Purple Heart "Badges" at RNC

Palomar · 2004-08-31 09:50:47

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s … ges_3]What nerve

*Thankfully the GOP asked this guy to stop. And yes, it's a slap in the face to all who have served.

This guy doesn't have a problem with Bush's service record completely missing? :snirk:

At least Kerry's is accounted for.

--Cindy

::EDIT:: Whoops...I made a major typo. Is supposed to be BANDAGES, not badges. Whatever.

Palomar · 2004-08-31 09:58:41

*People supporting George Bush:

1. The man who claims he's a "uniter, not a divider" but whose policies have done nothing BUT create division and discord.

2. WMDs, WMDs, WMDs in Iraq, "imminent threat." Still nowhere to be found.

3. Attacks and derides people who DID serve in the military (while drinking soda pop and looking at girlie mags at the Guards post in Texas). And now his records are all missing, including microfilm. Yeah, I'll bet that's all a big frickin' coincidence. NOT.

How can anyone with half a brain endorse this quack?

--Cindy

REB · 2004-08-31 10:17:27

I thought the search was over for WMD, but after hearing http://sunny99.com/Lt%20Col%20Jim%20Stearns.mp3]this inteview with Lt. Col. Jim Stearns, who recently got back from Iraq and was in the ISG (Iraq Survey Group) says. He says they did find terrorist cells. And they found everything associated with WMD (documents, people, knowledge, facilities and ingredients to build WMD). He feels they are still there and it is a matter of time. HE thinks they are buried in the sands.

Sounds to me like the verdict is still out.

Listen to this interview. It is very good. Why don't we see more inteviews like this on the national media (This was local)?

REB · 2004-08-31 10:20:05

Speaking of the Texas national Guard, about 3000 of them will be heading to Iraq by the end of this year. A good buddy of mine is one of them. He is 36 years old and has a 7 month old daughter. We are worried about him, but we are proud of him as he fights for freedom.

I have known him since 1980 and we have been through much together.

Palomar · 2004-08-31 10:39:47

*Sorry for my 2nd post mini-rant (except #3); repetitious.

I honestly do not understand, though, how people can deride Kerry (who served) and support Bush (whose records are all missing, unaccounted for and therefore his "service" is unaccountable).

Just because Bush is arrogant, unapologetic and brash...people support him.

I don't like what that says about at least 1/2 of our population.

While I'm not a war vet, and really dislike presuming to know how I'd feel if I were one, I can guarantee I'd be at least a TAD BIT TROUBLED (a tad bit -- at least!!) about Bush's service records being GONE. I might be miffed or even angry at Kerry for his anti-war stuff when he got back home, but at least he -did- serve.

Geez.

::shakes head::

--Cindy

P.S.: If Bush ever gets an idea in his head like Hitler did, apparently there'd be hundreds of thousands of people in this nation happily willing to toss others into furnaces. And no, I don't think I'm engaging in hyperbole here.

::EDIT:: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s … bush]First Lady refers to Pres as "Warrior" :laugh: I needed a good laugh today. That's a beaut. The warrior with the missing service records! Oh, the irony is rich!

(Isn't it time Jenna and Barbara served in Iraq? Might break up their partygoing/binge-drinking circuit, but aw well)

Cobra Commander · 2004-08-31 10:57:54

I thought the search was over for WMD, but after hearing this inteview with Lt. Col. Jim Stearns, who recently got back from Iraq and was in the ISG (Iraq Survey Group) says. He says they did find terrorist cells. And they found everything associated with WMD (documents, people, knowledge, facilities and ingredients to build WMD). He feels they are still there and it is a matter of time. HE thinks they are buried in the sands.

Quite true, we've found a mess of supporting evidence, a few actual chemical weapons, several drums of something labeled as "pesticide" stored in multiple ammo dumps, and for an idea of what could be buried under the sand...

http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/arti … _247.shtml

Not WMD, but the implications make you wonder...

P.S.: If Bush ever gets an idea in his head like Hitler did, apparently there'd be hundreds of thousands of people in this nation happily willing to toss others into furnaces. And no, I don't think I'm engaging in hyperbole here.

There are plenty of willing 'furnace throwers' on both sides of the aisle. It's just a question of who gets targeted.

