Post central for information on CEV 2 - ...continue here.

Martian Republic · 2004-08-29 21:59:22

Now the British system or concept of government is based on John Locke, which is part of Venetian Party which came out of Venice. Is the one that pushes evolution and that man is just an evolved animal and so is expendable if there too many of them. This is also where the royalty came from or those royal family blood lines came from. The one that set up the serf classes and the ruling classes in Europe after the fall of Rome and until the mid 1800 century time frame. Serf Class was basically, just another form of slavery, although it was not referred to as slavery though.
Think your post at a whole is rather good, but I frankly don't understand this bit. I thought the natural rights metaphysics of John Locke was very akin to what formed the basis of the American constitution. Evolution? Surely John Locke believed in God and an inherent purpose in creation (teleology), not some kind of social darwinism.
And what's this about Venice?
The particular ideology of social relations in medieval Europe, of which there was never a clean cut everywhere prevalent case of serfdom - it varied greatly in different regions and countries - was in a sense similar. It relied on the presumption of how God had intended the social organism to be organized. It also relied on rights in the medieval sense, which was not a universal faculty, but a mundane agreement.
The social organization of feudalism itself was not the product of a conscious ideology however, but of the means of production in late antiquity and early middle ages as well as the clash between Roman and Germanic law.

In Europe you have these two factions that have been fighting each other over the last thousand years or so. This battle actually started in accent Rome and even goes back to even the Greeks and Egyptian fight against Babylon. It a battle between these two world view of who man is.

But, when Rome fail where did all those pagans go that did not convert to Christianity go?

They went to Venice where there were island surrounded by swamp on a major river. That way they could get the water they need and could defend them self from invasions. Since they were on island they became a maritime power and that where those laws of the seas came from or the maritime rules of the sea. To hide there pagan character, they gave there pagan gods Christian sounding name like St. George (Satin) or other stuff like that. It was Venice that finance the Protestant fight against the Catholics Church. The reason that they financed it, was so that they could break the power of the Catholic Church so that they could take over the control of the banking policies. After they took control over banks and set the banking policies, It was this group of people that caused the 14-15th Dark Age and lead to the Council of Florence which lead to the Renaissance. It was delegates from Islam world that brought back the Greek Concept of a Republican form of Government or the Nation State concept. They also brought with them the Platonic Solid that laid the foundation for the Holistic Christian Sciences Renaissance, which later was based around Classical music toned at 256 C. Toning Classical Music at 256 C is not arbitrary, but is where the human voice is toned at. After that you get into pendulums, evaluate and involves, divine section, etc. Then down the road you have Kepler using first Platonic Solids and then moving to Classical Music toned at 256 C to figure out our star system and the mission orbit between Mars and Jupiter. Beethoven come back through with his deminished 5th piece. The note are there, but they are deminished just like that orbit between Mars and Jupiter is. That where the register shift is and it goes from one register to the other or in this case the four rock planets and the four gas giant planets. That where the busted planet theory came from.

France was the first Nation State and England was the second Nation State in Europe, but they did not go all the way with a Constitution to complete the deal. You also had the enemy counter thrust do defeat this process of uplifting man to a higher level of consciousness. At that point, they the oligarch were defeating the faction that caused the Renaissance to happen and started the process of pulling thing back down. The faction around Liebnize that salvage his writing in Germany and there allies in the rest of Europe turn to America as there only hope to build a sovereign nation state based on a Constitutional Republic to promote the "General Welfare". The plan was to do it in America and when it been perfected, export it back to Europe this nation state sovereign Republic based on the general welfare. So they had to create a forces to promote there plan in America and it centered Logan in Pennsylvania and Ben Franklin in Massachusetts. When Ben Franklin got into this thing he was about seventeen or eighteen and he went over to read Liebnize and spend time with the people that salvaged it. When Liebnize was alive he was using his influence and he was squaring off against Issic Newton which was chairman of the Bank of England. Newton was kind of like the Alan Greenspan of his day. Issic Newton was even a one of the stock holder of the Bank of England. You also have Swift out of Ireland that worked with Liebnize during the time of queen Antonet to help the colonies reach the population density they need to reach. Ben Franklin was also a secret agent and so did not tell much of what he was doing, because he had to keep it a secret. If you look at history from this angle, you see it, but it very sketchy though, beside side that trying to create the American Republic, but keeping it secret, you also have the other side rewriting history to suppress what happened too. The American Revolution was basically a Ben Franklin Youth Movement. With the exception of George Washington and a few other, most of our founding were in there early twenty when they join the fight and were not even in there thirty even.

