. (now why would Fox be calling Florida for Bush based on exit polls that say Gore won, even with a margin of error taken into account, and a sample count that again has Gore winning the state?)

Because counts of actual votes showed Bush winning. Forget projections, they don't matter.

1 p.m. U.S. District Judge Donald Middlebrooks in Miami rejects Bush’s attempt to stop manual recounts in Florida. (ah yes, Bush's lawyers were fighting to stop a recount that legally had ground to be finished by 5pm Tues.)

Because the criteria for determining what counts as a valid vote was being changed on the fly. The law was clear, but they weren't following it. This is really the heart of the problem, I'm taking the side that says "the law states that for a ballot to be counted as a valid vote it must..." while you're focusing on what you think the person intended. Well guess what, the law says if you didn't punch the hole out it don't count, indenting it doesn't get you anywhere. Not fair? Change the law. But you can't do it haphazardly in the middle of a count.

This isn't some far out conspiracy theory. You'd have to blind (volunarily or not) to not read between the lines. People with power and money do one thing very well, they stick together. Everyone knows that Republicans always vote as a block, it's how they get things accomplished even with minority control. And now they want us to believe that things got screwed up and just happened to go Bush's way, oops, so sorry. Well, I'm not fooled and I hope you won't let yourselves be fooled.

See, the thing here is that whatever happened the other side would have grounds for a wicked conspiracy theory. Imagine for a moment that Gore won, they got a court to change election law during the count, they filed a lawsuit to keep it going, they kept counting until the incumbent party won, my god we've got a coup on our hands!

Sometimes things just get fucked up, it doesn't mean it's part of a grand scheme.

What kills me the most is that winning is everything to these kinds of people. The ends always justify the means. Sell your country or your soul it doesn't matter as long as you win!

I know, suing to have the votes recounted, the audacity!

Well, newsflash. Politicians in both parties are more concerned with themselves than with us. Sorry, but them's the facts. And with the combination of unverifiable electronic voting machines and a precedent for using lawsuits to settle elections just wait for the mayhem this time around. Viva la Revolucion.

RobertDyck · 2004-09-01 07:13:04

Considering all the national concern regarding George W. Bush winning when he did have fewer votes, is now the time to abolish the Electoral College? Change the presidential election to one voter, one vote; which ever candidate gets the most votes wins. It would require a constitutional amendment, but it's already been amended once. The http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html#Am12]12th amendment was ratified June 15, 1804. Are the people here on this board sufficiently involved to contact their congressmen to initiate this action, or start a political action group?

deagleninja · 2004-09-01 07:16:16

I wasn't implying some grand scheme from Bush, we all know he's incapable of reading a prepared speach correctly. What I am saying is that in Florida you had the votes influenced by republicans up and down the line.

There was never a fair process to the recount. In fact as most reputable sources agree, we never had a full recount. If a card has a deep impression made in one slot for someone then that obviously is their vote, it should not be thrown out.

Somewhere between election night and a never completed recount Gore lost a state that thought it had voted for him. Exit polls are never wrong outside their margin of error, and they weren't wrong in 2000. A majority of people believed they voted for Gore and somehow (many methods were used) their votes were thrown away.

As I pointed out, in a race that close, the so-called blunder of throwing away 8,000 potential ex-Texans is more than enough to swing the state.

I don't have to imagine what would have happened had Gore been in Bush's shoes. I watched as Gore honorable left the race so that Jeb wouldn't do something outrageous and call Florida for Bush regardless of who had more votes. I know Gore wouldn't have used every legal loophole in the book to win Florida had he not had the popular vote.

Conspiracy Theory? Maybe not. Perhaps hundreds of republicans in controling positions acted non-partisan, but I doubt it. What we do have is a group of people determined to see their 'boy' win regardless that he lost the popular vote and that is shameful. It is not worthy of this country or the ideas we are supposed to stand for.

deagleninja · 2004-09-01 07:17:46

I am Robert. I have written my senators, representatives and governor. never did get anything back though....is that a bad sign?

Cobra Commander · 2004-09-01 07:47:15

If a card has a deep impression made in one slot for someone then that obviously is their vote, it should not be thrown out.

But the law said it doesn't get counted, and that's the point. If we start ignoring the duly enacted laws whenever it suits us based on whjat we think is fair or intended then we undermine the entire basis of law itself.

Exit polls are never wrong outside their margin of error, and they weren't wrong in 2000.

They certainly can be, but I'm not sure if there are recorded cases where they were. Media projections are most certainly wrong on occasion.

I have written my senators, representatives and governor. never did get anything back though....is that a bad sign?

It depends on how long ago it was, I've had responses take over six months.

But most likely they realize that this would take more than an amendment and don't want to touch it.