REB · 2004-08-31 11:01:11

Cindy,

Frankly I don’t care what Kerry or Bush did 30 something years ago. It is who they are now that concerns me.

George Bush was my governor for 8 years. He was a very good governor. When he became president, I knew he would do a good job, but I didn’t think he was a strong president. When I saw how he rose to the challenge after 9/11, I gained respect for him. During that horrible day he held this country together and did all the right things.

He is a man who sticks to what he feels is right regardless of what the polls show. I do believe he loves America and is trying to protect it. He is a man who’s country was brutally attacked by terrorist, and I can see the pain of that attack in his eyes.

I was afraid he was so obsessed with capturing bin laden that he would sacrifice anything to catch him, but I don’t see that now.

What about Kerry? I truly do not know where he stands on just about everything. I have heard him flip flop around on all the major issues.

I do like Senator Joe Lieberman. I like him a lot. I wouldn’t mind seeing him president one day. I wish the Democrat party had picked him. He is a good man who has direction and would do the right thing for America. I don’t see Kerry in that light.

Cobra Commander · 2004-08-31 11:02:46

I do like Senator Joe Lieberman. I like him a lot. I wouldn’t mind seeing him president one day. I wish the Democrat party had picked him. He is a good man who has direction and would do the right thing for America. I don’t see Kerry in that light.

I concur for the most part.

REB · 2004-08-31 11:10:47

Cobra, do you know what the final verdict was on those couple of tons of nuclear material we pulled out of Iraq?

And what about those 20 or so Iraq missile engines that showed up in Jordan. They were from banned missiles that Saddam couldn’t account for. They turned up in a scrap yard, apparently given to them by poor Iraqis who were selling whatever they could find. That may be where a lot of this stuff has gone. Hungry Iraqis are selling it for scrap.

Sorry if I am getting offtopic, Cindy.

Cobra Commander · 2004-08-31 11:28:38

Cobra, do you know what the final verdict was on those couple of tons of nuclear material we pulled out of Iraq?

Last I heard it was not weapons grade. Still... Looks like the verdict is still out for the moment, along with a great many other things.

And what about those 20 or so Iraq missile engines that showed up in Jordan. They were from banned missiles that Saddam couldn’t account for.

Yep. A big truckload of sarin also turned up in Jordan awhile ago in an averted terror plot. And we have satellite photos of trucks and trains driving into Syria in the months before the war, who knows what was in those...

Whatever the case, we aren't going to know the full story for quite some time. Years at any rate.

Palomar · 2004-08-31 11:37:41

George Bush was my governor for 8 years. He was a very good governor

*Fine. Doesn't qualify him for the Presidency, though. Kerry's got years in the Senate.

When I saw how he rose to the challenge after 9/11, I gained respect for him. During that horrible day he held this country together

*As would any President. It's not his actions on 9/11 which bother me. It's decisions he began making about a year later. Prior to that, I'd begun liking and even trusting him. Casting off Afghanistan and charging like crazy into Iraq is where I began very much DISrespecting him.

I have heard him flip flop around on all the major issues.

*Kerry pointed out some of Bush's flip-flops during the DNC. Wish I could remember those.

He is a man who sticks to what he feels is right regardless of what the polls show

*Doesn't mean he's right, though. As Cobra's fond of saying, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." Or sincere intentions. Besides, in some respects he's got to "stick to it" -- otherwise he'll completely lose face.

I was afraid he was so obsessed with capturing bin laden that he would sacrifice anything to catch him, but I don’t see that now.

*Me neither. Halliburton and Cheney interfered.

He is a man who’s country was brutally attacked by terrorist, and I can see the pain of that attack in his eyes.

*I'm a woman whose country was brutally attacked and I've still got the pain of that attack in my eyes. Which is precisely why I am very concerned about this nation and this next election. And how so many people seem so UNthinking and simply willing to follow. At a crucial time like this!

Sorry if I am getting offtopic, Cindy.

*No need to apologize; I'm the one who interjected WMDs to begin with. They'll never be found because they don't exist except as a pretext to war.