But, as to whether John Locke is a Christian or not, I'm not going to get into that argument. I do know that they subverted Christianity to promote there ends. Many of the doctrinal differences that we have today were a result of those subversion that they created then. They also corrupted the government inside the colonies too for beating them down. They also took over control of the news papers too so that they could control the new. That one reason the Ben Franklin supported other people to start news papers to counter that move. You basically had move and counter move on both side with America in the middle. So this was not just an American Revolution, but we had people on both side of the Atlantic doing there thing.

The American Revolution, didn’t just happen. It was a planned event and people like Ben Franklin knew exactly what he wanted to accomplish along with his European Allies. Any body that thinks we got a document like the U.S. Constitution and fought a world power and beat them because we are smart and clever does not really know history or what really happened.

Larry,

comstar03 · 2004-08-29 23:48:38

GCNRevenger,

Why and how, are your two questions. Lets start with how ? - We have technology across the planet to build smarter systems then we currently have in production or development. example - 2GB RAM DDR, 1GB EPROMS, and 250GB HD, 10 -12 megpxls CCD Cameras, High Speed, High Performance Graphic Processors, 1GB LAN sytems and more ( Current Technology ) - Technology has moved alot in the past few years and with general public receiving the 64 bit processors, development tools for that platform, and also the increasing bandwidth developments, the next generation of communication systems in the next few years will allow , VR type control in real-time. Current Client-Server Software Architecture can be used to build smarter droids.

On Earth for production, using data centre clustered servers with CAD/CAM/CAE systems you could automated the development of components for space droid development. People are thinking beings, that reason not, mindless automated repetitive beings, that's what industrial robots are for.

Now Why Question ? - In order to expand space rapidly we need thousands of personnel working development and constructiing in space, BUT the cost would be astronomical and not cost effective. The Ansers in Workteams of Droids in space. Its cost effective for private enterprise to expand into space and build markets in orbit and eventually expand to the moon. Another reason - The cargo is more important to get into outer space than humans at the point in development.

The implementation plans would provide the creation of human outpost in Earth Orbit that can sustain human life. Those components can be sent up into spaceand assembled via a number of droid teams and tested before human occupation and commencement. Once that happens then the orbiting platform takes control of earth-outward traffic and incoming orbital traffic. ( space traffic control )

Is that enough detail for you , GCNRevenger, ???

Grypd · 2004-08-30 04:17:10

GCNRevenger,
Why and how, are your two questions. Lets start with how ? - We have technology across the planet to build smarter systems then we currently have in production or development. example - 2GB RAM DDR, 1GB EPROMS, and 250GB HD, 10 -12 megpxls CCD Cameras, High Speed, High Performance Graphic Processors, 1GB LAN sytems and more ( Current Technology ) - Technology has moved alot in the past few years and with general public receiving the 64 bit processors, development tools for that platform, and also the increasing bandwidth developments, the next generation of communication systems in the next few years will allow , VR type control in real-time. Current Client-Server Software Architecture can be used to build smarter droids.

Now Why Question ? - In order to expand space rapidly we need thousands of personnel working development and constructiing in space, BUT the cost would be astronomical and not cost effective. The Ansers in Workteams of Droids in space. Its cost effective for private enterprise to expand into space and build markets in orbit and eventually expand to the moon. Another reason - The cargo is more important to get into outer space than humans at the point in development.
The implementation plans would provide the creation of human outpost in Earth Orbit that can sustain human life. Those components can be sent up into spaceand assembled via a number of droid teams and tested before human occupation and commencement. Once that happens then the orbiting platform takes control of earth-outward traffic and incoming orbital traffic. ( space traffic control )
Is that enough detail for you , GCNRevenger, ???