SpaceNut · 2004-09-01 09:27:33

Florida touchscreen voting:

040831_fla_voting_vmed.vmedium.jpg

So far, so good Machines work in crucial tests during primary election vote

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5879920/

C M Edwards · 2004-09-01 09:46:41

I expect electronic voting systems to be about as reliable as the old mechanical systems.
Except that the old mechanical systems can be verified manually.

No.

The mechanical voting machines only produce a final tally sheet, just like the computerized machines. If that machine's tally is wrong - for either method - you're stuck with the choice between using it and throwing it out. That's your only option for a recount.

Cobra Commander · 2004-09-01 10:00:14

The mechanical voting machines only produce a final tally sheet, just like the computerized machines.

A tally sheet generated by mechanical means, a physical piece of documentation produced by physical means.

PurduesUSAFguy · 2004-09-01 10:17:42

Wow, totally off topic, but I've been gone with school and research for the past few weeks more or less, I finally get a chance to dive back into my boards, and this thread is still going!

</insert energizer bunny>

deagleninja · 2004-09-01 10:41:23

'But the law said it doesn't get counted, and that's the point. If we start ignoring the duly enacted laws whenever it suits us based on whjat we think is fair or intended then we undermine the entire basis of law itself.'

I totally agree Cobra, my point is that few if any votes for Bush were thrown away. Gore was trying to get a non-partisan counting of the votes because you get what we had in Florida, represtentatives disproportitionatly throwing away more Gore votes than Bush votes and even refusing to do a full recount and stopping when a nice majority of Bush votes are counted. if we agree to apply the law, it must be applied fairly.

'They certainly can be, but I'm not sure if there are recorded cases where they were. Media projections are most certainly wrong on occasion.'

Not when it comes to exit polls. Exit polls differ from regular polls in that people are asked who they voted for not who they intend to vote for. The margin of error isn't wrong because it is what it is, a margin of error. Never in the history of an exit poll has it been wrong, this is why the media was so confident about the outcome of Florida.Between the major network announcements that Gore won Florida and Fox saying he didn't almost 7 hours passed in which john Ellis make 6 phone calls to Jeb and George, doesn't that seem a tad odd?

PurduesUSAFguy is right, this is getting way off topic. this thread is supposed to be about Kerry's position on space. That said, what space policy did Bush or any president have before becoming president? Saying Kerry has no space policy is an unfair assesment. NASA's interest only falls on two or three states which is why it shouldnt be up to every state to decided space policy and budget.

SpaceNut · 2004-09-01 11:05:35

In the same token the available jobs need to be spread over all the states as well not just the less than a dozen that current have them.
I think a space port on the old Pease Airforce base at lattitude 40 plus in NH would be a good place to launch to the ISS.

Cobra Commander · 2004-09-01 11:20:26

if we agree to apply the law, it must be applied fairly.

It was applied as written, if it isn't fair then it needs changing through the appropriate channels.

Not when it comes to exit polls. Exit polls differ from regular polls in that people are asked who they voted for not who they intend to vote for.

They don't ask everyone state-wide and not everyone they ask wants to answer. It's still taking a small sample and using it as the basis to project a final outcome without having all the data. It's subject to error.

Back on topic, sort of.

That said, what space policy did Bush or any president have before becoming president? Saying Kerry has no space policy is an unfair assesment.

As far as we can reasonably tell, Kerry has no policies period. He hasn't really explained how he plans to do any of the things he's said he will do, particularly when the statements conflict.

In the same token the available jobs need to be spread over all the states as well not just the less than a dozen that current have them.

So... forced bussing of aerospace workers?

???

SpaceNut · 2004-09-01 11:40:36

No not a bussed worker but new aerospace facilities.

On the note of space policy Kerry has tended to list it as science and technology under his plan for America.
http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/technology/

His official blog page archive:
http://blog.johnkerry.com/archives.html

Who does he think he is kidding that that was the top topic of concern. This was the only listing of topics for Nasa or space.

NASA Town Hall quote:
This morning at a townhall meeting at Cape Canaveral, healthcare seemed to be the major concern on most peoples minds.

deagleninja · 2004-09-01 12:52:47

'As far as we can reasonably tell, Kerry has no policies period. He hasn't really explained how he plans to do any of the things he's said he will do, particularly when the statements conflict.'

Yes, but my question was, how many challengers
ever have a space policy? Or for that matter any policy outside their own state?

Bush came to the white house with a lof of friends but only 8 years as Gov. of Texas and no space policy what-so-ever.

Btw, here are some of Kerry's proposed changes once he takes office.

1)Roll back the tax breaks for the rich to balance the budget.
2)Create realistic budgets that allow for surplus to deal with unexpected trouble (ie wars, hurricanes, etc)
3)Embrace international cooperation before and after any wars including Iraq.
4)Reduce our dependancy on foreign oil by creating incentives for both suppliers and buyers of fuel effecient cars.

Sounds like a plan to me! Go Kerry Go Ra Ra Ra!

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