--Cindy

Cobra Commander · 2004-08-31 11:52:47

*Fine. Doesn't qualify him for the Presidency, though. Kerry's got years in the Senate.

It could be argued that being Governor of a large state, particularly one that borders a foreign country, is more relevant to being President than being in the Senate.

Casting off Afghanistan and charging like crazy into Iraq is where I began very much DISrespecting him.

There are legitimate resons for opposing the Iraq war, but the claim that we "cast off Afghanistan" isn't one of them. We haven't, it's just not covered much when Iraq is so much more exciting on the networks.

Quote
I was afraid he was so obsessed with capturing bin laden that he would sacrifice anything to catch him, but I don’t see that now.

*Me neither. Halliburton and Cheney interfered.

:hm: Well, if you want to go rolling into Pakistan after bin Laden I'm up for it, but it's gonna get messy...

*No need to apologize; I'm the one who interjected WMDs to begin with. They'll never be found because they don't exist except as a pretext to war.

Okay, joking aside. I'm going to ask something in utmost sincerity. Do you believe deep down that those weapons weren't there and that this whole thing was a fabrication? All the political turmoil aside, our biases, preferences and allegiances cast off, can you honestly say that you firmly believe with absolute certainty that Bush lied about those weapons and everyone else was mistaken?

REB · 2004-08-31 11:53:51

For me, Iraq is the fight for freedom in the Middle East. We have planted the seed of freedom there and I do believe it will grow. There are many who do not want this, but it is too late.

Once Iraq and Afghanistan are free democracies, I believe freedom will spread throughout the rest of the Middle East. The youth in Iran want this freedom. Saudi Arabia and Kuwait are pretty much free.

This is President’s Bush’s vision for the Middle East. He has said that the only way to stop terrorist is to get rid of the environment that breeds them. A suicide bomber has nothing to live for and has nothing to loose. Lets give them something some thing worth living for. Lets give them something to loose. Lets give them freedom.

And for those who think the Iraqis should have earned their own freedom, lets not forget that we did not earn our freedom- or forefathers did, and many died for it. The Iraqis were in no shape to revolt. Unlike the American revolutionist, the Iraqi people were underfed, unarmed and terrorized by their own government. Their enemy wasn’t a government on the other side of the Atlantic, it was in their homes.

As for WMD in Iraq, I still say the book is still open. We shall see.

REB · 2004-08-31 11:57:58

Dang it, Cindy, I swore I would never talk politics on this site. Now look what you got me doing.

I swore I would stick to science.

Palomar · 2004-08-31 12:18:21

Cobra: Okay, joking aside. I'm going to ask something in utmost sincerity. Do you believe deep down that those weapons weren't there and that this whole thing was a fabrication? All the political turmoil aside, our biases, preferences and allegiances cast off, can you honestly say that you firmly believe with absolute certainty that Bush lied about those weapons and everyone else was mistaken?

*I just had an answer nearly completed when my computer winked off for no apparent reason. This thing is glitchy.

Okay, try again:

1. The alleged WMDs were apparently known to Clinton. He didn't act on it. Why? Maybe he was a coward...maybe he was being wise and cautious ("Fools rush in where angels fear to tread.") Doubt can be a good, healthy thing!

2. Saddam had, for quite some time, been playing games. Let the weapons inspectors in, toss them out, let them back in...etc. As arrogant and all-powerful as he was, I have no qualms in believing he couldn't also play the petty prankster. He screwed around too many times and Bush let him have it.

3. Bush and his administration made repeated claims of definite weapons. The testimony of Colin Powell before the UN, Rumsfeld's assertion he *knew* where the WMDs were. Maybe Bush outright lied to get us over there (for reasons of oil and etc), but I'm fair enough to give him the benefit of the doubt (though I'm grinding my teeth while I'm doing it) that perhaps he was mislead. However, his claims and bravado are his responsibility.

There are also definite ties between the Bush family and the House of Saud. Iraq has lots of oil.

As for the claim that we're fighting for the freedom of the Middle East. Sorry to say, I don't see much evidence that they want freedom (if they even understand what the concept means to begin with, considering they've either never had it nor haven't had it in decades). Their social pattern is theocratic-oriented dictatorship. Is it possible to fight for another nation's freedom? And why should we offer up OUR sons and daughters? People who can't fight for themselves aren't worth fighting for. I hope they DO some day wish to embrace liberty, freedom, etc., though -- of course. And that -they'll- be willing to fight for it, for themselves. We can't fight everyone's battles for them and we're not obligated.