The NASA robot as developed was intended to be moved to its construction or work area by way of the shuttles robot arm. For a construction Bot to be effective it will need a means to pilot itself ie it will need an MMU. To develop one in which fuel and duration is increased will cost a lot of money. To then pair it with a telerobotic robot which has to last an extended length of time in orbit, so it has to have duration and all with a weight limit begins to get very very hard. This is getting to the point where we are sending one of these robots up on there own so your talking a single delta or shuttle to deliver one.

We are now talking about a robot which in effect weighs about 10 to 15 tonnes and is using ion thrust to move about and has a nuclear power source. All these will have to be developed. I am now changing my view it will cost 5 to 6 Billion us$ to develop. If you want an effective construction droid that is what has to be done.

I have just thought differently than I usually do, I usually will drop a project when it gets too big or the weight problems prove to be impossible to fix. Comstar we can create a construction droid but it will be heavy. It needs a real construction project to build the problem is not software for the construction droid it is hardware the ability to move and maneuver in space means that the robot will have to be of a realistically larger size to be of use.

SpaceNut · 2004-08-30 06:18:32

Martian Republic
I too feel that the shuttle external tank has value if it where give a ride the rest of the way up into orbit. To be re-used in a number of manners. They only cost 40 million in comparition to the 1 billion shuttle flight cost but it is essentially free once there in orbit. As you note there would have been at least a 100 of them to be reused. One a lot more garbage could go into one of them versus the very small progress M or proton. Also the Progress M or proton could be recycled for it's engines and such making a very in expensive mission to the moon from the station possible.

I am posting this also under the moon direct topic.

comstar03 · 2004-08-30 08:03:58

grypd,

I had looks at the NASA Robonaut program, I think we need to look at droids that are not shaped as humanoid for space, no engines but a tethered cable line, with Wireless LAN development to the control craft and then down to command center.

We don't need a 10-15 tonne robot but we need a tug and control ship and smaller droids that can disassemble like worker ants or bees. Use nature to give the answers on team structures and organization.

GCNRevenger · 2004-08-30 09:22:39

"We have technology across the planet to build smarter systems then we currently have in production or development. example - 2GB RAM DDR, 1GB EPROMS, and 250GB HD, 10 -12 megpxls CCD Cameras, High Speed, High Performance Graphic Processors, 1GB LAN sytems..."

Nooo, we have more powerful computers, but you can operate industrial robots off of 486 chips with a few megs of RAM... the problem still remains programming, that robots don't think, so they must follow relativly fixed instructions. As such, they simpy cannot perform complex tasks on their own. Since man-in-the-loop control is difficult because of the time delay (>2sec), the whole business of robotic construction is currently impractical to accomplish on any scale, and using robot teams makes the problem even worse, not easier.

You also wildly underestimate what it takes to develop a robot that will work in space and do what you ask of it... The thing has to be able to precisely manipulate objects weighing hundreds of pounds to within millimeter accuracy, when the thing is 200 degrees on one side and -200 on the other. With the weight of the tug and its fuel added in, yes the robot will weigh tens of tons. Welding in space is currently impossible too, cutting is difficult, and the list goes on. Even the lubricants in the robots' joints is still too primitive for what you propose.

And again, the why part... today there is no need for it, as simply building a new expendable rocket purpose built is cheaper than trying to recycle on orbit. The vast majority of the cost is still just rocket fuel, bringing up a small rocket stage does not contribute that much to the total system cost. A reuseable vehicle built on Earth and launched is the obvious choice versus attempting to build one in orbit too.

Maybe large space stations or huge cyclers someday... but today? Not a chance.

"I too feel that the shuttle external tank has value if it where give a ride the rest of the way up into orbit."

Welll you might "feel" that way, but ultimatly you are wrong. The payload penalty on Shuttle for bringing the tank all the way to orbit will prevent Shuttle from bringing up ISS pieces, so its not going to happen in the first place. Second, no, there is no way to use the tank on orbit unmodified. Since NASA isn't about to change its tanks any more since Columbia to maximize safety, its doubly not going to happen. Lastly, why? They are flimsy and easy to pierce, they are under insulated for space operations, and they are very difficult to work with. There isn't any good reason to keep them when you make a durable, shielded, and superior inflatable module of similar volume that can ride on todays' rockets.

SpaceNut · 2004-08-30 11:28:20

Well here is the page from space Island Group that really spells out why they can not have shuttle external tanks.
It is also the main reason while private industry is held out of the game and must re-invent the wheel when it comes to Rockets and of Space exploration.

http://www.spaceislandgroup.com/vehicles-systems.html

Martian Republic · 2004-08-30 19:50:23

Martian Republic
I too feel that the shuttle external tank has value if it where give a ride the rest of the way up into orbit. To be re-used in a number of manners. They only cost 40 million in comparition to the 1 billion shuttle flight cost but it is essentially free once there in orbit. As you note there would have been at least a 100 of them to be reused. One a lot more garbage could go into one of them versus the very small progress M or proton. Also the Progress M or proton could be recycled for it's engines and such making a very in expensive mission to the moon from the station possible.
I am posting this also under the moon direct topic.

In the present banking system with cost increases by either taking the external tank all the way up into space and the external tank not be designed for dual use after it been used as the fuel to get the space craft into space.

I'm not sure which side I take.

Because we have a limited budget that can't be doubled to either take the external tank into space or redesign it either. Since we would have to do both of those to make those external tanks usable for our purposes in space, it appears to be a dead issue. Like I said we have launched over 100 shuttle flight with 100 external tanks attacked to the out side. I hate to waste those kinds of resources like that, but it would cost more to try salvage those tanks than use some other plan to do the same thing from a fresh launch of another heavy buster. What a shame that is though. Unfortunately, I don't see things changing any time soon.

The only thing that I know that can alter the veritable where it may be a good idea to save those tanks would be a reorganization of the Federal Reserve System. Because, if the Federal Government had to put the Federal Reserve System is a private bank through bankruptcy and reorganization. Then the Federal Government would be more interested in restarting the U.S. Economy and not what things cost. Since the Federal Government have the power to generate credit again and not have to just rely on the tax payer to pay for things. Then designing external tanks that are intended to have a second use after they be primary use by the shuttle.

But, without some realignment like this within the United States and the U.S. Government, even I don't see saving those external tanks.

Larry,

comstar03 · 2004-08-30 20:01:31

GCNRevenger,

I am talking about Battlefield Computer systems that are designed for those conditions. That is why you get information from Canadian Shuttle Arm designers on the environment specifications they used to develop the ISS Robotic Arm because that would be based on new data from all the shuttle missions after creation of the first series robotic arm.

I Know that the environment in space is an extreme location but can use standard components with protection for that environment.

If you use 486 (100mhz) based systems then you get the results of those slower systems, If you use a P4 ( 3000mhz) systems with large EPROM ( erasable programmable read only memory ) and Large active RAM for operating tasks you will get a increased results in precision, tasks performed, and reduced time expended to perform those tasks. also using fibre optics for interlinks from components and communication subsystems will provide reduced time to transfer volume information to systems, allowing telepresence systems to act in real-time.

Again the cost for the prototype will be high 300-600 $M but the mass produced versions will be under 20 $M each because all you are doing is copying the prototype not working out all the issues. The other main cost is the droid transporter for earth orbit. Each Droid team will be different in the capabilities - heavy build team, finishing team, general contustion team, service team, and more.

comstar03 · 2004-08-30 20:15:19

GCNRevenger ,

The Second Part of the WHY ? - That's ok, if NASA and current space programs don't want to go that way and develop telerobotic team technology, Private Enterprise will.

Private Enterprise will then build into space at a lower cost base than any space program running a human spaceflight program because of safety issues, Staff Payroll Costs, Return costs and more and more. Eventually private enterprise will move humans into space but then there is a reason for they there. at the beginning there isn't a reason. ( cold hard fact as a businessman )

Even if, private enterprise is decades behind the start of space exploration they will overtake governments because they look at the best return on their resources for the task at hand. And it will be fun to watch your comments over the next years as private enterprises expand into the space frontier and over take the space development. Eventually Government Agencies will then ask to use private enterprises vessels and services for activities and not build their own.