Anyway -- the oil IS there. The WMDs -aren't-. Follow the traffic. Facts are facts.

--Cindy

Cobra Commander · 2004-08-31 12:42:16

Anyway -- the oil IS there. The WMDs -aren't-. Follow the traffic. Facts are facts.

Yep. oil's over there. Also found a few WMD's, not all that much though. No Saddam death rockets with sunbombs on 'em, but a few bon-fide chemical weapons and a pile of "hmm" items. Probably not enough to justify action on its own. We know this stuff was there, the only question is whether it was destroyed by whatever means before the war or is still hidden somewhere, possibly outside Iraq. Again, if we want to find nasty weapons there's plenty of other places to look. Not many making an utter joke of the UN, but better places to find WMD. These weapons can't be the sole reason for the war, even if they did disappear into the eigth dimension sometime in the late '90's. Something else is in play here.

But "war for oil?" c'mon, this is wacko stuff. Wouldn't it make more sense to just buy the oil from Saddam, less expensive and less political fallout. If we wanted to invade someone for oil we'd be rolling tanks into British Columbia and Alberta. Bush doesn't get a big tanker full of oil for his personal use, I don't think Cheney actually drinks it, and he no longer has his Haliburton stock. I've never filled up at a BushCo station, cheap gas stolen from the brown man...

So if it isn't just about weapons (which are slowly turning up anyway) and the oil argument doesn't make a shred of sense...

We've got a long-term strategy at work here. This madman is trying to remake the Middle East! Trying to force freedom on these ungrateful sand people! Insanity.

Except that the alternative is just killing Muslims until they give up, which they can't because Allah's wrath is worse than whatever we may do to them in this world.

Too many people are over-simplifying the matter, anyone who claims it's just about WMD or oil discredits themselves with the first utterance. There's multiple real reasons covered by multiple justifications covered by spinmeister drivel. We have to dig through the rhetoric to find the fragments of reality, just as we must dig trough the sands to find those elusive phantom weapons everyone knew existed until two years ago.

Palomar · 2004-08-31 12:48:16

But "war for oil?" c'mon, this is wacko stuff. Wouldn't it make more sense to just buy the oil from Saddam, less expensive and less political fallout. If we wanted to invade someone for oil we'd be rolling tanks into British Columbia and Alberta. Bush doesn't get a big tanker full of oil for his personal use, I don't think Cheney actually drinks it, and he no longer has his Haliburton stock. I've never filled up at a BushCo station, cheap gas stolen from the brown man...

*I didn't say it was a war for oil (although I have said so in the past...but recently I've come to be willing to give Bush the benefit of the doubt ABIT).

Canada? It's oil supplies, based on my understanding, are very difficult to access. Can't recall why (depth and soil issues?). It's not like Canada is a massive *working* oil field with rigs working day and night, etc. It's there -- just hard to get access to, apparently.

However, why NOT take the oil (if that was the reason)? History is replete with wars really being about taking something from someone else.

--Cindy

REB · 2004-08-31 12:51:33

Cobra, speaking about the UN, don't forget the corrupt UN Oil for Food program.

As for the it "was all about Oil"
It has cost the US much more money than we'll ever see in oil. From what I have seen, Iraq is getting the money for the oil is producing.

No, this is about bringing the Middle East into the Free World. There are many who see thjis and do not want this. They want to keep their women under wraps. They don't want to loose their power over these people.

Like I said, the seed of freedom has been planted, and it is a hard plant to kill.

Cobra Commander · 2004-08-31 12:57:23

Canada? It's oil supplies, based on my understanding, are very difficult to access.

Actually Canada is the largest supplier of oil to the US.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petr … ...rt.html

But Iraq makes the list now, selling oil on the open market instead of trading it for arms and favors.

However, why NOT take the oil (if that was the reason)? History is replete with wars really being about taking something from someone else.

Not saying we couldn't, just that it doesn't make sense under the present conditions and in the way the "war for oil" crowd suggests.