SpaceNut · 2004-08-30 21:15:19

It has taken 40 years plus just to get to where nasa started with human flight not robotic. With that pace we will all be dead before private industry will even try for orbital flight even if it were robotic. No destination for human endevers means no need for heavy lift and no need for infrastructure.

Oh by the way when you go to a place like McD's or Burger k do you throw out the plastic cups for the large soft drink as it is miningless when though.. Think poor and the jobs will get done. Recycle as much as you can or as often as you can when possible. Things do have value but maybe not to deep pockets. They can just get or ask for more.

comstar03 · 2004-08-30 21:49:27

YOU HAVE GOT A BET, SPACENUT

I will remember those comments, SpaceNut, and I will be waiting for you to eat crow, I will make this promise that private enterprise will have a foothold in space within the next 10 years and on mars within 25 years without help from any current space agency.

SpaceNut · 2004-08-31 05:49:01

I would gladly eat crow though I was not intending for a bet if it meant that some company would finally do space the right way at minimal cost and often for all. But I have been since the Apollo era wishing for such a trip myself.

I stayed up many a night watching the old black and white video of them on the moon and have seen the chance for that to happen slip away with the years.

Nasa appears unwilling to share the space knowledge it has gained from that era and the many years that have followed under the cloak of national security and of fear. Nasa has shown time and time again that it can do better than what they are doing with the examples of there space probes but they have floundered since there last trip to the moon so many years ago.

So lets look at what is needed by private industry to get to space since it would be developing it from scratch.
1 cryrogenic fuels and oxidizers facilities
2 solid fuels or other fuels for initial stage boost
3 machining capability to create the tanks for the fuel
4 launch pad and support infrastruture
5 rocket assembly an construction buildings
6 licencing documents
7 funding

I sure this list is much longer than I have but it highlights some of the difficulties in front of the private companies to come.

comstar03 · 2004-08-31 07:42:41

SpaceNut,

And more and more,

Yes, I understand how you are looking at this, I am not going to give you detail on the process but it will have!!!!!. In order to keep the USA Authorities and other government autorities from detecting the creation of a large space corporation it is built in layers of unconnected corporations across the globe.

By the time they will find out it would be too late to commence action to stop the formation. When that happens the combine group would come together in seconds.

I will give you a clue, the name I use has a meaning, and secondly, The timeline I have outline within the bulletin board I am right on track.

SpaceNut · 2004-08-31 08:16:21

Well keep the cat in the bag and I will pretend to be one of the monkeys with his ears and eyes covered.

Thanks for changing the gloom to sunshine.

SpaceNut · 2004-08-31 08:35:49

Thanks to Andy McSorley for info on as posted from another site.

Boeings plans for Heavy Lift are taking shape. See Links

http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/spa … flash.html

http://www.spacecongress.org/2004/Panel-4/2Collins.pdf

Thanks to the Orbiter Simulator Forum members for finding these.

http://www.orbitersim.com/

With this I've been flying the CEV already :-)

GCNRevenger · 2004-08-31 09:39:16

Interesting... Boeing's Delta-IV HLV can hit the 40MT sweet spot just with fatter fuel tanks and a quartet of small SRBs... that would match the capacity of the Saturn-IV, the vehicle which would have performed the Earth-orbit-rendevous Apollo mission most likly... If the USAF is going to get into the space weapons business, they'd like this too. A 40MT rocket was originally slated to carry the Zenith Star "Star Wars" laser defense satelite if memory serves.

Martian Republic · 2004-08-31 19:50:22

GCNRevenger ,
The Second Part of the WHY ? - That's ok, if NASA and current space programs don't want to go that way and develop telerobotic team technology, Private Enterprise will.
Private Enterprise will then build into space at a lower cost base than any space program running a human spaceflight program because of safety issues, Staff Payroll Costs, Return costs and more and more. Eventually private enterprise will move humans into space but then there is a reason for they there. at the beginning there isn't a reason. ( cold hard fact as a businessman )
Even if, private enterprise is decades behind the start of space exploration they will overtake governments because they look at the best return on their resources for the task at hand. And it will be fun to watch your comments over the next years as private enterprises expand into the space frontier and over take the space development. Eventually Government Agencies will then ask to use private enterprises vessels and services for activities and not build their own.

I wish private enterprise could do it.

But, I have not seen anything that would inspire confidence that they can do it or much of anything in space without government help.

After the Apollo projects, I been hearing private enterprise bragging that they can take over the space business and do a better job than the government. For over thirty years you private enterprise people have been all mouth and not action. If you guys can do even half of what you claim you can do in space, then come back and brag about it and I will be glade to congratulate you on what you done.

The truth of the matter is, unless the government break ground up for you, you people in the private sector that has these big ideas will go nowhere.

You have several fundamental flaws in your plan that you refuse to acknowledge exist and they are:

1. You can't get the funding for your projects in large enough amounts.
2. You can't build the infrastructure to support space colonization.
3. You can't run your space colony or colonies as a company corporation enterprise, because you need fresh money from outside the company and not just recycling the company money from inside the company.
4. You don't have a customer base or the industrial base to support your colony or recover your investment nor is there any possibility that you could build one.
5. You can not recover your investment and make a profit on any major project that you do in space whether it be robotic or human colonization. The more you invest, the more you have to make to try to cover your investment and the more you will have to invest to try to cover that investment. But, the fact of the matter is, your going to keep getting further and further behind until you go bankrupt.

Any one of these five things will sink you plan without the aid of the other four to help in sinking your plan. So you don't have a viable plan.

The reason that the government can do it especially if it the United States and they go back to the U.S. Constitution as there base could do it and private enterprise can't is:

1. Under the U.S. Constitution, the U.S. Government generate it own funding or credit to pay for something and they don't need to go outside themselves to get that funding or credit to do some great project.
2. It the Federal, State, City government that build most of the infrastructure down here. They could also choose build that infrastructure up there in space too, especially the U.S. Government operating under the authority of the U.S. Constitution and promoting the principle they represent.
3. The U.S. Government under the Authority of the U.S. Constitution has the Authority to fuse fresh money into the system to expand it and make it run.
4. The U.S. Government doesn't need a customer or an industrial base in space to recover there investment, because they can choose to build one from scratch like they built the Transcontinental Rail Road as an example. Abe Lincoln signed the Transcontinental Rail Road act in 1862. Abe Lincoln decide we needed one in 1832 after hearing about them and what they did. That was before there were any rail roads inside the United State and Abraham Lincoln in power of the President and with the authority of the U.S. Constitution decided to make it so and he did. Private enterprise and independent company can do some very good things, but they can't do things like this. It too big for them.
5. The U.S. Government doesn't have to make a profit and if they operate within certain principle as laid out in the U.S. Constitution and follow the example of Alexander Hamilton and other, the United States will not go bankrupt. Beside they other agenda's like creating new jobs, advancing new technology's and promoting business actives to further "The General Welfare of the American People. If the U.S. Government operate according to the U.S. Constitution which give only the U.S. Government to coin money, generate credit, set the value of that money, levy tariff, etc. They can generate there own credit and then borrow it from themselves. Since they hold the note, they can set the interest, defer, do tax write off on it, loan there credit out to private individual or companies, they can put time limit on there generated note where it goes to "0" or there could just choose to tear the note up and generate some new credit to do something else. They generated the credit or the note and they can decide where it goes and what it going to be used for, that is if the U.S. Government chooses to operate under the U.S. Constitution that is.

The U.S. Government could swish your efforts in so many different ways, it not even funny. Or the could just abstain from doing anything to help your efforts and they will swish your efforts. Because, economic system itself, make it impossible for you to succeed and deck is stacked against you and you can not prevail.

Basically what I'm saying is that the U.S. Government under the Authority of the U.S. Constitution is one of the few power on planet Earth that can change banking system, tax system, credit system, issue contracts, build infrastructure any where they want to, and finance private venture to accomplish there goals. On the initial investment, they don't have to make one dime on it either or recovery anything at all.

Private enterprise can't do this. So there sunk.

Larry,

SpaceNut · 2004-08-31 20:01:18

There is a lot of truth to the points that you make in that the companies in the business have slowly eroded to just a few big ones. Which have swallowed many of the small fishes to get that big. By staying in cohouts with the government and Nasa they have only grown bigger and more costly for all that would want to be the next space explorer. Let alone a colonist excluding the few with the cash to become tourist.