No, this is about bringing the Middle East into the Free World.

Well, it's actually about eliminating the conditions in which Islamic terrorism breeds. It just so happens that making the Middle East into a free, secular society is a good way to achieve that. It's what we're doing, but it isn't really our purpose, we have our own motives. Just oil isn't one of them.

REB · 2004-08-31 13:25:42

And speaking about being governor of Texas.

Texas is the only state to have ever been a country (This is why Texas is the only state allowed to fly its flag at the same level as the American flag). The Republic of Texas even had its own embassy in London (The building is still there and it is still called the Texas Embassy, but it is a Tex-Mex/ BBQ restaurant now).

Texas borders another nation and the Governor keeps close ties with the Mexican Government. Texas is larger than most European Counties . It is even larger than the UK and rivals France and Spain in size.

Thus ends today’s lesson. Tomorrow there will be a quiz.

Cobra Commander · 2004-08-31 13:36:38

Texas is the only state to have ever been a country

Well, with the arguable exception of the Confederate states. :;):

Palomar · 2004-08-31 14:02:12

And speaking about being governor of Texas.
Texas is the only state to have ever been a country (This is why Texas is the only state allowed to fly its flag at the same level as the American flag). The Republic of Texas even had its own embassy in London (The building is still there and it is still called the Texas Embassy, but it is a Tex-Mex/ BBQ restaurant now).
Texas borders another nation and the Governor keeps close ties with the Mexican Government. Texas is larger than most European Counties . It is even larger than the UK and rivals France and Spain in size.
Thus ends today’s lesson. Tomorrow there will be a quiz.

*Sorry Robert. I've lived in Texas, I've traveled from Texarkana to Kingsville, from Marshall to El Paso...I just don't see what all the fuss is about. There are other states with just as rich if not even richer histories.

"Tex-Mex" food is okay, but I prefer the Latino dishes native to New Mexico (or Arizona for that matter).

--Cindy

REB · 2004-08-31 14:21:38

Cindy, to each their own, I suppose.

I have been all over America, but I can't think of any other state I would rather live in.

I love the East Texas rolling hills covered with pine forest. I love the white sands of Padre Island. I love the rugged mountains, with their islands of aspen and fir forest, of West Texas. I love the wild Big Bend region, and the wild Big Thicket Region. I even like the open skies of the panhandled cut by colorful canyons. My favorite part it the Central Texas Hill county- cool clear rivers, crystal clear lakes, tall hills, nice climate. The small German towns.

And the food! From seafood, to Mexican Food. Don't forget BBQ or chicken fried steak!. Nothing like eating chicken fried steak at the Gristmill above the Guadeloupe river in Greune. Or Mexican food on San Antonio's River walk. Or Gulf Shrimp overlooking the Gulf of Mexico. As for BBQ, it is everywhere.

To each their own.

REB · 2004-08-31 14:34:47

Sorry Cindy. I got way off topic. I just love my state.

I am fond the Rocky Mountain States, but I do not think I could survive the winters (I have thought of living in New Mexico or Colorado). Arkansas is like a second home state, since that is where my family is from and I have been going there my whole life. I spent a lot of time in northern Georgia and I like it there. But I’ll always hang my hat in Texas.

Palomar · 2004-08-31 14:36:21

*If any State is greatest, it's currently California.

And no, I'm not from California. I've never even been there.

Vast natural resources and 5th largest economy by global standards (without benefit of oil). Impressive. :up:

--Cindy

P.S. Too bad about the earthquakes and wildfires though. Thought I'd mention that before someone else does.

::EDIT::

We've got a long-term strategy at work here. This madman is trying to remake the Middle East! Trying to force freedom on these ungrateful sand people! Insanity.

*Correct me if wrong, but Cobra: Haven't you yourself in the past questioned the validity of "giving" other people freedom? Or "fighting for" their freedom for them? But we have so many threads to keep track of, various comments...perhaps my memory is faulty here.

::2nd Edit:: Robert: As you said, to each their own. You love Texas (fine, and I'm glad you're happy where you live); I wouldn't care if I never stepped foot in it again. We all have our preferences, experiences, etc.

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