SpaceNut · 2004-08-31 20:27:48

Some more truth seeking from the GAO. They are seeking Details from NASA Employees in this Agency Audit. The investigation is reaching out to NASA employees who might have concerns about the agency's spending practices or its billing interactions with contractors, but are afraid to speak up. Maybe a lattle early to cheer but if it leads to lower cost in doing space flights keep digging.

http://space.com/news/nasa_gao_040831.html

comstar03 · 2004-09-01 01:31:54

Martian Republic,

You think small Larry, I know exactly how to generate the funds required and that is my current process it will take a few years to build all the inforastructure to create the funding mechanisms, but the fun part is doing it without other people's knowledge.

To clarify your statements , any one person or corporation can generate money and create legal notes, It depends on the creditability of the underlying assets. The Treasury Notes and US Currency are based on the ability of US Government to back those with Gold or other commodities.

The same can be done by corporations eg. The British Sterling are printed by Commercial Banks in Scotland , one of those banks are owned by an Australian Bank, that still doesn't mean they can't print the documents.

Regarding Infrstructure

I noted that , yes the use is using 40+ years of infrastructure in space development, and yes they have the expertise, again doesn't mean they can't be caught up and passed, the Chinese are doing that right now in many parts of their economy using our own technology to catch and pass us.

Investment in Space

Do you now the difference in return of capital outlay and asset appreciation ? My assets thus ownership of objects grow thus my asset base grows thus my financial postion grows thus when I need to draw on loans or revolving credit facilities to fund expansion I can because of the asset value. Also Larry, we have $B dollar corporations on earth but when private enterprise goes in space there will be $T (1,000,000,000,000.00 Dollars ) or even $P ( 1,000,000,000,000,000.00 Dollars ) valued corporations a $P Corporation would have the resources of asteroids to value, moonbase, and marsbase mining facilities and more making about 4 $T Income. That is equivalent to USA Gross Domestic Product (GDP) and Income equivalent to US Government Budget. Those corporation could bring 100-500$B in revolving credit easy.

I am working on corporation development, that might take my life time to truly realise its full potential but in the next 20 years be able to fund the little projects that NASA are currently developing.

Martian Republic ( Larry ), I know you don't think that is possible well, Meryll ynch became a 1$T Fund manager on earth. Don't think its not possible because it is when you put the right conditions together.

SpaceNut · 2004-09-01 19:46:17

NASA Selects Contractors for Exploration Studies for preliminary concept studies for human lunar exploration and the development of the (CEV) crew exploration vehicle.

Quite the hows how list for both actions on
Six months studies.
http://www.comspacewatch.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=14924

New web site comspacewatch related to the nasawatch site and of spaceref.

comstar03 · 2004-09-01 22:18:56

SpaceNut, I like it when NASA agrees with about robotic droids for the lunar surface, but these will be simple droids.

comstar03 · 2004-09-01 22:22:44

SpaceNut,

That article lists the concept studies of CEV, to start thinking about a CEV, and minimum of 6 months with a possible additional 6 months.

Then scale modelling , then alpha testing, and beta testing unmanned then finally human testing, before operational , that will take another 6-8 years, meanwhile we are sitting on our bottoms and thinking its nice we are doing something.

GCNRevenger · 2004-09-02 07:50:14

Six years... thats about how long it will take to finish the ISS and Shuttle will be retired. Sounds okay to me.

New Mars Forums

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#51 2004-08-29 21:59:22

Re: Post central for information on CEV 2 - ...continue here.

#52 2004-08-29 23:48:38

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#53 2004-08-30 04:17:10

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#54 2004-08-30 06:18:32

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#57 2004-08-30 11:28:20

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#58 2004-08-30 19:50:23

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#62 2004-08-30 21:49:27

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#64 2004-08-31 07:42:41

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#66 2004-08-31 08:35:49

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#71 2004-09-01 01:31:54

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#72 2004-09-01 19:46:17

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#73 2004-09-01 22:18:56

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#74 2004-09-01 22:22:44

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#75 2004-09-02 07:50:14

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